Mordernize Buffs

[ZeeHero]

Its pretty stupid buffs like ice shields, sonic shields and FF cannot target the user. It would be nothing but a huge improvement if these buffs were brought up to modern design standards, and affected the user as well.

 

it wouldn't even significantly affect the balance of power, just make soloing a bit more viable for certain powersets.

[Rathulfr]

Sure, why not? +1

[Blastit]

Is it even possible for the engine to allow you to target yourself?

[ZeeHero]

Just now, Blastit said:

Is it even possible for the engine to allow you to target yourself?

No clue, but if its possible to at least make it that when casting an aoe buff on a nearby ally, it affects you as well (Force Fields, Speed Boost, etc) it would be a huge improvement to the game.

[Naraka]

I believe the last discussion on this took into account the amount of buff, the uptime/upkeep and the circumstances of set/AT balance being that support type ATs aren't meant to have easy amounts of armor available in bulk without some sort of high cooldown or limited duration.

 

All you have to do is look at sets like Force Field and Super Reflexes or Energy Aura and the amount of defense and endurance/sec as well as the amount of power picks and then stand them next to each other.  One is a set solely focused on an individual user and the other focused on the whole team and the individual user.  On top of that, balance within the AT shifts further and sets like Trick Arrow need even bigger changes just to get near the central AT reference of balance.

 

And then would the AT be justified having more personal armor toggles in the epics?  

Edited April 5, 2020 by Naraka

[ZeeHero]

the sets which focus on buffs which cant be applied to themselves are already underperformers in need of buffing. Kin doesn't count since kin is all about Fulcrum Shift- which applies to everyone.

[ScarySai]

+1.

[0th Power]

Eh...

[Wavicle]

MORDERNIZE!!!!!!

[Wavicle]

51 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

the sets which focus on buffs which cant be applied to themselves are already underperformers in need of buffing. Kin doesn't count since kin is all about Fulcrum Shift- which applies to everyone.

Cold Domination and Thermal Radiation are not underperformers.

Force Fields and Sonic are.

[Vanden]

This would make sets with those ally shields have better defenses than a typical Sentinel, and all it would take is a trip to a P2W vendor to pick up one of the buff pets to bounce your buffs off of. Have to say no.

[Wavicle]

Perhaps a more reasonable suggestion might be to give the (example) Force Field user a Small Passive Defense Buff simply for having taken the power.

Emphasis on SMALL.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, ZeeHero said:

the sets which focus on buffs which cant be applied to themselves are already underperformers in need of buffing. Kin doesn't count since kin is all about Fulcrum Shift- which applies to everyone.

You didn't really respond to those criticism brought up.

 

Just so I don't have to repeat them:

 

 

 

That isn't to say that I'm against improving certain sets in certain ways but blanket "make AoE buffs affect the caster" change isn't the answer.  Some sets with AoE caster affecting buffs likely need a look at too.  For example: for the sonic and FF shields, combining the effects of their 2 shields into 1 power and then making the free power something that can benefit the caster.  Cold Domination doesn't need help, though and Thermal Radiation already has a leg up on having +res and heals.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I mean, I don't know if it's necessary, but for Sonic and Forcefield shields, as well as a few other powers, the answer as to how to do it would be to change it from a targeted power to a PBAoE affecting the caster. I know it's not that simple but it seems the most likely fix.

 

[ZeeHero]

Just make them affect the caster... ffs, all of the defense buffs from Time affect the caster. and almost all to all of elec affinity ones can if it chains to you. there is no legitimate reason not to bring other buffs up to par.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I agree but i think the defender inherent might need a look at 1st or solo they'd be very overpowered. 

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Cold Domination doesn't need help, though and Thermal Radiation already has a leg up on having +res and heals.

Well, only in regards to direct support. Cold has monster debuffs that makes it by no means lacking compared to therm.

[Lines]

Is this the definition of modern?

 

Not entirely against the idea, I agree that the support sets need a bit of levelling against each other for solo play. I think it would have some significant balance issues if it was directly enabled for every buff, like Fortitude or Forge.

 

I'd love to see it on forcefields to give us Tankfenders.

[Razor Cure]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Perhaps a more reasonable suggestion might be to give the (example) Force Field user a Small Passive Defense Buff simply for having taken the power.

Emphasis on SMALL.

This.

I agree that letting cold toons buff themselves would be totally awesome, and possible overpowered (especially with patron shields + IO def builds). On the other hand, I dont think self buffing would make ALL support sets stupid awesome.

Sure, a therm could get some nice resists with self shields + epic shield + tough/IOs...but the set has NOTHING else to stop incoming damage. Just one decent heal. Same with SOnic..but even worse, with no heal at all (but mez prot is nice). FF would get crazy levels of def...but thats basically all FF does anyway. And they can already get a lot of defence.

The obvious comparisons are Nature and Time..that both have great ally buffs and all work on Self. I think most of the elec ones do too?

 

Another thing self buffs would do is encourage people to actually take the shields. Make it so the self buff (small, as Wav suggested) only hits you when you buff others. Or perhaps..just taking the power gives a small bonus, but they you get a bit bigger one, as an incentive to actually use buffs on a team.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Perhaps a more reasonable suggestion might be to give the (example) Force Field user a Small Passive Defense Buff simply for having taken the power.

Emphasis on SMALL.

This, I think I could agree with. Otherwise, "How much do you want the buffs to decrease in return?"

[Monos King]

15 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Sure, a therm could get some nice resists with self shields + epic shield + tough/IOs...but the set has NOTHING else to stop incoming damage. Just one decent heal.

This kind of reasoning is the main reason I can't get behind the idea. We really can't be undermining the significance of those buffs; what are you trying to be, a sentinel? A scrapper? Support sets are squishies, if you want to solo on them you have to play a bit differently. And getting self heals + self +res is pretty good; you can't talk about what other things it doesn't get and suggest that because it wouldn't get those things it wouldn't actually be all that. Getting automatic capped fire res for instance as therm defender would be something else for instance. 

 

Support sets aren't supposed to be reinforced, I think this is silly. Some of the sets happen to have strong self affecting buffs, like time, and others like cold have weaker self affecting buffs that don't need to be recharged. Arctic Fog is a really good power. Therms focus is healing and +res, which nature also does to different degrees in different ways with different debuffs. I'm 100% sure this change won't happen anyway, and I'm speaking less to you than I am to everyone, but I would like to take the opportunity to express that changing the way powers work just to make things like soloing easier when the play style hasn't actually been ineffective in anyway isn't a good idea. Precedents and creep and all that.

[Razor Cure]

8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

if you want to solo on them you have to play a bit differently.

I see what you are saying, Monos but..and a big but..Time/Nature both say a big, fat Hello.

Both those sets dont have to play any different, just because they are solo. Therm/Cold/Sonic all have more than 3 powers they cant use at all when solo. Even Kin, with my fav buff ever (sb) at least has tools (siphon speed and transfernce) to provide somewhat similar buffs to themselves.

 

15 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Precedents and creep and all that.

 

16 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Some of the sets happen to have strong self affecting buffs

Like..Nature and Time? Funny that. And sure, Sonic and FF get bubbles, but no other self buffs.

Again, to me, a slight self buff to these sets should be more to encourage people to use the very powers that are meant to be supporting a team, than to make everyone tanks.

[Naraka]

3 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

I see what you are saying, Monos but..and a big but..Time/Nature both say a big, fat Hello.

 

And just like Titan Weapons, they deserve a big fat critical stare.

 

This is exactly what I always talk about when people start advocating for buffs.  They don't want to see things getting nerfed despite needing a *good* reference point for your buffs.  Players versed in the meta will look at the meta builds and things getting buffed will be in reference to the *meta* sets and not the *balanced* sets.  I'm all for helping weaker sets...but not to push them into the meta territory (in this case, Time, Darkness Affinity and Nature).

 

7 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Again, to me, a slight self buff to these sets should be more to encourage people to use the very powers that are meant to be supporting a team, than to make everyone tanks.

That is already the case.  Those that skip the supporting team powers are doing so likely to chase the meta.  Meta players don't need to be catered to.  They will naturally gravitate to the most powerful combinations and there is nothing you, I or any buffs to sets will do about that.

[Wavicle]

Frankly, Time and to a lesser extent Nature are overpowered by design, they were pay gated sets originally, and should not be used as a measure for set design going forward.

[Monos King]

11 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Frankly, Time and to a lesser extent Nature are overpowered by design, they were pay gated sets originally, and should not be used as a measure for set design going forward.

Yeah that. And in the case of time there is still the trade off of the long recharge for the group self affecting buffs, which can be mitigated when your a maxed out god, but there are seriously no issues that can't be remedied when your epic level awesome and very few discussions should use that as a reference point. 

 

@Razor Cure Just because a few powers can potentially cross into self sentinel or scrapper level protection doesn't mean every buff set should. I'm not about to call for a nerf to time and nature just because they are universally super effective, but they are definitely outliers. The focus should always be on the others, and not the self, for support classes. I'm totally not down for this rotation of philosophy. And if the main justification is to persuade others to get the armor sets(which it certainly isn't for the OP at least) that's super silly. You have groups so controlling that people shun knockback, everyone better know that if your a support set and you arent picking up THE REASON YOU ARE INVITED that you're about to have a bad time. I PvP and don't really need blaster nukes, you better believe I still get them when I'm about to go PvE. Group armors are of an even higher magnitude of priority than that. 

 

A controller sitting around with maxed out resistance and eternal AoE holds. Imagine that. No no, I am vehemet on this one. Let's maintain the integrity and ~purpose~ of our classes. This is already seriously being harmed in light of a lot of OPness in the game, but even then I wouldn't call for a nerf. People should be strong; and I think it's the content that should update in compensation. But with the homogenization of roles in full swing because of it, I'm so not ok with this. What would even be the point of having intricacies and differences if the support classes are like this? They need to keep their trade offs and their focus. Especially when if they don't it will set a precedent for other ATs to go the same route.

 

Edit: If you're referring to these changes convincing people to roll defenders and controllers and stuff rather than scrapper (as opposed to convincing defenders to get group shielding) that also wouldn't work anyway. People that want self protection and damage aren't rolling support ATs. No point in balancing around them.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Monos King
nerd -> nerf