Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[Outrider_01]

On 5/8/2020 at 10:16 AM, Zepp said:

There is a thread that I put together that outlines how your proposed nerf of a power that is either slightly above par or slightly below par (depending on your primary and secondary) would hit control and support powersets/ATs much harder than DpS. In point of fact, I've seen many DpS builds that could do higher DpS by dropping Hasten to tighten up their builds with an uninterrupted attack chain at somewhere between 80-100 global recharge (far below perma-Hasten levels).

No, Hasten does not need a nerf. To nerf Hasten would require changes and balance testing for dozens if not hundreds of powers. Nerfing Hasten is not a good idea.

I didn't imply Hasten needs to be nerfed.  I meant to imply if it were to become inherent, it wouldn't be 70% or it would have to be longer recharge than possible to make perma (longer recharge or shorter duration buff) to be used like a combat click (kinda like how you choose to use inspirations when you need them).  Or its like "Yay! 70% free!....OH SHIT! ENDURANCE CRASH AND ZERO RECOVERY FOR 10 SECONDS; ALSO CAN'T POP BLUES!" (like rest with its massive -resist/def debuff for the recovery/health; a cost for the benefit).  I mean, there has got to be a balance for that 70% if it was given as an inherent, no way would that percentage be given for free without repercussions.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 10:40 AM, Greycat said:

"The last time something like this happened, it was with the Fitness power pool, and they eventually reworked that entire pool to be automatically granted to all players."  Specifically *Stamina* was taken by a majority of players (and it really was a majority at that time.) AND that required not one power (like Hasten,) but *three* to be taken (sprint/leaping/health  - two of three as a prereq.) Hasten, again, does not. It's a very low cost choice if someone wants (note, not needs) it.

People need to understand just as you said it, back in the day it looked like this

 

Lines = Power pick

White = O base power slot

Yellow O is enhancement slots added (IO bonuses are excluded, this to get full effect of just slotted enhancements without)

 

Used to be like this

• Fitness 
  • Swift O
  • Jump O
  • Health O
  • Stamina OOO (+ OOO <-- Pre I4 when 6 slots benefited, 3 after : This is a comparison)
    • (any 2 previous powers to get Stamina, only reason for fitness)
• Speed
  • Hasten OOO (+OOO <- Pre I4 when 6 slots benefited, 3 after : This is a comparison)

Now it looks like this

• Inherent
  • Swift O
  • Jump O
  • Health O (OO choice of Health IO procs added, not mandatory)
  • Stamina O (O choice, 1 Endurance IO proc added, maybe a Endurance Modification)
    • (You don't pick any of these! They are given to you!)
• Speed
  • Hasten OOO 

Thats it, 1 power pool for 1 power with 2 slots added.  Not 2 power pools, 4 powers, and 4 enhancement slots (10 slots pre-I4).  Amazing about of saved power picks and enhancement slots for diversity.  And with enough IO bonus recharge, you only need the base slot in Hasten.  All that saved, for 1 power pool pick.

 

Hasten is a tool - Its like eating a salad and soup, you use both a fork and a spoon....it isn't mandatory to use a fork for soup you just go with what works. People saying Hasten is needed, try eating soup with a fork (has to be thin soup, not beef stew) or spaghetti with a spoon and see how that works out.  Spoon, not so much when eating a steak or spaghetti (you only get 1 spoon! no chopstick action).  Although you can use a fork/spoon/knife for ice cream but 2 of the choices are going to be really awkward.

 

Going to sum it up with a tl;dr - Hasten is nice to have, it isn't need though.  And IO bonus + Hasten, it just gets better.  Got to change your mind set to "from required" to "a tool" and what you can do when making a build for a character; you just can't have it all.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 10:40 AM, Greycat said:

I don't want the side effects (from having to make costuming choices to avoid glowy hands

There is tintable and minimal graphic options for hasten, just about all power picks I believe.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Greycat]

3 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

There is tintable and minimal graphic options for hasten, just about all power picks I believe.

 

Yes there is.

 

Which I don't have to worry about on the majority of my characters because I don't have hasten. 🙂 And don't want to have to go through... what did I say, 75? costumes to turn that off on multiple slots.

[Outrider_01]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

worry about on the majority of my characters because I don't have hasten. 🙂 And don't want to have to go through... what did I say, 75? costumes to turn that off on multiple slots.

Challenge accepted! *runs off to make eleventybillion costumes with all characters and use minimal graphics*

 

But really, I pretty much use the default costume and maybe a second on a few.  4 was good back in the day, now its way to much.

[Outrider_01]

40 minutes ago, GM Tahquitz said:

Did a topic merge, since it's essentially the same discussion.  Carry on.

I was like WTF!?!?!  just as I was replying .

 

Now its 2 threads of discussion, kinda like people yelling to be heard over each other and going "what were we talking about?  It was hasten, but someone started talking about aardvarks I think.  Nerf Aardvarks, buff GM threadjacking."

[Snowdaze]

3 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Challenge accepted! *runs off to make eleventybillion costumes with all characters and use minimal graphics*

 

But really, I pretty much use the default costume and maybe a second on a few.  4 was good back in the day, now its way to much.

Heresy, we need more costume slots! Don't you ever change your clothes? I heard if you don't switch your costume around enough you get a "stink lines" aura!

[Rylas]

On 4/9/2020 at 2:21 PM, Abysmalyxia said:

Imagine there was a pool power that upped your resistance by 70%.

Imagine there was a pool power that upped your damage by 70%.

Imagine there was a pool power that upped your accuracy by 70%.

 

Then imagine you showing up on these forums and telling people that you think that shit is perfectly balanced. Do that and then hopefully you can understand why I'm making the puzzled black guy face dot gif while reading your post.

This is a terribly flawed argument, much like your opening post. Let's looks at why this particular argument is terrible at best, or disingenuous at worst.

Let's take the resistance example. Many ATs cap res out at 75%. And only 2 cap out at 90%. If we're being generous to the case you're trying to make and looked at 90% res caps as our baseline, then you're talking about a pool power that gets you 77.78% percent of the way to a cap. Hasten, by comparison, only gets you 17.5% of the way to a cap (recharge cap of 400%). So your example is already miles ahead of Hasten. If you wanted a pool power that was comparable in terms of how it boosts resistance like Hasten boosts recharge, then it would need to increase resists by 15.75%. Oh wait, Tough increases S/L by 20%. Hasten doesn't seem so crazy as your example, does it?

You're also leaving out the cost of having Hasten. I may have perma-Hasten on *some* of my builds, but I only do so with builds that can afford the recurring endurance crash. That's not lots of builds. In my opnion, Hasten is a costly power that can really put you in a pinch if it crashes at the wrong time. Not to mention, you're burning through endurance way faster with it continuously. Then there's the issue of locking yourself into a power pool that might costs you other perks your build could need.

 

This is why your opening post failed to make a compelling argument at all. You've only address the one good part of Hasten while conveniently ignoring its costs. Don't wave the flag of being "reasonable" if you're going to cherry pick the facts.

[WanderingAries]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 9:57 PM, Snowdaze said:

If the current Dev's could just come out and publicly say that Hasten is too polarizing and they don't dare touch it, we could put all this nonsense to rest!

That won't stop the 100+ request threads though.

[Snowdaze]

8 minutes ago, WanderingAries said:

That won't stop the 100+ request threads though.

no probably not

[Zepp]

9 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

I didn't imply Hasten needs to be nerfed.  I meant to imply if it were to become inherent, it wouldn't be 70% or it would have to be longer recharge than possible to make perma (longer recharge or shorter duration buff) to be used like a combat click (kinda like how you choose to use inspirations when you need them).  Or its like "Yay! 70% free!....OH SHIT! ENDURANCE CRASH AND ZERO RECOVERY FOR 10 SECONDS; ALSO CAN'T POP BLUES!" (like rest with its massive -resist/def debuff for the recovery/health; a cost for the benefit).  I mean, there has got to be a balance for that 70% if it was given as an inherent, no way would that percentage be given for free without repercussions.

Wait, so you are basically saying that you would have to nerf Hasten if it were to be made inherent. While I was pointing out that said nerf would disproportionately harm control and support sets and associated ATs. So basically, the idea of converting it to inherent while nerfing it is untenable.

[Blastit]

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

Wait, so you are basically saying that you would have to nerf Hasten if it were to be made inherent. While I was pointing out that said nerf would disproportionately harm control and support sets and associated ATs. So basically, the idea of converting it to inherent while nerfing it is untenable.

If control sets are specifically harmed by the removal of Hasten, wouldn't that be cause to discuss how control sets operate and what changes might be necessary? If Hasten is a crutch for control sets we should probably think about why they need that crutch in the first place.

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, Blastit said:

If control sets are specifically harmed by the removal of Hasten, wouldn't that be cause to discuss how control sets operate and what changes might be necessary? If Hasten is a crutch for control sets we should probably think about why they need that crutch in the first place.

You do realize that you are talking about adjustments to dozens if not hundreds of powers, associated play-testing, and feedback?

I would love for Control and Support sets to get looked over, but that takes time and resources. It would also result in a bunch of DpSers complaining about the lack of attention for DpS sets.

So, rather than an extreme investment, why not just leave Hasten's 70% alone for now?

[Blastit]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

You do realize that you are talking about adjustments to dozens if not hundreds of powers, associated play-testing, and feedback?

I would love for Control and Support sets to get looked over, but that takes time and resources. It would also result in a bunch of DpSers complaining about the lack of attention for DpS sets.

So, rather than an extreme investment, why not just leave Hasten's 70% alone for now?

Sure, there's not a pressing need to do anything right exactly now. But the time and work needed to implement a suggestion is only about the practicality of doing so, not whether it's a good or bad idea. This forum is mainly about the quality of the idea. Who knows what kind of developer possibilities will be available in the future, anyway.

[Reiska]

One of the big difficulties with truly evaluating the impact of Hasten (and/or recharge buffs in general) on the game is that unlike most of this game's buffs, Recharge works in a very granular fashion - while any amount of Recharge buff provides a nominal benefit, that benefit is only actually realized if it allows you to actually use a given power more often than you would otherwise.  Hasten is such an essential part of the Defender/Controller/similar AT toolkit, in large part, because those ATs traffic in a lot of powers with very long recharges, so the efficacy of being able to use those powers more often will be easily felt.  Conversely, on Sentinels or a melee AT, Hasten's primary efficacy will vary heavily based on the armor set chosen; Willpower characters, for example, won't benefit nearly as much from it as, say, Regen will.  This isn't to say that melee ATs' primaries won't benefit from Hasten, but with melee primaries, you're generally working in an environment where Hasten is only subtracting fractions of seconds from your attacks' recharges after global recharge bonuses from your build, and so it's a very real open question whether or not that will actually improve your attack chain. 

 

An example I'm well familiar with: Dual Blades' "introductory" attack chain (Blinding Feint-Ablating Strike-Vengeful Slice-Sweeping Strike, AKA Blinding Feint-Attack Vitals combo) is gapless and repeatable with very low levels of global recharge - basic IO set slotting will do the job, in fact.  Improving on this attack chain (the optimal one, AFAIK, is BF-AS-SS-AS) requires a whopping 315% recharge to be gapless, and around 275% to overtake the Attack Vitals chain in spite of having small gaps.  But this means that until you can hit that 275-315% recharge range (which is probably going to require frankenslotting for ED cap recharge over defensive set bonuses, slotting other powers for global recharge set bonuses over defensive set bonuses, fitting in 5 LotG mules, running Hasten, probably running Spiritual Core Paragon instead of Musculature, and maybe even using Ageless in your Destiny slot), Hasten is doing absolutely nothing to improve your attack chain.

 

And even then, you have to consider everything you gave up defensively for that.  Is it worth it?

Edited May 11, 2020 by Reiska

[Heraclea]

12 hours ago, Reiska said:

One of the big difficulties with truly evaluating the impact of Hasten (and/or recharge buffs in general) on the game is that unlike most of this game's buffs, Recharge works in a very granular fashion - while any amount of Recharge buff provides a nominal benefit, that benefit is only actually realized if it allows you to actually use a given power more often than you would otherwise.  Hasten is such an essential part of the Defender/Controller/similar AT toolkit, in large part, because those ATs traffic in a lot of powers with very long recharges, so the efficacy of being able to use those powers more often will be easily felt.  Conversely, on Sentinels or a melee AT, Hasten's primary efficacy will vary heavily based on the armor set chosen; Willpower characters, for example, won't benefit nearly as much from it as, say, Regen will.  This isn't to say that melee ATs' primaries won't benefit from Hasten, but with melee primaries, you're generally working in an environment where Hasten is only subtracting fractions of seconds from your attacks' recharges after global recharge bonuses from your build, and so it's a very real open question whether or not that will actually improve your attack chain.

This is pretty much my experience as well.  I don't have Hasten on Heraclea (Inv/DM tanker) because I don't see her benefitting from it.  If I were relying on Dull Pain there might be a point, but I don't, and shaving a few seconds off of Siphon Life, already slotted for recharge, accuracy, and healing, won't do all that much.  Hasten is, as you note, for characters whose bread and butter powers have very long recharges, like blaster nukes and controller AoEs.  Hasten is vital to those characters and usually taken early on them, and they'd be not much fun to play without it in its current form.  And happily, Hasten has no prerequisites, no annoying throwaway powers like the Fighting pool does. 

[Zeraphia]

19 hours ago, Reiska said:

One of the big difficulties with truly evaluating the impact of Hasten (and/or recharge buffs in general) on the game is that unlike most of this game's buffs, Recharge works in a very granular fashion - while any amount of Recharge buff provides a nominal benefit, that benefit is only actually realized if it allows you to actually use a given power more often than you would otherwise.  Hasten is such an essential part of the Defender/Controller/similar AT toolkit, in large part, because those ATs traffic in a lot of powers with very long recharges, so the efficacy of being able to use those powers more often will be easily felt.  Conversely, on Sentinels or a melee AT, Hasten's primary efficacy will vary heavily based on the armor set chosen; Willpower characters, for example, won't benefit nearly as much from it as, say, Regen will.  This isn't to say that melee ATs' primaries won't benefit from Hasten, but with melee primaries, you're generally working in an environment where Hasten is only subtracting fractions of seconds from your attacks' recharges after global recharge bonuses from your build, and so it's a very real open question whether or not that will actually improve your attack chain. 

 

An example I'm well familiar with: Dual Blades' "introductory" attack chain (Blinding Feint-Ablating Strike-Vengeful Slice-Sweeping Strike, AKA Blinding Feint-Attack Vitals combo) is gapless and repeatable with very low levels of global recharge - basic IO set slotting will do the job, in fact.  Improving on this attack chain (the optimal one, AFAIK, is BF-AS-SS-AS) requires a whopping 315% recharge to be gapless, and around 275% to overtake the Attack Vitals chain in spite of having small gaps.  But this means that until you can hit that 275-315% recharge range (which is probably going to require frankenslotting for ED cap recharge over defensive set bonuses, slotting other powers for global recharge set bonuses over defensive set bonuses, fitting in 5 LotG mules, running Hasten, probably running Spiritual Core Paragon instead of Musculature, and maybe even using Ageless in your Destiny slot), Hasten is doing absolutely nothing to improve your attack chain.

 

And even then, you have to consider everything you gave up defensively for that.  Is it worth it?

This is very well said, I completely agree with you.

 

For a lot of my ATs, Hasten ends up being "worth it" fire/cold corruptor, fire/fire blaster, tw/bio scrapper, etc. due to longer recharge powers (namely inferno/follow through) and trying to make Blazing Bolt come up in the chains as often as possible to gain on DPS and speed. However, with something such as a DB/WP Scrapper, I can see where Hasten is completely redundant and outclassed by the several ways to improve survivability and fit procs to occur more often than trying to pigeonhole into the extremely hard to achieve attack chain.

 

For most "regular" Defender/Corruptor/Blaster/Controller/Dominator/Mastermind (sometimes)/PB/WS/Fortunata/Crab/Sentinel, Hasten is a pretty worthwhile pick, for Scrappers/Stalkers/Tankers/Brutes, it may very well not be worth it. Interesting!

[Gulbasaur]

20 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

For most "regular" Defender/Corruptor/Blaster/Controller/Dominator/Mastermind (sometimes)/PB/WS/Fortunata/Crab/Sentinel, Hasten is a pretty worthwhile pick, for Scrappers/Stalkers/Tankers/Brutes, it may very well not be worth it. Interesting!

This is sort of what I've found - on my storm/water defender, very high recharge turns storm into a gimmick set to a massive AoE monster with control on levels that would make a dominator blush. On my fortunata, though, with decent separate melee and ranged attack chains and several "nuke" tier powers, it's completely unnecessary. 

 

I think it's broken. The original devs called it broken. However, in City of Heroes breaking builds and getting archetypes to do something they shouldn't is basically half the fun (controllers have been tanking since before City of Villains existed and defenders were once what you'd use if you wanted to solo AVs). 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Sovera]

On 4/16/2020 at 8:38 PM, Blastit said:

 A resistance-based character that also has softcapped defences as well as enough +tohit, +regen and +recovery to make anything but damage buffs unnecessary

*polishes the last Rad Armor/MA build*

 

When I made the original linked in that post I thought I had made something incredible but received only polite interest and a flood of well meant persons doing their own spin upon it. To this day I don't have a particular clue about the servers having been flooded by copies of that build but from the lukewarm reception in the forums I doubt it.

 

 

Unrelated, what amuses me most about this threads is the sudden arrival of a random saying how we have a problem, we don't know we have a problem, but they will enlighten us, and teach us the way to be without this problem that we did not knew we had but that they came to inform of us of.

 

 

No travel powers until 14 and being sent to cavalcade across the areas having to dodge purple mobs using only Sprint was a problem.

 

Fitting three powers (two of which semi useless) to have Stamina so that we were allowed to play the game was a problem.

 

Taking one power if we want to or not (unlike Stamina) at whatever level we want to for a 40% recharge benefit is not a problem.