Focused Feedback: Dark Miasma (Release Candidates)

[Vanden]

23 minutes ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

Misunderstanding or willfully misconstruing my argument does not make it semantics, sorry.

And now the pot calls the kettle black. I used the name of the powerset instead of the name of a specific power in one place and you responded as if I was claiming that the whole set is overpowered. I thought from the context it was clear I was still just talking about the specific powers.

 

23 minutes ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

1. Tar Patch is by any objective measure already weaker than Sleet/Freezing Rain on all affected Archetypes without the nerf. It being relatively less weak between Defenders and the other Supports does not make it inherently overperforming.

No, what makes it overperforming is that it's stronger than the AT mods indicate it should be.

 

23 minutes ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

2. As a measure of powerset balance? Yes, absolutely. If perfect adherence to a set of ratios was all it took to balance powersets, Trick Arrows and Time wold be balanced. Are you really going to claim that's the case?

A strawman argument.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Vanden

[HelBlaiz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Tar Patch is a T3 power, and Sleet/Freezing Rain are T6? Sleet is T8 actually, isn't it? I'm not sure an early level power should be directly compared to a mid/late game power. Based on what I remember of the visuals, Tar Patch is also a larger area?

[Bopper]

Just now, HelBlaiz said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Tar Patch is a T3 power

T2 actually. Great point.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, HelBlaiz said:

I'm not sure an early level power should be directly compared to a mid/late game power.

 

Well, Freezing Rain = Sleet, and FR is available much earlier, so I'm not sure that selection order really matters a lot. And I do think that Sleet should be available earlier for Cold Domination even though it would push Benumb back. Unless it just got swapped with Frostwork.

[Kanil]

4 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

Same feedback as last build. While all the Dark Miasma changes are technically bug fixes, the end result is a pretty heavy set of nerfs to non-Defenders and the set wasn't too strong to start with (on Defenders or anything else).

 

My suggestion remains to increase the Defender version of Tar Patch to -40% Res and leave the rest at -30%. This would be a small but appreciable buff for the Defender version of Dark that would put its -Res patch at the same level as the Defender's version of Freezing Rain, and leave the rest of the ATs at what they already have, and have had for many years. This would take a lot of the sting out of having both personal and pet healing reduced for the non-Defenders by at least letting them keep their offensive support the same.

 

The accuracy buff to Twilight's Grasp is appreciated, it never made any sense to me why Kinetics's targeted heal had it but Dark's didn't.

 

Also, the following change is missing from the Focused Feedback post and should be here:

 

Powers

• The following powers now ignore outside buffs (they all provide enhanceable resistance and should've always ignored buffs)
  • Controller > Darkness Affinity > Fade

seems reasonable to me. i guess i don't see a downside to making defender support stronger since it won't end up stepping on toes of folks who have been enjoying those kinda numbers on non-defender powersets for however long they've been playing the game.

 

 it's overperforming in the scale of AT stuff, but if it's adjusted that way is it overperforming on the larger scale as well? i assume everything's relative to the overall game instead of within those rigid lines when you consider the buff upwards.

 

this kinda buff would be something that would close the gap on cold dom being "the best" overall (barring traps triple acid mortar stuff) av/gm killer debuff powerset in the sense of giving dark some fighting power there would keep those choices more and more competitive rather than less, right?

 

if you follow the same logic on sleet being technically weaker than it 'should' be despite being in that 'top' position by the nature of the rest of it's combined powerset, you get this weird train of thought where that top set should be buffed because of that. or alternatively, nerfing a set explicitly from it's original AT values because of those 'rigid' guidelines where Every AT Power That Does Thing Must Do This Value

 

i guess it just goes back to a core thought process i've been wondering - it's a loose enough game to where that kind of power scaling is clearly enjoyable enough for folks to use the sets with that in mind, right? there's a couple of different angles to approach it from that all end up tryin' to appease different trains of thought of stuff, so why not go with something that steps on the least toes and fills in the most gaps in terms of keeping things enjoyable for the most folks while retaining that kind of overall logic?

 

it's like... i don't see more people playing dark because of the nerf to tar patch, so what's the value gained in making less people happy if you can keep the overall logic being pursued in maintaining AT values?

 

honestly going beyond that my personal thoughts are more based off of like, a long history with fighting games where a lot of my enjoyment ends up being the natural extension of tools being open enough in the game to be explored by the players, often with characters 'breaking the rules' of the game in ways that ultimately make them more fun because they gain more options off that than whatever the baseline is. recognizing those 'broken rules' being appealing to folks and then building around them in the design of new characters and changes rather than abiding by the original concepts is often times what makes 'new' things and balancing exciting for folks because they hope to see their preferred choice of character (no matter how weak) get stronger in the ways that appeal to them.

 

the 'exceptions' like sleet and tar pit provide in the sense of being stronger than other sets is something that sticks out as novel and i think is somethin' that's part of the appeal of those powersets for other folks as well. i know for sure it bothers plenty of people too in that it falls out of Logic, but the line of 'logic' for this general direction of design is something that just perplexes me in the scope of design decisions for a game because it prioritizes an internal logic over people's existing enjoyment of stuff that doesn't stifle the game in any manner.

 

i doubt anyone's gonna read this rambling mess but i'm stuck indoors and having a good time doin' it anyways, haha

 

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

Misunderstanding or willfully misconstruing my argument does not make it semantics, sorry.

1. Tar Patch is by any objective measure already weaker than Sleet/Freezing Rain on all affected Archetypes without the nerf. It being relatively less weak between Defenders and the other Supports does not make it inherently overperforming.

 

2. As a measure of powerset balance? Yes, absolutely. If perfect adherence to a set of ratios was all it took to balance powersets, Trick Arrows and Time wold be balanced. Are you really going to claim that's the case?

I like that this is the argument you make for why Tar Patch should be nerfed. If that's not what you're doing, then what, exactly, are you arguing with me about? I haven't argued that Fade or Twilight's Grasp should be left as they are.

 

This dogpile has been lovely, but unless anyone wants to actually address what I've suggested in a substantive way instead of dogpiling me about how wildly overpowered things I'm not even talking about are, I think I'm done with this conversation.

You are aware that they can simply adjust Dark Miasma if it’s underperforming once they have the AT modifiers working, right?

[oedipus_tex]

I don't think Dark Miasma needed an Accuracy buff to Twilight Grasp, but I won't complain. The power is only superficially similar to Kinetic's Transfusion. Transfusion had better Accuracy mainly because it needs to be used up close. Twilight Grasp gives the user more control over where to cast it. The risk of missing is (or was) an intentional limitation of a very strong set.

 

The Controller version of Dark Miasma (Dark Affinity) is significantly different from any of the other versions. I don't know how a Link Minds style AoE +Defense power (Fade) was considered a suitable replacement for a weak-ish single target Hold, but regardless, IMO Controllers made out like bandits in the transition from Defender --> Controller. Any corrections to pseudo pets still won't outweigh the ability to obtain excellent base Defense and slot an extra LoTG.

 

On Masterminds and Corruptors there's maybe some more room to complain, but IMO not much. Dark Miasma is the rare buff set with a true Control power in Fearsome Stare, which also happens to be a significant-ToHit buff. While it's true the nuker-iffic meta of the game has made this power somewhat less amazing, it's still very good, and we have to assume at some point debuffs of this sort will be resurrected in value if the Homecoming team continues development into level 55+ content where players may not be able to blow enemies away instantly.

 

Overall I'd say these changes make the game better and more consistent. One thing I think is very good is the developers are taking the buff/debuff sets seriously instead of as afterthoughts. The melee, blast. and armor sets have always been held to a higher level of scrutiny than the control and buff/debuff sets and I'm glad to see someone giving some attention to some longstanding issues that would have been less likely to have existed this long on one of the more closely watched archetypes.

Edited March 18, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Trickshooter]

12 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

25% healing nerf

11 hours ago, Bopper said:

If I had to make an educated guess, the reason Dark was so popular might have something to do with having an AoE heal that was as strong as a defender's

I just want to make something clear before it gets out of hand: Mastermind Twilight Grasp has never been Defender-strength. Twilight Grasp is a scale 1.784 heal, so for Masterminds, it should have been doing a 191.05 Heal, unslotted. It currently does a 209.9 Heal or about 18.85 too much. If this is the new value it will operate at, then this is less than a 9% difference.

 

It's also worth pointing out that even with this change, Twilight Grasp remains one of the strongest AoE and ST heals available to MMs. And at an extremely discounted endurance cost! They can heal all 6 of their pets for 9.75 endurance, for a value which a Pain or Thermal MM would need to cast their AoE Heals twice to come close to, for a total of 32.24 endurance, or their ST Heal 6 times, for a total of 96.72 endurance.

 

Edit: I forgot about Controllers and Corruptors! Their Twilight Grasps DO function at Defender-strength. Unslotted, they should be going from 238.81 Heal down to 210.15, a difference of about 12%.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Trickshooter
omg i messed up so much math!

[Trickshooter]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I don't know how a Link Minds style AoE +Defense power (Fade) was considered a suitable replacement for a weak-ish single target Hold

From what I understand, it was thrown together last minute to replace what was the original replacement power: a PBAoE ally intangilibity. This power turned out to be extremely unpopular.

 

Edit: I wasn't in the beta when Dark Affinity was introduced, so I don't know if this is completely true, it's just what I heard.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Trickshooter

[Replacement]

One thing I feel this conversation could benefit from (I'm unhopeful) is an understanding of the term "power budget." Within a set, and even given the AT it's mounted on, all the powers available contribute towards its power budget. This has to include possible combinations - you can't ignore a particularly strong power just because a player might not take it, and you can't dump all your weakness into one skip-able power - you will likely need to nerf at least half of the other powers in a set if you want one to intentionally overperform. It gets messy fast. (Hi, Kinetics!)

 

If you want to argue that it's ok for the Controller version to be as powerful as the defender version - it's not impossible. But the onus IS on you to show why it's inherently weaker on that AT than the other sets that are respecting AT modifiers.

[Super Homer]

11 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

1. Tar Patch is by any objective measure already weaker than Sleet/Freezing Rain on all affected Archetypes without the nerf.

Is it now?

 

Tar Patch has a 45 second duration, and a 90 second cooldown. It has a 50% uptime, perma with 3 SOs and easily stackable with any additional recharge. In a hypothetical global recharge cap scenario, it recharges in 18 seconds. In theory you can have 3 tar patches 50% of the time with that cooldown (ignoring cast time at the moment for simplicity)

 

Freezing Rain is 15 second duration, and a 60 second cooldown. It has a 25% uptime, and cant be made perma without an additional 205% global recharge (or buffs.) In a Hypothetical global recharge cap, it still recharges in 12s, meaning the most overlap you can ever get is 3 seconds (again, ignoring cast time at the moment)

 

Tar Patch is NOT weaker than Sleet or Freezing Rain (would not blame you thinking so at first, though, I also thought Sleet was just a copy of Tar Patch.)

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Super Homer

[Trickshooter]

12 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

Freezing Rain is 15 second duration

The pet lasts 15 seconds, but I think the debuff lasts 30 seconds total on anyone hit. That means if they're in the patch for the full duration of 15 seconds, they could be under the effects of the -Res/-Def for a total of 45 seconds. Freezing Rain is powerful, but costs nearly 2.5 times the endurance of Tar Patch. You can also fly or jump out of Freezing Rain, but I don't think you can do that with Tar Patch.

[Eldyem]

11 hours ago, Bopper said:

My first response was only in regards to Tar Patch and that the impact was only a loss of 6% DPS (at absolute worse, while likely less than half that in team settings). Your response to my numbers was I am forgetting the other nerfs. But now you're saying you're not against the other nerfs?

 

Ok. 

In all fairness, in other MMOs (I believe FFXIV is the one I'm thinking of) a damage increase of a lower scale for a few seconds has largely contributed to classes being "meta".  I think we might want to be careful about saying "only" because sometimes those small values are the difference between top tier and unviable (though they clearly aren't in this situation, I think the tar pit nerf is substantially more relevant to the argument than the twillight grasp nerf). For a Controller who isn't using procs (ie a leveling controller), 6% less of a res debuff probably eclipses the actual damage they're providing.

 

That being said - does this actually matter? And I sincerely doubt it does in 99% of gameplay and the other 1% are situations we'd never notice.

13 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

You're ignoring the other 3 nerfs to Dark Controllers and 2 to Corruptors and Masterminds.

 

Having all personal and pet healing reduced by 25%, -Res reduced by 25%, and for Controllers with Fade and Power Boost, Defense reduced by 100%+ is a heavy set of nerfs.

A BIG question here regarding Fade is "Should Power Boost even work this way?" and on some level I think Power Boost just shouldn't affect defense and that defense powers should never be balanced around the belief that it should, even if we're fine with it doing so. That's more of an opinion-oriented choice, but it's hard for me to see this as a true nerf when we're just "fixing" something that is a mechanically nonsensical choice when we really take a step back and think about what it means.
 

13 hours ago, Vanden said:

I also have to wonder how the set apparently managed to fall so far. I remember during Live, the common wisdom was that Dark Miasma was an excellent set. On Controllers, it's an even better buff/debuff set because it loses two powers of the kind that Controllers already get in the primaries for two more excellent buffs. But now it gets this small slap-on-the-wrist nerf and suddenly people are claiming it's not that good to begin with? Something smells fishy.

I imagine a very large portion of it is that To-Hit debuffs are now considerably less relevant, solo play feels much less common as a whole, and groups move quickly which makes Tar Patch and Darkest Night much less useful overall because they need to be set up. We also saw the introduction of sets like Time and Nature that really raised the bar on what a support set could do.

The game changed around Dark, but I think there's at least three other Support sets in an obviously worse spot and probably more like six or seven if we're being honest.

edit: Forgot to clearly state my position; these changes are fine. Supports as a whole in CoH (even the ones I think are underpowered!) are very strong and I don't think that there's any AT modifier fixes that has the potential to throw any set out of whack unless that set is already doing very, very poorly.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Eldyem
clarification

[siolfir]

10 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

You are aware that they can simply adjust Dark Miasma if it’s underperforming once they have the AT modifiers working, right?

The ask is for the adjustment to Tar Patch to happen now while the have the AT modifiers working, because we already know how it performs on those ATs at -30% resistance. Sure, it might be adjusted later at some point, but Freezing Rain Envenom already has the -resistance that Tar Patch would be boosted to on Defenders, so it's not unprecedented to have a power with that level of -resistance, and they have shown a willingness to make adjustments already, which is why Twilight's Grasp is getting an accuracy buff.

 

It's not an unreasonable ask, but unlike my concern about updating Sleet by nerfing the original values of the power(s) for Cold Domination because it wasn't adjusted correctly during a port, this would actually be buffing the original power because of a bad job of porting the power to other ATs.

 

14 hours ago, Bopper said:

I like that this is the argument you make for why Masterminds choose Dark over other sets, and yet the control of the set was not touched.

 

If I had to make an educated guess, the reason Dark was so popular might have something to do with having an AoE heal that was as strong as a defender's, an AoE debuff that was as strong as a defender's, and a well known bug in Fade that allowed for Power Boosting its large AoE defense buffs while also having the large AoE resistances boosted by damage buffs. I'm sure that last one synergize well with Assault and a Gaussian proc triggering reliably in Tactics (who doesnt love +64% damage paired with 64% enhancement to Fade's resistance?).

 

But yeah...the untouched control is why the set was popular.

Since the argument started with the popularity of the set with MMs and you bring up Fade, I have to ask: when did MMs get Fade?

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by siolfir
changes to first response, correction on Freezing Rain

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

Since the argument started with the popularity of the set with MMs and you bring up Fade, I have to ask: when did MMs get Fade?

They didn't. I mixed up my thoughts from an MM's pets and a controller with pets. 

[Trickshooter]

11 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Freezing Rain already has what Tar Patch would be boosted to on Defenders

Freezing Rain is only -35% on Defenders and -30% on everyone else, so it also does not correctly follow modifiers. But like, Defenders had Dark Miasma first, so we can assume they should be the base value to determine what everyone else should be at. How is that handled with Freezing Rain? Should the Defender version by -40% and everyone else -30%, or should Defender stay -35% and everyone else be -26.25%?

[Frosticus]

My crystal ball tells me that once all the AT modifiers are respected they will likely do a deep dive into some of the sets that are really struggling (TA, some aspects of poison, sonic, maybe FF) and a once over of the good sets to spruce up some things (powers like frostworks for example). I'd also expect a few powers to be trimmed down (rhymes with bar-light).

 

That seems to be the direction they are moving in to me at least.

 

FWIW they are also moving way faster than the old devs imo. But everything still takes time.

 

As for bumping tarpatch up to 40% for fenders? I'd say "where's my bump?" as a poison player. But I also don't really want envenom bumped up, it is already a super strong debuff with very real limitations. 

[Frosticus]

2 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Freezing Rain is only -35% on Defenders and -30% on everyone else, so it also does not correctly follow modifiers. But like, Defenders had Dark Miasma first, so we can assume they should be the base value to determine what everyone else should be at. How is that handled with Freezing Rain? Should the Defender version by -40% and everyone else -30%, or should Defender stay -35% and everyone else be -26.25%?

I get that corrs had /cold first. It was my favorite set on live by a landslide. As we've pointed out elsewhere no one can even remember when HL was dropped down to 24% for corrs as it used to be 30%.

 

My vote is 35% for sleet on defenders. and corrs/trolls/mm/doms take a small hit on theirs. Cold still retains tremendous "spike" -res with sleet+HL and they aren't removing stacking ability of psuedo pets, so it is still more or less the king of -res (although that should probably go to poison or sonic imo). 

[siolfir]

16 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Freezing Rain is only -35% on Defenders and -30% on everyone else, so it also does not correctly follow modifiers. But like, Defenders had Dark Miasma first, so we can assume they should be the base value to determine what everyone else should be at. How is that handled with Freezing Rain? Should the Defender version by -40% and everyone else -30%, or should Defender stay -35% and everyone else be -26.25%?

A good correction. I'll edit.

 

23 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

As for bumping tarpatch up to 40% for fenders? I'd say "where's my bump?" as a poison player. But I also don't really want envenom bumped up, it is already a super strong debuff with very real limitations. 

Envenom is already -40% on Defenders.

[Frosticus]

36 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Envenom is already -40% on Defenders.

exactly. And tar patch is 30% on defenders. You bump tarpatch up by 33% "just cause"  you should bump up other -res powers by 33% too to maintain parity. 

 

Or does dark deserve a special exemption due to it being a t2 huge aoe, excellent control, perma with SO's power?

[siolfir]

16 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

exactly. And tar patch is 30% on defenders. You bump tarpatch up by 33% "just cause"  you should bump up other -res powers by 33% too to maintain parity. 

 

Or does dark deserve a special exemption due to it being a t2 huge aoe, excellent control, perma with SO's power?

Okay, I misunderstood where you were going with that, but the argument for Envenom is that it didn't start with Defenders, was 30% on non-Defenders already, and was already buffed when ported so that would be why it wouldn't get a buff.

 

As I said before, Dark Miasma was incorrectly ported for Corruptors and Masterminds, and then later to Controllers. While correcting Twilight's Grasp this has already led to a buff to the power for all ATs, and the request in the thread - which I didn't originate, but felt I should reiterate while everyone was trying to shout them down - is for a buff to Tar Patch so that the numbers that Masterminds, Corruptors, and Controllers were used to are the numbers used for those ATs, which would mean a buff to the power's scale and would make the Defender version stronger than it currently is while essentially leaving it alone for the other ATs with the set. It would still be the same "bug fix" because it would use AT scaling, but a buff would roll in at the same time. Not changing how the power worked by rolling in a buff at the same time was something that has already happened while adjusting powers to use the correct modifiers with the Tanker and Brute changes to their epic pool ranged attacks, where their ranged modifiers were increased so that the powers didn't suffer a nerf.

 

My request was in the old thread when there were people asking about nerfs to Sleet because of the nerf to Tar Patch, and that was to remember that Sleet started at 30% for Corruptors, and should remain at that value for the AT it originated on rather than using the current Defender value - which was also incorrectly ported - as the baseline.

Edited March 18, 2020 by siolfir
because I did?

[Trickshooter]

17 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

You bump tarpatch up by 33% "just cause"  you should bump up other -res powers by 33% too to maintain parity.

Let's wait and see the big picture before we start thinking like this. It seems clear that support sets are getting the next big balance pass, so buffs for Poison could be part of that already.

[Frosticus]

5 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Let's wait and see the big picture before we start thinking like this. It seems clear that support sets are getting the next big balance pass, so buffs for Poison could be part of that already.

that's been my position the whole time. And exactly why I'm saying tarpatch doesn't need a substantial buff for defenders right now.

 

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

My crystal ball tells me that once all the AT modifiers are respected they will likely do a deep dive into some of the sets that are really struggling (TA, some aspects of poison, sonic, maybe FF) and a once over of the good sets to spruce up some things (powers like frostworks for example). I'd also expect a few powers to be trimmed down (rhymes with bar-light).

 

That seems to be the direction they are moving in to me at least.

 

FWIW they are also moving way faster than the old devs imo. But everything still takes time.

 

 

[Frosticus]

18 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Okay, I misunderstood where you were going with that, but the argument for Envenom is that it didn't start with Defenders, was 30% on non-Defenders already, and was already buffed when ported so that would be why it wouldn't get a buff.

 

As I said before, Dark Miasma was incorrectly ported for Corruptors and Masterminds, and then later to Controllers. While correcting Twilight's Grasp this has already led to a buff to the power for all ATs, and the request in the thread - which I didn't originate, but felt I should reiterate while everyone was trying to shout them down - is for a buff to Tar Patch so that the numbers that Masterminds, Corruptors, and Controllers were used to are the numbers used for those ATs, which would mean a buff to the power's scale and would make the Defender version stronger than it currently is while essentially leaving it alone for the other ATs with the set. It would still be the same "bug fix" because it would use AT scaling, but a buff would roll in at the same time. Not changing how the power worked by rolling in a buff at the same time was something that has already happened while adjusting powers to use the correct modifiers with the Tanker and Brute changes to their epic pool ranged attacks, where their ranged modifiers were increased so that the powers didn't suffer a nerf.

 

My request was in the old thread when there were people asking about nerfs to Sleet because of the nerf to Tar Patch, and that was to remember that Sleet started at 30% for Corruptors, and should remain at that value for the AT it originated on rather than using the current Defender value - which was also incorrectly ported - as the baseline.

Ultimately it likely won't be as simple as tracing back lineage.

But if we did:

dark started on defenders - so 30% is correct. 22.5% is now correct for secondaries

cold started on corrs so 30% is correct?

but sleet was a direct copy/paste of freezing rain, which was NOT correctly adjusted between defs and trollers (35%/30%). So the argument that cold should be 30% for secondaries only stands up if we pretend that the power didn't already exist in a different secondary which was never adjusted correctly to begin with. 

 

I'm guessing storm was designed for defenders and given to trollers, so the 35% of freezing rain is probably intended. But that would have been decisions from decade(s) ago and for me doesn't really create a strong foundation of an argument. Long story short, the lineage argument ultimately doesn't matter that much beyond evoking passion. 

[siolfir]

14 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Ultimately it likely won't be as simple as tracing back lineage.

But if we did:

dark started on defenders - so 30% is correct. 22.5% is now correct for secondaries

cold started on corrs so 30% is correct?

but sleet was a direct copy/paste of freezing rain, which was NOT correctly adjusted between defs and trollers (35%/30%). So the argument that cold should be 30% for secondaries only stands up if we pretend that the power didn't already exist in a different secondary which was never adjusted correctly to begin with. 

 

I'm guessing storm was designed for defenders and given to trollers, so the 35% of freezing rain is probably intended. But that would have been decisions from decade(s) ago and for me doesn't really create a strong foundation of an argument. Long story short, the lineage argument ultimately doesn't matter that much beyond evoking passion. 

Either way, it shouldn't end up at 22.5%.