Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[Solvernia]

Literally everybody uses this power (except for a few people who refuse to out of spite/protest) because they're pretty much obligated to in order to be viable or compete with other players who do have it. This means not only one less power that everyone could be taking but also one less power pool everyone can choose from. Kind of a steep price for something so ubiquitous.

 

The last time something like this happened, it was with the Fitness power pool, and they eventually reworked that entire pool to be automatically granted to all players.

 

There's no reason to not make Hasten an inherent power. No need to change anything else about it, just automatically give it to everyone at level 2 and keep everything else as is.

[Troo]

No

[Solvernia]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

No

Show your work.

[BrandX]

How exactly do people need it to be viable?

 

I almost never take it.  So far, I have it on my DP/Nin Sent and thinking about taking it on my Elec/Elec Brute.  Didn't need it on my StJ/Nin Scrapper.  Ice/Nin Stalker.  And many other characters, which are usually taken to the "Get enough DPS to solo AVs without Incarnates, in final enhancement slotting"

 

By your logic, we should just be given soft capped defenses, because we're just not competitive without it, compared to those who do have it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 minutes ago, Troo said:

No

 

11 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Show your work.

 

The work was shown in the other thread. And the thread before that. And probably that other thread as well.

 

/jranger

[Bill Z Bubba]

42 minutes ago, tidge said:

For totally selfish reasons that I can justify (COMICS!) I'd sooner have Tough be made inherent than Hasten.

 

27 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Move Weave into its slot in Fighting and I would definitely go for this.

/sarcasm on

 

Just make 'em both inherent! EVERYBODY always takes them both so EVERYBODY always has that wasted power pick of boxing or kick! Matter of fact, make all the leadership powers inherent, too!

 

/sarcasm off

[ShardWarrior]

33 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Literally everybody uses this power (except for a few people who refuse to out of spite/protest) because they're pretty much obligated to in order to be viable or compete with other players who do have it.

There are so many false presumptions attempting to be passed off as fact in this, it make anything else in the post pointless to read. 

[Psyonico]

The only time I take Hasten is if I'm aiming for a very specific build (ie Perma PA, Perma Dom) otherwise I find it kind of a waste of a power pick as most of the time I can get enough global recharge to do what I need without it.

[Bionic_Flea]

ALL POWERS ARE NOW INHERENT!

[Uun]

I have ten 50s. Three have Hasten. The others are quite viable.

[Infinitum]

 

Aaaand here we go again.

[darkgob]

22 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

There are so many false presumptions attempting to be passed off as fact in this, it make anything else in the post pointless to read. 

This.  Sometimes I take it, sometimes I don't.  Obviously if I'm looking for +Recharge on a build, then I'm definitely taking Hasten.  If I have room for a power in a build and don't have anything else I really want to take, I'll probably just take Hasten.  Otherwise I generally do not bend over backwards for it.

 

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

The last time something like this happened, it was with the Fitness power pool, and they eventually reworked that entire pool to be automatically granted to all players.

You're attempting to draw a comparison with the Fitness pool that just does not hold.  Stamina was critical for most characters in the early game due to a lack of enhancements to reduce enhancement costs, and in some cases because an endurance/recovery boosting set power simply won't be unlocked until a later level.  Let's not kid ourselves -- Fitness was made inherent for one reason and one reason only, and it was Stamina.  It was that important.  Recharge, on the other hand, is not nearly as important.  Is it nice?  Of course it is.  But does not having Hasten make leveling most powerset combinations an unbearable slog?  Of course not.

 

No.

[Solvernia]

Just now, darkgob said:

But does not having Hasten make leveling most powerset combinations an unbearable slog?

It does, yeah. Especially if you're playing a powerset in the early levels that only has one 'attack' set: scrappers, tankers, brutes, sentinels, stalkers, SoAs. City of Heroes' power mechanics are already pretty janky, and Hasten does well to lubricate that jank by letting people continuously use their powers without having to sit around and do nothing every couple of seconds.

[BrandX]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

It does, yeah. Especially if you're playing a powerset in the early levels that only has one 'attack' set: scrappers, tankers, brutes, sentinels, stalkers, SoAs. City of Heroes' power mechanics are already pretty janky, and Hasten does well to lubricate that jank by letting people continuously use their powers without having to sit around and do nothing every couple of seconds.

That's why you have Brawl and an Origin Attack.  You can even slot up Brawl and respec those slots out later.

[Outrider_01]

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

pretty much obligated

Nope it is a choice.  Obligated means compelled for a reason like duty, not a compulsion by habit.  Hasten is chosen because it had more value and utility than flurry/jumpkick/whirlwind ect.

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

. This means not only one less power that everyone could be taking but also one less power pool everyone can choose from

FOTM is a poor argument.  You don't need to take it, but again their isn't a lot of good power pools.  Medicine and Presence are not exactly a useful option outside theme and you only really need 1 travel power really.

 

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

Fitness power pool, and they eventually reworked that entire pool to be automatically granted to all players

Bitching and whining moves mountains doesn't mean the world moves in same direction.

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

There's no reason to not make Hasten an inherent power. No need to change anything else about it, just automatically give it to everyone at level 2 and keep everything else as is.

Hmm, very OP in value/utility/performance and its free.  So basically needs to be nerfed to like half recharge from 70% or longer un-enhancable recharge rate. 

 

Inherent fitness isn't exactly zero to full green/bars, it only freed up 3 picks for 2 enchantment slots you put in stamina  (rule of 3 enhancements, not IO available procs).  You had to pay 3 pics to use 2 slots, but hasten only needs 1 pool and 1 pick.  Sounds balanced with out a poor argument of "obligated manditory"

Edited May 8, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Solvernia]

2 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Hmm, very OP in value/utility/performance and its free.  So basically needs to be nerfed to like half recharge from 70% or longer un-enhancable recharge rate. 

I mean, you only get one extra power slot and pool choice out of the deal. This is a straight up "make builds more diverse and everyone happier" option. Literally nobody loses out.

[Outrider_01]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

I mean, you only get one extra power slot and pool choice out of the deal. This is a straight up "make builds more diverse and everyone happier" option. Literally nobody loses out.

For the medicine pool, presence, or a second travel power?  Or other pools.  I did say that, there is not exactly that many pools in demand, even for diversity.  And in primary/secondary, you should already know what you want and decide around that; not decide around power pools.

[Burnt Toast]

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

Literally everybody uses this power (except for a few people who refuse to out of spite/protest) because they're pretty much obligated to in order to be viable or compete with other players who do have it. This means not only one less power that everyone could be taking but also one less power pool everyone can choose from. Kind of a steep price for something so ubiquitous.

 

The last time something like this happened, it was with the Fitness power pool, and they eventually reworked that entire pool to be automatically granted to all players.

 

There's no reason to not make Hasten an inherent power. No need to change anything else about it, just automatically give it to everyone at level 2 and keep everything else as is.

Hyperbolic much?

 

No thanks... I like it just how it is. 

[Zepp]

From someone who ran Hasten when it was called the pompoms of death and was not popular, I have it on only a handful of my builds. When I found out that the pre-Hasten global recharge for perma-Hasten was the same as for perma-Dom, I dropped Hasten from my dom's build, and doms tend to need Hasten more than DpS classes.

No, Hasten is not required.

 

No, not every build is better with Hasten.

 

I do think that inherent might be a good move (because I think Speed needs a defensive power), but I do not think that it needs to be inherent.

[Zepp]

17 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Hmm, very OP in value/utility/performance and its free.  So basically needs to be nerfed to like half recharge from 70% or longer un-enhancable recharge rate.

There is a thread that I put together that outlines how your proposed nerf of a power that is either slightly above par or slightly below par (depending on your primary and secondary) would hit control and support powersets/ATs much harder than DpS. In point of fact, I've seen many DpS builds that could do higher DpS by dropping Hasten to tighten up their builds with an uninterrupted attack chain at somewhere between 80-100 global recharge (far below perma-Hasten levels).

No, Hasten does not need a nerf. To nerf Hasten would require changes and balance testing for dozens if not hundreds of powers. Nerfing Hasten is not a good idea.

[Yoru-hime]

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

Literally everybody uses this power (except for a few people who refuse to out of spite/protest) because they're pretty much obligated to in order to be viable or compete with other players who do have it.

Things absolutely never heard in-game: "Player X really isn't pulling their weight. They're not trying to run a Hasten-less build, are they?!?"

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

No

 

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

Show your work.

 

[BrandX]

27 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

You don't need to take it, but again their isn't a lot of good power pools.  Medicine and Presence are not exactly a useful option outside theme and you only really need 1 travel power really.

 

This may be the real issue.

 

If I was to make a suggestion, it'd be to get rid of the grab such and such power to move onto the next rung, while keeping the level requirement there.  Don't need to grab Boxing anymore.  However, still have to wait till level 20 to grab Weave.  14 to grab Tough.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Solvernia said:

Literally everybody uses this power (except for a few people who refuse to out of spite/protest) because they're pretty much obligated to in order to be viable or compete with other players who do have it. This means not only one less power that everyone could be taking but also one less power pool everyone can choose from. Kind of a steep price for something so ubiquitous.

 

The last time something like this happened, it was with the Fitness power pool, and they eventually reworked that entire pool to be automatically granted to all players.

 

There's no reason to not make Hasten an inherent power. No need to change anything else about it, just automatically give it to everyone at level 2 and keep everything else as is.

Wow. Let's just unpack this.

 

"Literally everyone uses this power" - prove it. I'm also making the assumption that by "everyone" you're intending to say "it is put on the majority of characters," not "every user has hasten on at least one character," as that's weasel-wording things.

 

"Except a few people who refuse to out of spite or protest."  - Nice of you to assume you know my motivations. I don't take hasten on the majority of my builds because I don't want to. I don't need it. So, word of advice, don't shoot yourself in the foot and sound like rather an arrogant cur by making statements like this.

 

"Because they're pretty much obligated to in order to be viable" - No, they aren't. Every powerset is perfectly viable without hasten. I have played literally hundreds of powerset combinations. You know how many needed hasten to be "viable?" Zero. Hasten is a "nice to have" power in some instances. That is it. (That link is from live, and incomplete as I had multiple sets. That does not count the characters here, either, obviously.)

 

(Currently, across all servers I have about 80 characters. The majority on one server - 75. Remove two that are base builders or NPCs - 73. Of them, I have it on... possibly two. And I'm considering removing it on one since it's rarely used. Know how many are not "viable?" Zero.)

 

"Or to compete with other players who do have it." Unless you're in PVP, this is not a competition. You don't have to compete with anybody.

 

"This means not only one less power that everyone could be taking but also one less power pool everyone can choose from." Well, not everyone takes it, so personal choice is personal choice.

 

" Kind of a steep price for something so ubiquitous." It's the same price as any other power, pool, primary, secondary or ancillary.

 

"The last time something like this happened, it was with the Fitness power pool, and they eventually reworked that entire pool to be automatically granted to all players."  Specifically *Stamina* was taken by a majority of players (and it really was a majority at that time.) AND that required not one power (like Hasten,) but *three* to be taken (sprint/leaping/health  - two of three as a prereq.) Hasten, again, does not. It's a very low cost choice if someone wants (note, not needs) it.

 

"There's no reason to not make Hasten an inherent power. " Yes there is. It's not as needed as you say,  and I don't want the side effects (from having to make costuming choices to avoid glowy hands to having to change slotting to deal with the endurance issues of having powers trigger faster in the low to mid game) of it.

 

There are other ways to get more recharge if desired, given IOs, which makes Hasten even *less* "required" than you wish to portray it as.

[SwitchFade]

I'm terribly sorry, I cannot support this.

 

Hard no vote.