Why don't you play on the Villain Side?

[quixoteprog]

I just don't find Redside all that compelling. Part of that is the problem in finding a group when I need one, because the zones are all so low on player. But the real reason is that the game designers really missed the boat on designing villain content.

 

The original game had an awful economy. Mainly, I guess, because the designers just HATED the concept of loot and wanted to not have any economy at all but realized that they had to have one and half assed one with enhancements and influence. Real HEROES would not be concerned with money. They were noble and wanted only to do good and money was for greedy people. Besides, until the invention system came around what would you spend money on anyway? Buying the exact same set of enhancements every five levels?

 

Then came CoV. A game expansion full of people who were SUPPOSED to be greedy and obsessed with material wealth and power. Did they develop an economy for them that reflected this? That would allow them to amass wealth, and thus power, and have way to reflect their status? No, they made the economy of CoV a very simple mirror image of CoH with only a slightly different name for the money.

 

The rational for implementing such a simple and bland economy in CoH was very thin but you could kind of see it if you squinted hard enough. It was really just a thinly veiled attempt to keep people from grinding and farming, which they did anyway. But in CoV there was absolutely no reason, no justification, for this kind of economy. It was just lazy.

 

You may think this is a minor point. But it is not. In any society money=power. And in a "villain" based society, like that of the Rogue Isles, not having money saps much of the motivation from the story lines. In several stories arcs I did playing Red side they actually MENTION money.

 

In my opinion they reason why CoV never took off and became the savior of the game that they wanted it to be, was simply because the game designers thought they could treat villains like mirror images of heroes with a different color scheme. The story arcs read very differently, but none of that FEELS real to anyone because all of the underpinnings, all of the foundation on which the game is based is just the same.

 

 

[Leogunner]

6 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

 

Irrelevant.  The key takeaway is the the blueside storyline doesn't force you into a narrow and subservient role.  The writing allows for any number of possibilities even if it doesn't allow for all possibilities.

The problem here isn't some "bizarre leap in expectations", it's that there's a fundamental difference between blueside and redside story lines.

 

It is relevant. Like I mentioned, unreasonable expectations arise and everyone wants the story to treat them like big shit. I just don't buy having NPCs brown nosing my character. It's much more immersive if people on an island where the weak are crushed to also act tough. 

 

And the same expectations aren't reflected to Blueside. Like I mentioned before, it's fine but I feel compelled to criticize this hypocrisy. 

[Oubliette_Red]

Don't play on Villain side? Do you really think that this thing would be welcomed on Hero side?

 

 

(Not that it doesn't visit and swim in every available water source...)

😈

 

 

[Wobegone]

Looking at the poll, I'm definitely in the minority.  I simply don't like playing evil characters.  The few times I've played Red Side were redemption characters who eventually became heroes.  This has been true for nearly 40 years of gaming beginning with pen and paper DnD.  The same goes for computer games like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Mass Effect.   I don't have fun playing bad or evil characters.  That said, it HAS been a long time since I ran a redemption character Red Side...…..

[skoryy]

At some point y'all will have to understand that, until substantial work is done to redo redside, the Rogue Isles just won't be that popular.  See also Praetoria.

[Heraclea]

After eight months I finally have a level 50 villain.  But she's only a rogue, so she can also access blueside TFs and such.  Otherwise progress would be too slow.  The character I decided to get serious with badges with is a vigilante. 

 

One problem not really mentioned in the poll is that every other mission seems to have you fighting Arachnos or Longbow.  There are parts of the shared or blueside content that have similar issues: IDF, Warworks, and Neuron Clockwork are just as boring in some hero content.  The devs who made those enemies must have been very proud of them, they used them so often,  But blueside you know where that is and can do something else. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Heraclea

[Solarverse]

• Other (Explained in forum post)

Here is the thing...when the original developers announced they were going to allow red side archetypes play as Heroes and blue side archetypes play as Villains, I instantly knew through educated reasoning that this would be a very bad idea...and the end of red side as we know it. I knew everyone would gravitate to blue side over time, leaving red side a deserted wasteland. I implored the developers to reconsider, stating that one of the primary motives to play red side was the ability to play the unique archetypes that was only playable as a Villain and without that incentive, they would only be creating a huge problem in red side population. 

 

The vast majority of players already played on blue side. It was already a problem before the change. However, it was doable at the time, because that incentive to play red side still remained...no red side, no Villain archetype.

 

There was already a way to play with Heroes in place with Co-op zones such as RWZ. There was even a Task Force that could be played by both factions to unite the Heroes and Villains from time to time. It would have been a far better move to expand this, but sadly, expanding the idea of Co-Op zones was bypassed and they went straight for Going Rogue.

 

After the initial craze had ended, what ended up happening was exactly as I had predicted, players started leaving Red side in favor of Blue side. This was happening on live and is not a unique situation to Homecoming.

 

Sadly, this is not something that can be fixed because the damage has already been done. Because of it, I never play red side unless my SG or close friends ask me to run a Strike Force. Once that is finished, it's right back to blue side I go. Playing red side has lots its value and has lost its luster ever since they allowed Going Rogue to go live. That was a huge mistake, and now that the craze has ended, that huge mistake is very evident.

 

When I tried to warn people about what the outcome of this was going to be, I was basically told to shut up because this is what the players wanted. So be it, I shut up as I was told to do and then I just sit back and watched it all go down exactly as I said it would. Now it's too late, damage has been done and I digress.

[Frostbiter]

This reminds me of one more reason I hate playing Redside. Widows and their 120 second long Smoke Grenades and their recharge debuffs. Nothing ruins my fun like being a blind infant for 2 minutes.

[Dreamboat]

I do have a couple of redside characters, but the highest level one is only in the late 30s. I do enjoy playing as them, but I just have way more fun with my blueside characters. I like being a good guy more! I also find it way easier to come up with concepts for heroic characters than for villainous ones. I sure am a lovely person!

[Itikar]

9 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

The Broker system forces you to grind to access story arcs - which is a major reason for me. To access the better content, you MUST go through arbitrary filler. That was a terrible design choice, in my opinion. Yes, you can do much of it via flashbacks, but it makes it quite disjointed from a storytelling point of view as you constantly hop between different storylines, whereas blueside tends to be more concentrated.

With some exceptions, this system is no longer in place on Homecoming. You can now unlock most villain contacts just by talking to them.

 

That said, I find it quite amusing that for many users the redside zones are depressing, whereas I actually feel that way about most blue zones. There are exceptions such as the Hollows or King's Row, and perhaps Croatoa, but in general I find the great majority of blue areas shallow, hypertrophic and downright uninspiring, whereas most red areas feel to me vibrant and overall more incisive. And that's one of the reasons that makes me gravitate more toward redside.

[Gulbasaur]

2 minutes ago, Itikar said:

With some exceptions, this system is no longer in place on Homecoming. You can now unlock most villain contacts just by talking to them.

I'm still finding a lot of "you need an introduction"-type stuff. Contacts added in later updates are generally open, but there are an awful lot that are locked behind 5 random non-story missions.

 

I agree that a lot f Blueside stuff is a bit uninspiring. Kings Row and Skyway and Steel Talos and Founders Falls and Peregrine Island... all blur together a bit.

[Itikar]

4 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

I'm still finding a lot of "you need an introduction"-type stuff. Contacts added in later updates are generally open, but there are an awful lot that are locked behind 5 random non-story missions.

Some are still like that, yes, oddly enough the most accessible ones like Dmitri Krylov in Cap. Most of those though can be unlocked through other contacts with decent missions, it just might not be the most intuitive mechanism to use. For instance I often unlocked the aforementioned Krylov via Ashley McKnight.

 

And yeah, you nailed my feeling, blue areas are often seen one, seen all. 😕

Edited February 21, 2020 by Itikar

[Leogunner]

9 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

I'm still finding a lot of "you need an introduction"-type stuff. Contacts added in later updates are generally open, but there are an awful lot that are locked behind 5 random non-story missions.

 

I agree that a lot f Blueside stuff is a bit uninspiring. Kings Row and Skyway and Steel Talos and Founders Falls and Peregrine Island... all blur together a bit.

I see you don't enjoy "spaghetti highway zone", "slum urban neighborhood zone" and "bunch of tall close buildings zone". Would an "ice zone" or "lava zone" make your stay better? 

[Coyotedancer]

I do play red side... The first two characters I made on Homecoming were Tavaris and Kaikara, who are both red-native Rogues.

 

That said, I do tend to have more blue siders. As others have already mentioned, it's just easier to find teams in hero-land and its where most of my friends play. I only go red with characters I intend to solo all the way through to 50.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[EmmySky]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

And the same expectations aren't reflected to Blueside. Like I mentioned before, it's fine but I feel compelled to criticize this hypocrisy. 

I just want to take a moment on what you call hypocrisy concerning different expectations for each side.

 

If Superman were running down the street, he would stop a mugging in progress if he saw it.  He would get the kitty out of the tree for the little old lady.  No job too small because the heart of a hero compels them to be helpful.  There are so many levels of heroism that you can explore with blueside.

 

Do you think you would see Lex Luthor running errands for Lord Recluse, much less some of the really low level folks you end up working for redside?  Most people want to be THE villain, not just a lackey to the villain.  There are fewer shades of grey in villain 'culture' than in heroism.  Even if you are happy with the role of lackey, eventually you want to rule it all.  This is not allowed redside.  You are forever a mere henchman.  When do I get to take LRs head and mount it on my wall to strike fear into those who should fear me?

 

The game is based on comic books and while I am FAR from an expert on comic books, even I know that there are heroes who do great deeds and heroes doing lesser deeds all the way down to the heroes who merely get a kitty out of a tree, but that there are very rarely villains that are content to remain lackeys or henchman to a greater power and those that are usually are portrayed as...well...three fries short of a happy meal.

 

It isn't hypocrisy to have different expectations from games that promise different things.  City of Heroes promises I can be a hero and I can be a hero.  City of Villains promises me I can be a villain but really only allows me to be a henchmen for others.

 

Because game code (especially at the time) would be very hard to bend to allowing great player agency so players can really be their own super villain ruling the world, I dont see this as a failing of the game, just a limitation of tools available. 

[Gulbasaur]

16 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I see you don't enjoy "spaghetti highway zone", "slum urban neighborhood zone" and "bunch of tall close buildings zone".

Being someone who grew up with very few skyscrapers, they all just look like "generic rectangle buildings cityscape" to me. Founders Falls has canals, so at least I sort of feel like that one is okay.

13 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Would an "ice zone" or "lava zone" make your stay better?

Yes please. Or at least some story arcs in places like Eden, Perez Park or other out of the way places to give you a reason to go there. "Hazard zones" aren't hazardous if you have almost no reason to go there. At least the Hollows has a solid story arc chain.

[Ukase]

It's a fair question, and deserves an answer, regardless of how little rationale it may have. 

I had a decent list of friends before CoV came out. When it did  - all of them went to the red side. I did not. For one, it required I buy another game, which at the time, I didn't want to do, I knew it came with the month of paid sub, so it wasn't like it was more than I was going to be paying, but I just felt like it ruined CoH. There was this line in the sand drawn, and it wasn't like we could just chat with Null and switch if we wanted to. It was a simple, but time consuming process of gaining tips and what not. And - to be honest, I really can't remember if it was like that from the jump. It may have been the next issue that allowed for changing alignments. In any event, CoV, to me, was a big mistake. Why dilute the population, if the premise was to encourage teaming? So, for me, it's a bit passive aggressive. 

Now that it's easier to switch, I'll go over there every now and then, but I've learned Blue side, I know by heart where all the badges are that I need for the passive accolades. I go to redside for 2 reasons - to get invader,  (because I don't want to be "forced" to do task forces with folks I may not want to team with, nor do I want to be herded into doing them solo if I'm not in the mood to do so. ), and to get the Patron Pool option for certain ATs. 

I have two accounts, and my alt has the Bloody Hands/Hero Slayer badge, so that character can get my primary account characters the Invader (Task Force Commander equivalent) in less than 15 minutes. I already have 10's of 1000s of reward merits and billions of inf. I may never do a tf again, except for a notice of the well, or to help those few who are on my global friends list. 

I have thought about starting a character over there - simply for the content. My main, Ukase has all the badges, so I know the content is comparatively better. Not so much zone hopping, shorter arcs, tfs. etc. But - red side is dreary and depressing. The spiders, snakes...it simply is gross. Who wants to see that? (rhetorical, but it sure ain't me) 

The few times I've thought about switching to help a familiar name out, I've done so. But I don't appreciate losing my Alignment power, and having to wait a week to get it back. 

Lastly - if you're red side, your Abyss is just the worst zone in existence. It's desolate, with useless crevices, insufficient number of DE Monsters for farming DE and if coming from Hero side, it's quite a trek. I will never, ever understand what the Devs were thinking, if they were, when they came up with the zone, and it's location. The Hive is vastly superior in scenery (yes, subjective), location (Base TP to Eden, 200 yds or so to The Hive gate vs. 1 mile swim to smuggler ship in IP or 600 yds to smuggler ship in PI) and certainly with the multiple walls of Giant DE for farming EoE to get Hamidon to spawn. 

So, I just say no. 

My best advice to HC team: 

Reduce Pocket D recharge time to 1 minute. There's no good reason for it to be 15 minutes. 
Alignment powers should be instant, not require a week before use. 
Eliminate all the spiders and snakes and anything else that looks like a bug or pest. Life's too short to be playing an exterminator. 
Clear the terrain so flight and/or SJ are not required for fast movement.  

Eliminate the whole red/blue side alignment system as a whole. Just make all zones part of the same big city. Access Mercy from Atlas, PI from Nerva, etc. Then nobody has to deal with this line drawn in the sand. It's the way it should have been from the beginning. It'll never happen because of the way the lore is laid out, but I don't really care about lore. That's just stuff I read when I get bored. 

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Do you think you would see Lex Luthor running errands for Lord Recluse, much less some of the really low level folks you end up working for redside?  Most people want to be THE villain, not just a lackey to the villain.  There are fewer shades of grey in villain 'culture' than in heroism.  Even if you are happy with the role of lackey, eventually you want to rule it all.  This is not allowed redside.  You are forever a mere henchman.  When do I get to take LRs head and mount it on my wall to strike fear into those who should fear me?

 

These are called delusions of grandeur, and those that can't see that are the most blind. If you want to run a self important villain that has deluded himself into believing he runs this shit (but if people think redside is so desolate and trashy, why would you?) but constantly finds himself the heel of everyone's boot, sure. 

 

I have villains who can easily play the angles, making it look like he's just some muscle doing someone's dirty work, but there's always that portion open to interpret taking the situation in a direction to benefit yourself. 

 

Would Lex Luthor be caught running errands for Lord Recluse? Not in Metropolis but a good chance he would on the Rogue Isles if he's trying to get anything done there. 

 

And fewer shades of grey in villainy? Are you high? 

[Heraclea]

4 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

City of Heroes promises I can be a hero and I can be a hero.  City of Villains promises me I can be a villain but really only allows me to be a henchmen for others.

More specifically: it is quite possible to play hero content while ignoring some of the storylines involving the death of Statesman, the destruction of Galaxy City, and so forth.  The storylines I like best are New Dark Astoria for high level soloing, and some of the ones that involve Circle of Thorns, the Warriors, the Freakshow, and for lower level content, the Skulls. 

 

You can't do anything as a villain without getting drawn into Arachnos and its office politics.   And the payoff of the endgame there is that some day in the future you will defeat Lord Recluse and replace him.  Then you get kicked back into the present and back to the same old grind.  The patron arcs are especially frustrating; you are called onto the carpet at some stage in each and told that it is forbidden for you to upset the status quo.  Of course nothing really changes blueside either, except maybe in those Atlas Park arcs where you root Arachnos out of the warehouse district.  But in a superhero world this is a bit less jarring. 

[Leogunner]

22 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

It isn't hypocrisy to have different expectations from games that promise different things.  City of Heroes promises I can be a hero and I can be a hero.  City of Villains promises me I can be a villain but really only allows me to be a henchmen for others.

Almost forgot, where is this promise? Did I just skip that contract and push OK to get to the good stuff? 

 

As far as I know, things regarding Roleplay is what you make of it. And the games merely allow you to perform deeds on a spectrum of morality. 

 

Also, for heroes, I can't make an ambivalent unfeeling force of balance or a novice hero in training (even in the Shining Stars, you're like a prodigy among misfits) or even just rescuing people from a derailed train or crashing plane. 

 

There are elements of heroism no longer bothered with (so you ever sacrifice yourself to protect someone by taking their place? Scenarios that are actually self sacrifice?). I could go on and on about the supposed "heroism" touted about on blue side. It's mostly fake. And it's all for back pats for your ego. Heck, I have to go gold to play a hero concerned about his public image. 

 

There isn't just failings on red. Blue is as guilty. 

[EmmySky]

16 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

And fewer shades of grey in villainy? Are you high? 

Poor choice of words on my part, my apologies (not high just in pain, I seem to have thrown out my back).

 

I meant you have a villain and a few levels of lackies.  The right-hand man, the right-hand mans right-hand man, and some basic morons who do the grunt work like digging graves or mixing cement.  You may also have a left-hand man for the super secret plot nobody know about but that will pop up eventually to spoil the best laid plans of the heroes who are bent on taking you down.  So I guess I meant levels like a hierarchy.  More of those different levels in heroism is what I was trying to say.  Words are hard.

[Giovanni Valia]

I think most people want to play "hero" as the themes of heroism are simple; be good and help others. That and the misconception that " no one plays redside", (LOOK AT THE POLL RESULTS).

 

Making a villainous character is more complicated. The motives of villains can be complex and make for interesting stories. It is harder to make a good villain than it is to make a good hero.

As far as game content goes, I've played some of the story arcs on blueside and have found most to be either tedious or simply boring.

 

Gonna leave a quote here from GM Cyclone, "I think a lot of the redside arcs have better writing than the blueside ones, because the writers had more experience by the time they made them. Which makes it funny so many people don't bother with them."

[biostem]

The issue with red-side, IMO, isn't so much the "henchman" part - it's not being able to initiate your own schemes.  I mean, a skilled creator could probably actualize their villain's own plots via the AE, but beyond that, it's not really about what *you* want to do.  There's no option to simply become a business mogul via nefarious means or to work on your own doomsday weapon...

Edited February 21, 2020 by biostem

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

When do I get to take LRs head and mount it on my wall to strike fear into those who should fear me?

Since I didn't see someone address this yet (but I might have missed it): at the end of Time After Time.

 

Oddly enough, with the exception of a rare few arcs, the paper missions that people complain about requiring to unlock contacts are also the usually the most player agency you get redside. That's why I don't mind them so much - you look at what's going on, decide what you want to do about it, and go make someone's day a bit worse.

[VileTerror]

Any time I hear someone say that Redside's maps are "drab" or "lack content," I get full-on confused.  Is their game broken?  Is the zone not rendering properly?  Did something happen to wash out the colour and fuzz over the details?

I've said it before ( https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/13460-unofficial-villain-server/?tab=comments#comment-138278 ) and I'll say it again:  The Etoile Isles are INCREDIBLY vibrant and vital.  They feel -alive!-  They feel like places I could go in the real world.  Blueside feels like so much painted cardboard.  ESPECIALLY places like Steel (Box) Canyon.