Community Vote on "Cottaging" Powers?

[Galaxy Brain]

Less a suggestion and more a thought, but the community at large kinda identifies a bunch of powers as bad either through just common knowledge or even backed by the data mining done by HC devs. If it came to it, would it be acceptable to have a community vote on the fate of such powers?

 

This is not to say a community vote on what exactly is done per say. A vote on something like, "yeah, we all agree that serum is bad and should be replaced by devs" or the like could be acceptable. 

 

Thoughts?

[VileTerror]

Counter proposal:  Leave the Powers as-is, and make new, mutually exclusive Powers available in the same set, a la Sentinel Practiced Brawler and Master Brawler.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Counter proposal:  Leave the Powers as-is, and make new, mutually exclusive Powers available in the same set, a la Sentinel Practiced Brawler and Master Brawler.

@Captain Powerhouse has stated that is off the table iirc

[Lazarillo]

I voted "no, never", though I would give this a slight qualifier.  No functionality within a powerset should ever be replaced.  For example, let's look at Electric Manipulation for Blasters.  Presently, it has Force of Thunder as its sustain, Disorienting and Knocking back enemies while granting Regeneration and Recovery to the user.  If they wanted to make the sustain less offense-depending, they could, say, move the buff aspect of the ability, to Power Sink or Lightning Field, or move the status effect to Thunder Strike, just an example.  Within the 9 powers of Electric Manipulation, you have not replaced any functionality, so that, IMO, is fair.  But I don't think either effect should be removed entirely from those playing the set to buff the other effect.

[Leogunner]

It always seems to be a good idea to change up a power you don't like...until they come for the powers you do like.

[Galaxy Brain]

7 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

It always seems to be a good idea to change up a power you don't like...until they come for the powers you do like.

Which is why I personally lean on the backed up by data option. That at least empirically shows that these powers are actively not taken for a reason.

[Troo]

26 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Captain Powerhouse has stated that is off the table iirc

Given this, I'm stuck.

Wanted to vote don't touch existing powers, but energy transfer should be addressed and there are appropriate adjustments that could be made for many powers.

I would definitely be in favor of data driven decisions. Should there be formal playerbase votes.. could try it.

[Myrmidon]

It doesn’t matter. The cottage (cheese) rule can be set aside at any time by the Devs if they feel it’s necessary. Those are Castle’s own words. This means that Captain Powerhouse has final say, which is awesome since he definitely takes our opinions into account.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Myrmidon

[Doc_Scorpion]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Which is why I personally lean on the backed up by data option. That at least empirically shows that these powers are actively not taken for a reason.

Data doesn't tell you why the power is actively not taken though.  I wager most of the blasts in the defender sets would show up as "not taken", but wouldn't show the "why" (many folks play 'fenders as pure support as opposed to any problem with the power).

[Sakura Tenshi]

Honestly, I think the cottage rule isn't a bad rule because there's a lot more leeway in it than people think. I'm going to use Healing Triage from Traps as an example:

 

What the cottage rule says you basically cannot due to Triage would be to remove it's healing aspect (note: just the healing aspect, not if it's regen or a heal) to turn it into something like a damage buff, or a defense/res buff, or anything like that.

 

• Up the regen
• Turn it into a HoT
• Make it a locational AoE drop
• Turn it into a following heal pet
• Add a +recovery. damage, tohit, defense, resistance, or any other number of buffs
• Also make it into an immobile gun sentry that shoots incoming enemies while healing teammates

Basically, as I understand the 'Cottage Rule', the reality is that as long as you keep the core elements (like retain the enhancements/IO sets that can be slotted into it) you can make all kinds of changes. So Build Up could build up a cottage, it just has to do that on top of it's existing function.

[Leogunner]

23 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Which is why I personally lean on the backed up by data option. That at least empirically shows that these powers are actively not taken for a reason.

And even if that data proves what you say but you still like and want to use that power?

 

Frankly, I don't give a damn what data proves, if it's between me using Shadow Maul and me not being able to use it or have some mutated min/maxed version that is devoid of the aspect that makes me like the power, I'd prefer a new set be created where you can have new powers.

 

As is, I don't like Rage and don't play Super Strength at all.  I can think of various ways to fix the set but I try to leave it all as hypothetical ponderings because I don't even play the set so it's no skin off my back if the set goes unchanged or not.

 

This is a different story when talking about powerset proliferation tho.  If the powerset doesn't exist on an AT, it's free chicken to change some of the powerset.

[Myrmidon]

21 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

As is, I don't like Rage and don't play Super Strength at all.  I can think of various ways to fix the set but I try to leave it all as hypothetical ponderings because I don't even play the set so it's no skin off my back if the set goes unchanged or not.

As a Super Strength practitioner for the entire time before The Snap and not at all in Homecoming for the annoyance factor that Rage invokes in me, I can’t wait to see the change that eventually occurs to that set.

[Lines]

I'm liking the thread that's talking about the scrapper confront. That's one power that could go full cottage.

 

Other than that, I really can't think of any that I'd put against the firing line.

 

Sakura is right that the cottage rule doesn't shackle the ideas down, as long as the identity of the power is intact.

[arcane]

I voted no. Some of the least popular powers in the game are integral to certain builds. See Sonic Cage, Detention Field, or Confront in PvP builds for example. And doesn’t anyone else ever appreciate having more room for pool powers? A wide open build in terms of power choices is a godsend.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I voted no. Some of the least popular powers in the game are integral to certain builds. See Sonic Cage, Detention Field, or Confront in PvP builds for example. And doesn’t anyone else ever appreciate having more room for pool powers? A wide open build in terms of power choices is a godsend.

I dont get the latter half of this, at least in terms of what it's trying to say. Are you saying that it's a good thing there are powers so bad that youd rather get pool powers every time, since those bad powers make it easy to pick something better?

[Rathulfr]

19 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I dont get the latter half of this, at least in terms of what it's trying to say. Are you saying that it's a good thing there are powers so bad that youd rather get pool powers every time, since those bad powers make it easy to pick something better?

 

Yes, I believe so.  God forbid they ever make Energy Torrent or Power Push useful for Energy Blasters (Power Push is actually good on Energy Sentinels), because that would mean I'd have to reconsider always skipping those automatically in favor of a defense toggle.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Monos King]

24 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I voted no. Some of the least popular powers in the game are integral to certain builds. See Sonic Cage, Detention Field, or Confront in PvP builds for example. And doesn’t anyone else ever appreciate having more room for pool powers? A wide open build in terms of power choices is a godsend.

This seems rather silly; you are pretty much saying you don't like having multiple options that are useful enough that you have to decide between them. That's just indecisiveness, it doesn't hamper or remove an open build.

[Super Atom]

This needs the option "Cottage rule is stupid, the game changes and so to should certain abilities".

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I dont get the latter half of this, at least in terms of what it's trying to say. Are you saying that it's a good thing there are powers so bad that youd rather get pool powers every time, since those bad powers make it easy to pick something better?

No, he's saying "unpopular" != "bad" and that "unpopular" != "requires fixing".

[biostem]

Just because people want something, even unanimously, doesn't make it right/correct:  Argumentum ad populum

[Super Atom]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

Just because people want something, even unanimously, doesn't make it right/correct:  Argumentum ad populum

You're not wrong but you're also missing the point. if 100% of the coh player base was like "sprint should also give you a small defense bonus", then the correct decision on a developers part would be to give sprint a defense bonus. This is a video game, not a country.

[Haijinx]

20 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

As a Super Strength practitioner for the entire time before The Snap and not at all in Homecoming for the annoyance factor that Rage invokes in me, I can’t wait to see the change that eventually occurs to that set.

Is this another rage thread?

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

You're not wrong but you're also missing the point. if 100% of the coh player base was like "sprint should also give you a small defense bonus", then the correct decision on a developers part would be to give sprint a defense bonus. This is a video game, not a country.

But, to take your example, *why* would 100% of the player base want sprint to grant a defense bonus, (and let's be honest - you're not going to get 100% of the player base to agree on something like that)?  What if they wanted it so it's easier to soft cap defense?  Maybe, even if everybody wanted it, it's still not the right thing to do...

[MunkiLord]

I'd only ever consider this if dynamic respecs became a thing. I don't mind adjusting my build. But having to do an entire respec and figure my power trays and slot every single power again sounds is something I really don't like to do.

[Super Atom]

Just now, biostem said:

But, to take your example, *why* would 100% of the player base want sprint to grant a defense bonus, (and let's be honest - you're not going to get 100% of the player base to agree on something like that)?  What if they wanted it so it's easier to soft cap defense?  Maybe, even if everybody wanted it, it's still not the right thing to do...

Random example doesn't matter.

 

Stamina was once in this situation, nearly all agreed that it should be changed because everyone needed it. They agreed and changed it, everyone wanted it and it was the right decision. This is a video game, usually the cry of the majority is in the right. If it's so painfully obivous something is wrong that a large majority of the player base (who can't agree on anything) agree to it, it's very likely the right choice.