A Scrapper's view

[Aracknight]

So I main an MA/SR scrapper, but I was always amazed when I teamed with Tanks that really knew their craft.  Not necessarily the "pull to here" guys, but more the ones that controlled the battlefield just by being there.  I was interested in learning that craft, so I built a Mark II SR/MA (god that feels weird to type!) alt to give it a go.

 

Now, I didn't grind up the old fashioned way, which maybe was my mistake.  I doorsat in AE missions to hit 50 and then built out the same basic build as my scrapper, using Tanker ATOs instead of Scrapper ones obviously where applicable.  Being an experienced SR Scrapper, I had a good feel for how survivable it was, and higher Def (50+ without breaking a sweat, plus the bonus from Storm Kick on top of that) and Hit Points just increased my overall confidence.  I had the same experience with dealing damage, with Controller-level Assault making up a lot  of the ground between Tanker and Scrapper damage, so my solo experience was virtually the same between the two archetypes.  Exception:  I didn't have to chase mobs!  They stood there all mad and I just kicked them down without having to run after them.  That was the best!

 

And Then Came Teaming.

 

I was clear in meeting folks and in my bio that I was a newbie at being a Tanker because it was important to me that I be up front about it, considering my level and set bonuses.  What I learned though, was that Tanking Vs Scrapping was doing a number on my mindset.

 

As a Scrapper, I lived by the six second rule, and I expected others did too.  So, as a Scrapper, my mindset was "Screw it, I'm going losers.  Do the other half of the map if you want."

 

As a Tanker, I was....hesitant is the closest word.  Instead of "Screw it, I'm going," it was more "D-do I go?  Is everyone ready?  Is the last group handled?  Do I wait till all of the last group is defeated?"  I paid way more attention to my team's status than I ever had before and it was super distracting.  As a Scrapper it was an afterthought:  "Oh, you guys all died?  It's fine, I got this while you were recovering."  As a Tanker it was a bigger responsibility than this Lone Wolf was ready for.  I felt like if anyone ate floor, it was gonna be my fault and THEY WERE ALL GONNA YELL AT ME.

 

So my first few missions as a Tank were like that.  Stressful and full of more responsibility than I was ready for.  I was about to cash it in and just go back to being my normal Solo Scrappus Devastatus self, when I got a tell that thanked me for "taking care of my squishy self, I couldn't have made it without you."

 

It felt pretty good.

 

I'm not sure I want to be a Tanker Main yet.  It's a hell of a change from being a Scrapper since I8 retail.  But it was a good challenge and a good experience when it was all said and done.

 

Did anyone else feel this way when they first tried Tanking?

[Heraclea]

I tend to be more cautious than many in rushing ahead to the next spawn, mostly because I dislike having travel powers on in instances, but more importantly because I don't like to leave bosses in the backfield.  If a scrapper or brute wants to go their own way or eat the alpha I don't mind.  I view my role as being more about shepherding the team through the instance while keeping PC defeats to a minimum. 

 

Roll back your field of view as far as the map allows.  Be mindful of bosses that are slow to fall.  Get a feel of who the most vulnerable teammates are and stand by them.  Watch what the pets are doing, if you can see around 'em.  The pets, and not the person with the star, are the real leaders of the team.  Try and get as much aggro as you can, and especially try to monopolize the attention of the biggest threats.  Take Taunt and lead with it, especially if you have spawns like Council with plinkers who won't come.  Then save it for when needed.  Break line of sight when you are able, and there will be many times you won't be able. 

[VV]

I've played nearly all the ATs (minus a couple VEATs) and in my experience, the level of team responsibility of least to most runs Scrapper to Tanker. You made a big leap there. There are a variety of Tanker playstyles. I find the most fun and fastest to be the "keep the team moving forward" style. Then again, Fire is my jam, so that may make be biased. I lead out, jump in a group, get them all centered on me, wait till the control & DPS roll in, then move on when about 80% of the original spawn are down to set up the next group. If the next group is close enough, I will bring them over to take advantage of the already set DoT AoEs. For me, there should be no pause between groups.

 

I rarely use the actual "Taunt" power because it is slow and doesn't do damage. If I see someone's health dip, I have a keybind set up to target a Taunt through them. This only works if they are targeting their attacker, but it also means I can get over them with a quick F to assess their situation. I keep it very mobile and my head on a swivel.

 

One of the keys to remember about being a Tanker is that killing is not your job, that is what your minions (sometimes called other PCs) are for. You are there to assess the battlefield and make adjustments as you see fit. This means that, at times, you might be *gasp* NOT attacking. I know that is anathema to a Scrapper, but sometimes you need to just stand there are look around to see if there are any opponents wandering off, or an incoming extra-aggro, or health dropping, or where the next closest group is so you can set up your next opening, or whatever.

 

The *only* time I will ever use a corner-pull strategy is when I am with a group that is in over its head, but doesn't want to leave and reset to a lower difficulty.

 

While we are on the subject, as a Scrapper, if you focus on Boss/LT killing, that would be great. Like I said, I like to move on when the group is about 80% dead, that tends to mean only the bosses and Lts are left. If the Scrapper jumps in and targets those first, then they die about the same time as everything else, minimizing danger. I know most Scrappers do that, but it's worth mentioning.

 

Whatever you do, do NOT do what I have seen many tankers do, and stand there beating down the last guy before moving on. Leave that for a Scrapper/Blaster who can probably one shot it. Also, if you have to stop and wait to see if your team is all assembled at each group, also a huge waste of time. As you are moving between groups, glance up at their HP. All good? Good go ahead and get started. Looking a little red-ish? You moved on too soon and need to head back. But, anytime I am not the tank and I see a tank stop and do a full spin before starting a new group, I know they are not good at awareness, and will usually jump ahead on my Controller/Dominater/Blaster to keep things moving.

 

Anyway, welcome to the fun and thanks for actually being a considerate leader!

[Aracknight]

That's good advice!

 

Looking back, I did have more fun with Tanks that I had to work to keep up with, so moving on to the next group while only a couple mobs linger from the last one sounds like the way I want to go.

 

Pulling back the view is a good one, I usually reserve that for when I'm in a PVP zone, but this makes sense to me contextually, so I can try that.

 

"Pets and minions" makes me see now for the first time how the Devs thought that Masterminds were the Tanker Analog for redside, lol.

 

Letting go of the idea that I have to be attacking at all times will be challenging, but I will have to work at that.  Virtually all of my CoH experience is in Scrappering, and changing that will be the hardest I think.  I do enjoy the AOE immobilizes that PPP/APPs offer though, so jumping in, throwing some Mu lightning fences and hitting a Dragon's Tail (or vice versa) and checking the status of how the squad is doing before moving on sounds like a fun place for me to start.

 

I'm learning that while Scrappers are super focused Math Monsters that like to push the edge and solo the world, Tankers have to expand their world view and consider others a bit more carefully.  I believe that after all these years, this could be a worthy thing to learn.

 

It's a bit more pressure that I feel though.  It's odd that I can feel completely fearless about attempting (and succeeding!) to solo Ruladak on a solo Fathim TF, but I worry about letting people down by failing to keep an AV's attention as a Tank in a group.  Hopefully it's something that experience will alleviate!

 

Thank you so much for your feedback, and if you have any other pointers, I'm happy to hear them.

 

See you in the city!

[Scranker]

For some stress-free fun, you should join in on some of the all-Tanker team mayhem on any of the Tanker Tuesdays. Everyone's responsible for their own aggro and survival. So if someone goes down, it's custom to point it out and laugh (in comradely-teasing fashion) at them. And if you have any questions, you can pick the brains of experienced Tankers in real time.

[Redlynne]

I've always thought of Tankers as being Aggro Magnets first and foremost.  Your job is to ATTRACT ATTENTION and then survive it so everyone else can "do their thing" without peeling aggro off you.

 

Perhaps the simplest way to figure when it's time to move on to the next group to gather their attention would be that once you're down to only 3 mobs left from a spawn group, just Taunt them with your Target AoE Taunt and then move to the next group so that the mobs you just taunted have to CHASE YOU while your team is sniping them down for you.  You then establish Aggro Magnetism on the next group and just Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

 

Also, this post might possibly be of interest to you ... [v2.0] SR/MA ... NO GET HITSU!!

😎

[Glowworm]

I like tanks on my team because, without conversation, I make certain assumptions:

Tank - will eat the alpha; may control aggro, may do significant damage

Scrappers, Stalkers - will kill bosses; may kill lots of other stuff

Controllers, Dominators - will mitigate damage overall through control; may eat alphas, may buff/debuff, may do significant damage

Defenders, Corrupters - will...do stuff that's good for the party; watch and see, alpha eating, good damage, damage mitigation, and more are possible but not obvious from just the AT.

 

I get that there is more complex content but for pugs. just having someone who can eat the alpha and everyone knows they will eat the alpha is a huge efficiency boost. I am very happy to have a tank on my pug for that reason regardless of anything else they bring.

[Sir Myshkin]

10 hours ago, VV said:

I rarely use the actual "Taunt" power because it is slow and doesn't do damage.

I wanted to highlight something important about this with the recent Tanker changes that are now live. AoE's and essentially anything that a) does damage, and b) takes accuracy to hit a target effectively has Taunt bursts that ring out like constant shock waves of "HIT ME, HIT ME" all over the place for Tankers. Now not just Taunt is a truly viable option to aggressively grab aggro. Yes these components were present before, but the rework has massively improved the overall capability of a Tanker to reach out and TAUNT enemies.

 

Keeping that in mind, being cognizant of all tools available will maximize overall ability to manage any battlefield consistently.

 

As a personal add about Tanking in general: In the realm of Incarnate Insanity, don't be surprised if another player (of any AT) jumps ahead of you. There's "being the Tank" and there's "being Point." If someone jumps ahead and struggles to deal with the aggro they obtain, that's on them, and if it negatively impacts the team then don't be afraid to have that conversation. There are some cases, though as others have talked about with "pets lead the team", I play a Storm Defender that absolutely rushes the next spawn because Tornado doesn't give a flipped trailer who is on first, it will aggro whatever it pleases. I take ownership of the path it takes, and collectively the Tornado and I tear a pretty heavy course through a map. It's nothing against the Tank, but I just don't have time to wait for them to alpha the next spawn, my invulnerable wind storm does that just fine on its own. So be a Tank, manage aggro, protect the team (as a whole), you don't have the be the first thing in the next spawn if you can instantly grab the overflow when you get there and manage it.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Sir Myshkin

[Bill Z Bubba]

I had one tank back before the snap. She rarely got playtime but I liked her, kinda.

 

I've got 6 tanks now. Some are soon to be deleted but my play style has changed over the years.

 

Yea, BZB the scrap is still my main, always will be, but as we age things change. We change. That comes out in how we spend our time. Nowadays... I kind of like taking care of the team more than I used to. Hell... I TEAM more than I used to.

[Sovera]

I'll be honest with you: tanking is a state of mind, not an AT.

 

I've had a recent stint as a Stalker and while fun I could just not get into the mindset of having mobs ignore me and wander off. Now I'm leveling a(nother) Scrapper and I was confiding to a friend how much I was enjoying once again grabbing agro (weak(er) agro aura sed agro aura), which led me back to how I usually play the game: jump into a pack, brush myself against all the mobs like a cat marking territory, settle down hitting the hardest thing while unleashing AoEs. Everything nice and clustered, keep an eye on squishies and their HP (it's pretty common to see that the team split up and someone's HP is dropping and for me to drop everything and run over to help before things reach their lethal end). Once just a few minions left jump ahead for the next group so the team arrives and finds a nice clustered ball of NPCs. Repeat.

 

I'd say don't feel -obliged- to play a Tanker to be a tank.

[Snarky]

Being a good team center is more just “doing it”. Whatever build or even AT you do it with. Tanks just have the best tools for it

 

it comes from knowing the game and playing in a manner that is helpful to teammates.  See a group of teammates fighting ten baddies as you race to another part of the mission where the “leader” is? ....stop. Taunt. Attack.  Help them clear that.  Then move as a group to the leader.  It is a very team conscious style of play. For a melee that does not necessarily come natural

 

also it goes back to experience. Knowing the mobs. Memorized the building layouts. Knowing the Task Forces. Although there are some late game task forces i do not know well. Those i just fall back to staying with the leaders and coming in like a wet cat at whatever they pause to fight.  But if teammates are struggling to keep up?  I hang back and help. The leader probably has a blinged out 50 who is doing fine. The poor lost souls in the back?  They are gonna be real grateful a Tank happened by to help

 

 

[Gulbasaur]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

I'll be honest with you: tanking is a state of mind, not an AT.

I've noticed a bit of a difference in gameplay between tanker tanks, brute tanks and other tanks.

 

Tankers are tankers because they want to be tanks. Brutes are tanks because they get aggro anyway but really they want to DPS without worrying about anything else. Scrappers are tanks when there's nothing tankier to do the job. Kheldians... exist but they're sort of a different dynamic.

 

Of the groups where a few squishies are left dealing with the bosses because the tank has moved onto the next group, it's almost always a brute who's at fault.

 

Two sidekicked characters are going to struggle against a +4 boss no matter what the situation is - if you're not managing aggro, you're not a tank, you're a noisy scrapper. Not that I have a problem with scrappers, it's just.. well.. you know... those crayons haven't been eating themselves.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Apparition]

7 hours ago, Sovera said:

I'll be honest with you: tanking is a state of mind, not an AT.

 

I've had a recent stint as a Stalker and while fun I could just not get into the mindset of having mobs ignore me and wander off. Now I'm leveling a(nother) Scrapper and I was confiding to a friend how much I was enjoying once again grabbing agro (weak(er) agro aura sed agro aura), which led me back to how I usually play the game: jump into a pack, brush myself against all the mobs like a cat marking territory, settle down hitting the hardest thing while unleashing AoEs. Everything nice and clustered, keep an eye on squishies and their HP (it's pretty common to see that the team split up and someone's HP is dropping and for me to drop everything and run over to help before things reach their lethal end). Once just a few minions left jump ahead for the next group so the team arrives and finds a nice clustered ball of NPCs. Repeat.

 

I'd say don't feel -obliged- to play a Tanker to be a tank.

 

This.  I regularly tank on my Dual Pistols/Temporal Manipulation Blaster, even if there is a Brute or Tanker on the team.  I regularly kill whole groups of mobs, so if there is only one or two mobs left, I'm jumping to the next group of mobs, taking the alpha, and mowing them down.  Rinse, repeat.

[Sailboat]

One caveat - while it's useful to examine the next spawn while the current one is beating on you, be sure to coordinate with your team.  Occasionally I am tanking Spawn A and I examine Spawn B, and just while I'm thinking "oh, a Sapper coming up," some unfortunate soul targets through the Tanker (me) and pops the Sapper with something inadequate to kill or mezz him, and then a Bad Thing^TM happens.  So it might be worth checking if anyone intends to target through you and if so, be careful what you tab through.

[Snarky]

I just eyeball groups. My tab targeting skills are poor. My comp seems to reset the damn things everytime anyways. And i can tell at a glance the mob group makeup and who i bate most in it. Sometimes i ru. Over a poor cim engineer instead if a surgeon but i can luve with that

[Myrmidon]

In the end, the only thing that matters is that you control the majority of the aggro. Even if the Controllers are instantly spamming immobilizes, teammates launching tons of Knockback, it doesn’t matter. Those things will actually help give you experience to be a better Tanker. It’s not about herding mobs into nuke piles, it’s about controlling aggro to keep you team alive.

And those sweet, sweet AoEs.

[Snarky]

Yeah i see a tank more like the Dwarf King cousin in Battle of 5 armies Hobbit movie.  Just chatting. Occasionally smacking the crap out of something but mostly keeping an eye on the flow and being irritating  

Edited February 7, 2020 by Snarky

[gurugeorge]

I always found Tanker to be the hardest AT to play, mainly because (if you take the job seriously) you have to have tip-top situational awareness, knowledge of maps, mob types, etc.  And then on top of that, you have to deal diplomatically with all the different personality types, ATs, idiosyncratic playstyles, etc., as well.  Oddly enough, it's probably the most cerebral playstyle in the game.

 

I've always thought of the Tanker as almost a sort of melee Controller - IOW, a battlefield-shaper who just happens to work in melee range.

[Redlynne]

I've posted these before on these forums, but it seems like a good idea to cross-post them here.

 

TheHiveLeader's Guide to:

Tanking

Healing

DPS

[Heraclea]

On 2/5/2020 at 11:58 PM, Sir Myshkin said:

I wanted to highlight something important about this with the recent Tanker changes that are now live. AoE's and essentially anything that a) does damage, and b) takes accuracy to hit a target effectively has Taunt bursts that ring out like constant shock waves of "HIT ME, HIT ME" all over the place for Tankers. Now not just Taunt is a truly viable option to aggressively grab aggro. Yes these components were present before, but the rework has massively improved the overall capability of a Tanker to reach out and TAUNT enemies.

 

Learn to love Salt Crystals.....

[Myrmidon]

On 2/9/2020 at 6:17 PM, gurugeorge said:

 

I've always thought of the Tanker as almost a sort of melee Controller - IOW, a battlefield-shaper who just happens to work in melee range.

That’s a perfect way to look at it.