Weekly discussion 42: Scrappers!

[siolfir]

2 minutes ago, Dz131 said:

The problem isn't that scrappers can't differentiate between stalkers, it's scrappers can't differentiate from brutes.  Who are a much better comprised between tank/dps with a taunt aura so that AOEs are also more effective.  Scrappers need their own unique role to continue being a popular class.  I think like stalkers then need skill changes to their power sets instead of just different %.  Honestly I think giving offensive secondaries (like shields) to brutes was a huge mistake, since it made scrappers a lot less unique.

What role would they provide without completely changing the concept of the AT, though?  I mean, if you're complaining about Scrappers not having a role because of their AoE damage is too low, then what do you do about Blasters? I agree that some powersets shouldn't be proliferated to everybody because those powersets could help define the "flavor" for the AT, but that ship has long since sailed.

 

Scrappers are a do-it-all melee AT along with Brutes, with an edge on damage and disadvantages in hp and resistance caps. Stalkers don't make good tanks because while they can survive aggro well, they're terrible at maintaining it, while Brutes and Scrappers that have taunt auras in their secondary do well at holding aggro. I agree with you that Scrappers are closer to Brutes in which roles they fill than they are to Stalkers, but they're closer to Stalkers in how the AT actually works.

 

Also, while Stalkers do more single target damage, they aren't really using the same powersets to do that: no Stalker primary/secondary comparison is identical to the equivalent Scrapper or Brute set because they all give up at least one power in each for Assassin's Strike and Hide, plus the primaries are rearranged to fit Assassin's Strike at 6 and Build Up at 8, and often any AoE or +recovery powers in the secondary are adjusted or removed as well. Those changes - and your tolerance of them - provide the mechanical reasons @Itikar mentioned above as to whether to go with a Scrapper or Stalker, along with what role you want to fill in a team environment.

[Dz131]

19 minutes ago, siolfir said:

What role would they provide without completely changing the concept of the AT, though?  I mean, if you're complaining about Scrappers not having a role because of their AoE damage is too low, then what do you do about Blasters? I agree that some powersets shouldn't be proliferated to everybody because those powersets could help define the "flavor" for the AT, but that ship has long since sailed.

 

Scrappers are a do-it-all melee AT along with Brutes, with an edge on damage and disadvantages in hp and resistance caps. Stalkers don't make good tanks because while they can survive aggro well, they're terrible at maintaining it, while Brutes and Scrappers that have taunt auras in their secondary do well at holding aggro. I agree with you that Scrappers are closer to Brutes in which roles they fill than they are to Stalkers, but they're closer to Stalkers in how the AT actually works.

 

Also, while Stalkers do more single target damage, they aren't really using the same powersets to do that: no Stalker primary/secondary comparison is identical to the equivalent Scrapper or Brute set because they all give up at least one power in each for Assassin's Strike and Hide, plus the primaries are rearranged to fit Assassin's Strike at 6 and Build Up at 8, and often any AoE or +recovery powers in the secondary are adjusted or removed as well. Those changes - and your tolerance of them - provide the mechanical reasons @Itikar mentioned above as to whether to go with a Scrapper or Stalker, along with what role you want to fill in a team environment.

Blasters are melee/range hybrid, afaik no other AT has a ranged and melee set.

 

Yes there are no complaints about Stalkers because they inherently differentiate themselves in their playstyle and powersets.  The issue is how do you differentiate scrappers with brutes.  Right now the consensus seems to be brutes are just better in most ways, so where does scrappers fit in?   I would propose powerset changes for scrappers, just like stalkers.  Instead of buildup, maybe make it an AOE build up that effects people in range as well...simple things that sets scrappers apart from brutes.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Dz131

[Blastit]

Well, the spirit of the Scrapper is "let's go get 'em!" so an AoE Build Up isn't too farfetched. But either that should have a lot longer recharge than regular BU or be a much lower damage boost, which will make it a worse soloing power. Which is directly counter to the mechanics of the AT.

[Call Me Awesome]

1 hour ago, Dz131 said:

Blasters are melee/range hybrid, afaik no other AT has a ranged and melee set.

 

Yes there are no complaints about Stalkers because they inherently differentiate themselves in their playstyle and powersets.  The issue is how do you differentiate scrappers with brutes.  Right now the consensus seems to be brutes are just better in most ways, so where does scrappers fit in?   I would propose powerset changes for scrappers, just like stalkers.  Instead of buildup, maybe make it an AOE build up that effects people in range as well...simple things that sets scrappers apart from brutes.

The Scrapper/Brute question isn't a big deal.  Scrappers go from 0 to 100 instantly with no problem with stopping for a second or ramping up their damage.  Brutes take several spawns to reach their peak damage and if they stop then they have to start all over again.  A Brute is going to be tougher than a Scrapper thanks to higher HP and Res caps as a tradeoff for the slow ramp up of their damage.

 

A Brute who's worked his Fury up to it's maximum sustainable level will do roughly comparable damage to a Scrapper, but the Scrapper will do that level of damage from the first attack all the way to the end of the mission.  The Brute can't do that, his damage buff of Fury takes time to build and drops off with inactivity... and his base damage is far below that of the Scrapper.  I'd say that playstyle greatly distinguishes the Brute from the Scrapper.  Truthfully the Stalker and the Scrapper are more comparable, after playing both to 50 multiple times I find a Stalker plays very much like a Scrapper with Stealth, I get to choose my first strike but after that I'm a Scrapper in the way the AT plays.

[Dz131]

44 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

The Scrapper/Brute question isn't a big deal.  Scrappers go from 0 to 100 instantly with no problem with stopping for a second or ramping up their damage.  Brutes take several spawns to reach their peak damage and if they stop then they have to start all over again.  A Brute is going to be tougher than a Scrapper thanks to higher HP and Res caps as a tradeoff for the slow ramp up of their damage.

 

A Brute who's worked his Fury up to it's maximum sustainable level will do roughly comparable damage to a Scrapper, but the Scrapper will do that level of damage from the first attack all the way to the end of the mission.  The Brute can't do that, his damage buff of Fury takes time to build and drops off with inactivity... and his base damage is far below that of the Scrapper.  I'd say that playstyle greatly distinguishes the Brute from the Scrapper.  Truthfully the Stalker and the Scrapper are more comparable, after playing both to 50 multiple times I find a Stalker plays very much like a Scrapper with Stealth, I get to choose my first strike but after that I'm a Scrapper in the way the AT plays.

I think we when crunch the numbers scrappers is closest to stalkers.  The problem is that scrappers have no real identity in the game.  They're supposed to be the in your face warrior archtype, then brutes came along and just does it comparable or better, alot of it due to their taunt aura and just being tougher in general.  Many people in this thread feels the same, that brutes are just scrappers+ Which led to the decline of the original warriors: the scrappers.  I definitely think scrappers need something other than critical strike to make them more appealing again.  More players are not going to know the coefficents for the classes, just what they bring to the table in terms of game play, and scrappers are the most bland.

[siolfir]

2 hours ago, Dz131 said:

Blasters are melee/range hybrid, afaik no other AT has a ranged and melee set.

Note as separate sets, no, but look at the Assault secondaries for Dominators and tell me they aren't supposed to be melee/ranged damage.

 

 

[Replacement]

18 hours ago, Redlynne said:

That would require rewriting EVERY PLAYER POWER IN THE GAME in order to enable that.

Um ... no ...?

Funny you should say that, because while I've been reading the responses in this thread I've been wondering if a port of Spring Attack (minus the Knock effect), but done as a Single Target "attack" that teleports you to your $Target while still retaining all of the current Scrapper Taunt power effects would be a worthwhile upgrade.  Basically convert the power into a Taunt+Gap Closer, so as to properly live up to the power name ... CONFRONT ...

 

<picture snip>

 

The "legacy" Taunt powers were all about making Them Come To You.

Why not reconfigure the "Confront" powers (that also Taunt) for Scrappers be all about making You Go To Them ... in the blink of an eye ... (so to speak) and grab ALL of their attention onto yourself.

 

If nothing else, it would give Scrappers a UNIQUE Gap Closer (via teleport to $Target) power that they've never had before and would set them apart from other Archetypes.

And it would also give Scrappers a rather "signature" way of dealing with Runners ...

 

Basic idea being that if you have the Scrapper Confront power (now properly named?) ... ANYTHING within 70ft (standard Confront power range) of you CAN BE within melee range of you VERY QUICKLY(!!).

 

After that it's just a matter of swapping out the emote animation for the power (to drop the "Ah ha!" Taunt emote) so it looks more like a "fast jump" to close range (when it's game mechanically speaking a teleport to $Target) and call it a day.

Funny you should mention this...

 

It was brought up in a Suggestions & Feedback thread, people were interested enough that we spun it out to its own thread where... everyone poo-poo'd on the whole idea.  Where were y'all then?

Edited March 17, 2020 by Replacement

[Replacement]

On 3/15/2020 at 9:56 AM, Redlynne said:

Super Reflexes Power Order

Legacy: Focused Fighting . Focused Senses . Agile . Practiced Brawler . Dodge . Quickness . Lucky . Evasion . Elude

Proposed: Focused Fighting . Dodge . Focused Senses . Practiced Brawler . Agile . Evasion . Lucky . Quickness . Elude

Resulting proposed pattern: Melee (toggle, passive), Ranged (toggle), Mez Protection, Ranged (passive), AoE (toggle, passive), Quickness (passive), Elude (click)

It always felt like the reason why (then) Cryptic didn't make Super Reflexes come out in a toggle/toggle/toggle then passive/passive/passive sequence was because back in the early days Stamina wasn't inherent and it would have been perfectly possible to drain your endurance recovery horrifically with 3 toggles draining 0.26 end/sec on a base recovery of 1.76 end/sec with no hope for Stamina to slot for recovery until Level 20(!), and it simply isn't possible to survive on a +0.98 end/sec budget (while attacking!) when limited to TOs and DOs since you'd need to spend all of your slots on endurance reduction from the get go (a VERY steep ask!).  The biggest failing of Super Reflexes on Scrappers is the simple fact that the AoE Defense gets "finished" far too late (the T8 power!) making AoE Defense a HUGE HOLE in the protection scheme when Exemplared.

Is this (bolded) supposed to be Lucky or Evasion?  Dodge would just be more melee defense.  Personally, I'd go for Lucky (auto).  That'd give us Melee Toggle, Ranged Toggle, AoE passive.

 

But then, I really just want to burn SR to the ground and rebuild it to look more like Shield Defense.

 

Quote

Martial Arts

I second giving Scrapper version some +defense like the big guys get.  I'd also love to see Burst of Speed added to the kit somehow.  I had mentioned before the idea of having 3 separate powers in the pool all grant Burst of Speed charges, meaning you would need all 3 to have the same behavior that Blasters gain (3 charges before cooldown).

[Troo]

"The Scrapper is a fierce melee combatant. In hand to hand, no other hero can compare. But the Scrapper is not as resilient as the Tanker, and might find himself in a little trouble if he heedlessly wades into combat. The Scrapper's aptitude for melee is countered by a total lack of long distance attacks. Scrappers possess Critical strike capability. Their melee attacks have a chance to sometimes do double damage."

• Close combat - total lack of long distance attacks
• Not as resilient as the most resilient ATs
• Can get in over their head
• Damage, lots of damage

 

Compared to Scrappers:

• Stalker more single target oriented burst damage. (also stealthy)
• Brutes work up to damage and must maintain to sustain their increased damage.

 

Remembering: endgame blurs the differences.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Troo

[biostem]

What scrappers need is a 'Conservation of Ninjitsu' mechanic, where enemies become weaker the more of them you're facing up against.   :-P

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by biostem

[Riverdusk]

20 hours ago, Redlynne said:

That would require rewriting EVERY PLAYER POWER IN THE GAME in order to enable that.

Um ... no ...?

Funny you should say that, because while I've been reading the responses in this thread I've been wondering if a port of Spring Attack (minus the Knock effect), but done as a Single Target "attack" that teleports you to your $Target while still retaining all of the current Scrapper Taunt power effects would be a worthwhile upgrade.  Basically convert the power into a Taunt+Gap Closer, so as to properly live up to the power name ... CONFRONT ...

 

         

 

The "legacy" Taunt powers were all about making Them Come To You.

Why not reconfigure the "Confront" powers (that also Taunt) for Scrappers be all about making You Go To Them ... in the blink of an eye ... (so to speak) and grab ALL of their attention onto yourself.

 

If nothing else, it would give Scrappers a UNIQUE Gap Closer (via teleport to $Target) power that they've never had before and would set them apart from other Archetypes.

And it would also give Scrappers a rather "signature" way of dealing with Runners ...

 

Basic idea being that if you have the Scrapper Confront power (now properly named?) ... ANYTHING within 70ft (standard Confront power range) of you CAN BE within melee range of you VERY QUICKLY(!!).

 

After that it's just a matter of swapping out the emote animation for the power (to drop the "Ah ha!" Taunt emote) so it looks more like a "fast jump" to close range (when it's game mechanically speaking a teleport to $Target) and call it a day.

Awesome idea.  Another good example is dominator's Feral Charge.  That way it could also keep the taunt (to avoid breaking the cottage rule and to not upset the 2% who might actually like it as a taunt), and as others have suggested a mild short bonus to crit chance.  

Edited March 17, 2020 by Riverdusk

[InvaderStych]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

Funny you should mention this...

 

It was brought up in a Suggestions & Feedback thread, people were interested enough that we spun it out to its own thread where... everyone poo-poo'd on the whole idea.  Where were y'all then?

 

Speaking only for myself, I didn't know that HC existed when that thread happened. 😁

 

Maybe it's time for a revisit.  Out of all the suggestions in this particular thread, changing confront into a single-target teleport/charge attack is the only one I really like (and feel is a thematic fit) so far.

 

I hear there's a beta server for testing such things ....

 

Question, are there any scrapper primaries that don't have confront? I'm not overly familiar with the newer ones.

[Replacement]

13 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Speaking only for myself, I didn't know that HC existed when that thread happened. 😁

 

Maybe it's time for a revisit.  Out of all the suggestions in this particular thread, changing confront into a single-target teleport/charge attack is the only one I really like (and feel is a thematic fit) so far.

 

I hear there's a beta server for testing such things ....

 

Question, are there any scrapper primaries that don't have confront? I'm not overly familiar with the newer ones.

I was thinking some that were ported from Brute/Tanker still have Taunt instead of Confront, but now I think that was just an old Pine's omission.

 

As for the Confront swap, there are 3 ways to do it, in my estimation.  They get progressively more work to implement, break the cottage rule more and more, but also get awesomer:

1) Brief move speed bonus on Confront

2) Replace all Scrapper confronts with the same gap-closing power

3) Give each set its own thematic and varied gap-close.  Obviously much cooler, but so much less realistic of a use of HC Dev time.

 

EDIT: about the Beta server: I would love if the Devs would throw some intentionally over-the-top experimental things on the beta servers just to intentionally desensitize us from overreacting.  It's always good data to see what happens if, say, you change the minimum level of epics to 4 just to see what people do with it. 

 

What I'm saying is: I fully support putting wild things on Beta, give them the [experimental] tag, and see what happens.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Replacement

[Gobbledygook]

I have a few things that I'd like to speak on.

 

Criticals

I may be wrong, but could something be added to the inherent to where it is more than criticals,right?

I know there have already been a couple of suggestions, and some have stated that raising the crit chance isn't the answer, nor is adding survivability to it, and I agree. I completely agree!

As @Troo pointed out above, quoting the description of the Scrapper AT, they do damage, lots of damage. I have included the quote below, as well.

What if the critical chance was left where it is, and there was a scaling buff in addition to the critical, but not +dmg like Brutes get. What about the Scrapper getting a +to hit and -res, or depending on enemy rank, or possibly even sclae with health, as that would also jive with the "Can get in over there head" part of the description.

2 hours ago, Troo said:

"The Scrapper is a fierce melee combatant. In hand to hand, no other hero can compare. But the Scrapper is not as resilient as the Tanker, and might find himself in a little trouble if he heedlessly wades into combat. The Scrapper's aptitude for melee is countered by a total lack of long distance attacks. Scrappers possess Critical strike capability. Their melee attacks have a chance to sometimes do double damage."

• Close combat - total lack of long distance attacks
• Not as resilient as the most resilient ATs
• Can get in over their head
• Damage, lots of damage

 

Scrappers should be sustained high damage while Stalkers and Brute are situational damage.

• Stalker more single target oriented burst damage.
• Brutes work up to damage and must maintain to sustain increased damage.

 

Remembering: endgame blurs the differences.

 

Confront

I love the changes @Redlynne brought up. As someone else mentioned, this was also a whole thread of it's own so the idea definitely has merit. I know for me, I would actually take confront if this was put into effect. I am one of those Scrappers that watches teammates health bars, even if I am in a different pile of bodies, so I can save some one if they pulled to much aggro off the tank/brute. This would make getting back to them much faster. As far as what to add to it (+Dmg, chance for crit,) I'm not sure, but I won't speak on that. That's for you numbers guys and girls, like @Galaxy Brain.

 

Regen

As mentioned, regen is not totally unplayable. I think there are ways to improve it without it becoming OP though. Or course it would have to be balanced across all ATs that get it though.

From the I-4 Patch Notes

Reduced the amount of Regeneration Buff that can be enhanced in Instant Healing and Integration (base values were not changed)

 

From the I-5 Patch Notes

Changed Regeneration/Instant Healing from a Toggle Power to a Click power.Issue 6 was when the introduced ED (Enhancement Diversification)

 

I propose making all of Integrations regen fully enhanceable again, instead of just 2/3s, make IH a toggle again, and adding absorb to Integration and Fast Healing.

 

Again, I know nothing of these numbers some of you speak of.

Thank you for your time though.

[Redlynne]

9 hours ago, warlyx said:

Stalkers bring a way to kill priority targets faster , brutes bring more tankiness

... and Scrappers bring more spankiness.

 

What?

[Redlynne]

If we're talking TOTAL PIE IN THE SKY wishful thinking on the subject of Critical Hits ...

 

If I were redesigning the critical hit system for scrappers from scratch, I'd turn it into more of a "free form combo system" in which each Scrapper primary attack (not pools, not epics, primary ONLY) adds to a stacking chance to critically hit ... and when a critical hit happens the stack resets to 5%.  That way, rather than dealing with a fixed percentage chance to crit on each power, you have a building chance to critically hit UNTIL YOU DO and then it resets.  Under such a system, the Scrapper's Strike ATO proc would simply raise the minimum critical chance (so instead of resetting to 5% it would reset to 10% after a critical hit so you build the stacks "faster" and crit more often) and the Critical Strikes ATO proc would simply add +50% chance to the stack count (which would then reset down to minimum upon landing a critical hit).

 

That way, critical hits aren't just purely a matter of praying to RNGesus like we have now, but behave more like a "surf the wave" in which the critical hit chances VARY depending on how many primary attacks you've made which HAVE NOT critically hit.  There isn't anything for the Player to actively "do" (aside from Scrapperlock their $Target(s)) and the critical strike stack drops to minimum when Out Of Combat so you can't "carry" the buff to crit chances around with you "forever" (per se), so the whole thing functions as a sort of background (radiation?) layer of "critical meta" that is still partially driven by prayers to RNGesus but is also running on a kind of "streakbreaker" for criticals system where the longer you haven't scored a critical hit the more likely that your next primary attack will be a critical hit increases (until you do critically hit).

 

But that's some serious pie in the sky wishful thinking there ...

[Galaxy Brain]

Increase res cap to 80% to make the res sets worthwhile

 

Implement the lunge to target confront that still taunts your target, also apply a -Dmg/-Def to them (unresistable).

 

Random idea for scrapperlock: each time you crit you actually trigger (scrapperlock), which is a short lived buff to Regen, Recovery, and Crit Chance (3%). This buff does not stack but can be refreshed indefinitely. Perhaps the boost to regen and recovery can apply to allies in a range when it happens as a morale boost.

 

Pie in the Sky:

Scrappers share their melee attacks with Brutes and Tankers. We already see those two have some differences (mainly tanks) but they also share stuff like the +Def from Storm Kick. Do more of this for Scrappers Only where their versions of powers behave extra scrap that others dont. Heck, tie it to crits!

 

Claw Crit -> DoT

Fire Crit -> Harsh -Regen

Broadsword Crit -> -Res

 

Etc

[Gauntlet_Prime]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

<snip>

a kind of "streakbreaker" for criticals system

<snip>

That is an interesting idea but I wonder how the math would play out with fast vs slow sets.  I think things like claws would just run away with consistent fast animations just climbing that crit mountain really fast.  But then again big slow crits on something like TW might even out over time.

 

On the idea of a Teleport Confront: I love it.  I don't think it needs to bring a buff or have any other effect than taunt.  Maybe a KD/Imobil as you "surprise" your target and they freeze or stumble.  Have a -fly effect as you pull flyers to the ground.  Effects like that don't directly effect damage which I think is more than adequate as a whole for the AT.  But an on-demand crit would force its cooldown to be larger than I want and potentially lead to balance changes none of us really wants.  To me this would be a scraplock power that just has you porting from crowd to crowd in scrapper ecstasy.  After all, what scrapper does something so pedestrian as running to the next group of mobs?

Edited March 18, 2020 by Gauntlet_Prime

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Gauntlet_Prime said:

On the idea of a Teleport Confront: I love it.  I don't think it needs to bring a buff or have any other effect than taunt.  Maybe a KD/Imobil as you "surprise" your target and they freeze or stumble.  Have a -fly effect as you pull flyers to the ground.  Effects like that don't directly effect damage which I think is more than adequate as a whole for the AT.  But an on-demand crit would force its cooldown to be larger than I want and potentially lead to balance changes none of us really wants.  To me this would be a scraplock power that just has you porting from crowd to crowd in scrapper ecstasy.  After all, what scrapper does something so pedestrian as running to the next group of mobs?

Champions Online has a "lunge" power in nearly every melee set.  They are really great for closing the distance and/or for the opening move when engaging a new group of enemies.  I'd love to see such powers given a bit of character, with regard to each set that they are associated with, (for instance, maybe dark melee's lunge would apply a small AoE fear, while fire's could deal some minor fire AoE damage, and ice could slow enemies, etc).

[Cutter]

On the "lunging Confront" thang: would Burst of Speed (from blaster Martial Combat) be a reasonable place to start in looking for the appropriate effect, timing, etc.?

38 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Random idea for scrapperlock: each time you crit you actually trigger (scrapperlock), which is a short lived buff to Regen, Recovery, and Crit Chance (3%). This buff does not stack but can be refreshed indefinitely. Perhaps the boost to regen and recovery can apply to allies in a range when it happens as a morale boost.

I like this idea too.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet_Prime said:

That is an interesting idea but I wonder how the math would play out with fast vs slow sets.

Oh that's easy.  You can "normalize" the +crit chance being stacked by tying it to animation times (not arcanatime, animation cast time, just like how procs work) ...

1s animation = +1% crit chance

2s animation = +2% crit chance

... that way there's no "advantage" (per se) to fast versus slow in terms of building up crit chance on the stack, since the increase normalizes out to +1% per 1s of animation time spent on primary powerset attacks.  After that, it's just a matter of preference for the Chuck Lots Of Dice™ method for attempting to get "more bites at the apple" even if they're individually smaller bites.  The key point however is that fast animating attacks will tend to be the lower damage ones (go figure, eh?) so resorting to a "buzzsaw build" mentality might yield more crits per minute but not necessarily more damage throughput during that minute.

 

Six of one ... half a dozen of the other ... and all that.

In the end, it all balances out over time, because slow attacks that crit deliver big crits, while fast attacks that crit deliver small crits.  After that, it's mainly a question of damage throughput "efficiency" dependent on not "wasting" too much crit damage output on overkills (but seriously, overkills are like a Scrapper birthright, so who really cares about that?).

 

Point being, there are ways to finesse your concern ...

[Gauntlet_Prime]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

Oh that's easy.  You can "normalize" the +crit chance being stacked by tying it to animation times (not arcanatime, animation cast time, just like how procs work) ...

1s animation = +1% crit chance

2s animation = +2% crit chance

... that way there's no "advantage" (per se) to fast versus slow in terms of building up crit chance on the stack, since the increase normalizes out to +1% per 1s of animation time spent on primary powerset attacks.  After that, it's just a matter of preference for the Chuck Lots Of Dice™ method for attempting to get "more bites at the apple" even if they're individually smaller bites.  The key point however is that fast animating attacks will tend to be the lower damage ones (go figure, eh?) so resorting to a "buzzsaw build" mentality might yield more crits per minute but not necessarily more damage throughput during that minute.

 

Six of one ... half a dozen of the other ... and all that.

In the end, it all balances out over time, because slow attacks that crit deliver big crits, while fast attacks that crit deliver small crits.  After that, it's mainly a question of damage throughput "efficiency" dependent on not "wasting" too much crit damage output on overkills (but seriously, overkills are like a Scrapper birthright, so who really cares about that?).

 

Point being, there are ways to finesse your concern ...

Fine, use logic and math to answer my concern about logic and math like some sort of smart person! 😛

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

(but seriously, overkills are like a Scrapper birthright, so who really cares about that?)

Quoted because it made me smile like a lunatic.  🙂

Normalizing between fast/slow sets would also need careful attention to combo/stack decay rate.

Overall, I like love your proposed system...  But I have to wonder how much work it would be to rework every Scrapper powerset to a combo/stackbuilding set?

[siolfir]

The concept for building and decaying an escalating critical chance is already in place for Assassin's Focus but I don't remember the manner that the increased chance was handled - I think it was through adding extra critical lines for each stack level to the fast Assassin's Strike, though, which isn't feasible for all Scrapper attacks due to the workload.

Edited March 18, 2020 by siolfir
are/is, changed a subject and forgot to change the verb

[Zepp]

Because of caps and the way pool powers are designed, I find myself using Scrappers for Defense-oriented or layered secondaries while I find Brutes are better for Resist-oriented secondaries. That being said, I think Scrappers are in a fairly good spot atm and the only problems they have are that two of their eighteen power choices are wasteful. Confront and the T9 armor powers are very rarely taken.

The discussion here about making confront a TP+something power is interesting (and could be customized per set).

I also feel that the melee/armor spectrum can sometimes get cloudy - Stalker (highest damage in theory, more spiky damage, mainly single target, strong aggro reduction, lowest protections), Scrapper (second highest damage, more sustained than spike, about half AoE, moderate protections), Brute (moderate damage, more sustainy damage, about half AoE, strong aggro production, strong protections), Tank (least damage, sustained, about half AoE, strongest aggro production, strongest protections).

That being said, I don't see any way to really add distance/distinction on the spectrum as it currently stands.