Weekly Discussion 51: Kallisti Wharf!

[Sakura Tenshi]

I hate to be that guy, but one thing I want to point out to those who want Battalion to show up: how are we going to design the Battalion. The Live Devs hadn't gotten to anything more than concept design documents and never got to artwork, nevermind actual models. As of now the closest things we have to Battalion enemies are Well Echoes (possibly) and Neo-Shivans. A whole new enemy group might call for whole new modeling, art, and animation assets, resources and ability I'm not sure the team feasibly has.

[Ukase]

The one thing I would like is a genuine Nemesis focused Task Force. There are a couple of shadow shard tfs with Nemesis in them - but they are focused primarily on Rularuu. I'd even be okay with the Family and Nemesis either joining forces and then the TF ending in each trying to double cross the other. Or not. 

I also think it would be good for some AVs and Heroes to be walking around. If you're a hero in the AV's "Territory" - they literally shake you down for some exorbitant sum, like 10M inf, or they kill you. Or you fight them and get 10 million if you win. or some other random amount. 

If you're a villain in the hero's territory - you either run away when confronted, or if not - you literally go to a prison cell like they have in certain Council and CoT maps. Or pay a fine. Or beat the hero and rob them. 

[Zombie Hustler]

I love the look of this place, but I agree with others that it needs its own flavor. I'm not sure the background that was planned (to the extent I'm aware of it) really did had much to it. I seem to recall that it was intended to be a villain/hero shared zone, with some shared content but also unique storylines for each faction (kind of like Incarnate DA). That doesn't really do anything for me, though.

 

We've already got the gritty dockside Independence Port, so how about we do something different with Khallisti?

 

Maybe it's the Fisherman's Wharf of the region, combined with Silicon Valley. Hi-tech firms, artsy-craftsy people. I could see the Syndicate liking it as a spot to try and rebuild, but let's go beyond that and create something new.

 

How about a new villainous cabal that relies on high-tech cyber warfare? Industrial saboteurs. Sometimes they take over clockwork to achieve their goals; maybe some missions take the heroes directly into cyberspace to fight these baddies off (there are all kinds of funky new maps that could achieve this; the Praetorian Penelope Yin ones or Mother Mayhem ones, for instance).

 

You could have a group that is the Paragon equivalent of the Luddites; the 99 Percenters. Protesting against the bourgeoisie. Maybe some ex-Lost who live in some of the seedier areas.

[Zombie Hustler]

11 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

I'll be a strong dissenting voice and say "Yay" to Arachnos.  They clearly already have a presence in Kallisti.  I think that should be built off of and explored more deeply. 

To build off of my idea above: what if the Arachnos in the area are a more "respectable," business-like group. The tech-side of Arachnos. Trying to make their way into the region. They could be one of several groups establishing themselves in the economic Mecca of Khallisti Wharf. Crey, Arachnos, Portal Corp, probably some other from lore, and some new ones. There could be a lot of industrial sabotage going on, with the new "Hacker" faction kind of screwing things up for the rest.

 

This could give the option of playing some of these sides against type, as well: Arachnos, Inc. is under attack- who do the players side with? The hackers or the tech firm? Which one is in the wrong- or is anyone?

 

(Among other stories going on in the region).

[goldenstriker]

This is a small, specific request with lots of complications to work through, but I love the idea of keeping it a "level-less" zone. 

(as mentioned by Sakura Tenshi in a previous post, which I'm not sure how to quote in here).

- Maybe it's just because I've developed an emotional attachment to the huge costume contests we have in there, but it's fun to have a place where all can come and roam for fun.

- Don't know what that may mean for creating zone content, but it could keep it open to many different contacts, tfs, etc. that could include a large range of levels. More stories = ❤️ 

- Would be most ideal for people who want to play the game through for content, rather than those that want more endgame trials. I am personally of the former (surprise, surprise 😛)

 

Another one, just for fun: Take some of the legendary AE story arcs, hall-of-famers, and make them "real" in KW!

[MTeague]

On 5/18/2020 at 7:19 PM, Sakura Tenshi said:

I hate to be that guy, but one thing I want to point out to those who want Battalion to show up: how are we going to design the Battalion. The Live Devs hadn't gotten to anything more than concept design documents and never got to artwork, nevermind actual models. As of now the closest things we have to Battalion enemies are Well Echoes (possibly) and Neo-Shivans. A whole new enemy group might call for whole new modeling, art, and animation assets, resources and ability I'm not sure the team feasibly has.

Not entirely true.  

 

There is a Hellion boss in the Bonefire story arc who is named "Battalion".

I would love to see him used as a wink and a nod to it, while they (as you say) take the long road to reallllly design battalion / coming storm content properly.  (Even if "properly" might mean, 2025 or never)

 

Maybe a "Sally" style badge for "Defeat Battaliion!"  🙂

Edited May 19, 2020 by MTeague

[ArchVileTerror]

Battle Lion!

[Snowdaze]

BIG RED BALL!

[Aberrant]

I feel that Kallisti Wharf should make use of groups that received high level refreshes towards the end of the game's life or never appear in high level zones. First off, Council should be there, it's a stones throw from Independence Port where they have a decent presence and Boomtown where they have an actual base. There are currently no Level 50 zones with Council in them (Rikti War Zone they appear but only around Level 40), the only way to fight Council at Level 50 is in missions and TFs. Could give them their Boss War Walkers from Marchand's arc for a bit of variety. Could also have the UPA in zone if they're still around following Marchand's arc, having conversations and making deals with the Council.

 

I'd say Family is also a good option with the refresh they got for Levels 40+ with Praetorian weapons, also not found at Level 50 in zones, highest I think is St Martial which caps at 40. They could be making deals with Syndicate (high level versions found in Mr G's Primal Earth arcs) for the guns, who could be clashing with the Tsoo. They need a new purpose with Dark Astoria dealt with. 

 

In summary:

• Council
• UPA
• The Family
• Syndicate
• Tsoo

All groups that got refreshes towards the end of the game's life and/or don't appear in high level zones (apart from the Tsoo)! Win-Win!

Edited May 20, 2020 by Aberrant

[Darmian]

Re Arachnos, I'm stealing an idea from an SG, that a "Consulate" of some sort be there (LOL), with Redsiders who participate somehow having "Diplomatic immunity" and can't be touched (depending on the mission/TF/whatever, Arachnos will just tut and say, how tragic, take it up with our government representative, as you know these are difficult times, and there is tension between us, have you spoken to our UN envoy?

 

HA!

[Android]

I like the idea of it being a zone that primarily revolves around gangs like The Family or the Syndicate. This means the current devs can avoiding dipping too much into what Cryptic had planned with Battalion (problem there, of course, is the pressure to live up to what would or might have happened on live), and it gives some attention to groups that didn't get a lot of air time in the original game. It might also be nice to have arcs that actually feature Sebastian Frost as an AV (for heroes) / ally (for villains). He appears in City of Villains for about five seconds and is just a really uninspiring NPC. We could, at least, face off against muscle-for-hire types hired by Frost (I'm thinking villains along the lines of Rhino, Shocker, Sandman, etc.)

 

To build on some of the ideas already presented here, what about an over-arching storyline focused on a gang war between The Family and misplaced Syndicate, both trying to take control of the zone as new territory? This means Praetorian lore can be skipped over quickly (what more do you need to know than "Syndicate were Praetorian, now they're here") and allows for plenty of story options on both blue and red side. If you chuck in some cool supervillains for good measure the whole thing could take on a really cool Spider-Man flavour (I have always loved those 1980s Spider-Man arcs about gang wars between Kingpin / Hammerhead / The Rose / and so on).

 

I really love the feel of the arcs that get heroes from levels 1-15 (the Skulls stuff in Kings Row in particular), and it'd be nice to have more stuff like that at a higher level but with a lighter tone. There are already zones that can make you feel like Superman (most of the stuff in the 40-50 range) or Dr Strange (Dark Astoria), and we have early arcs that have a very Batman / Daredevil flavour (like that early KR stuff). It would be great to see a zone focused on capturing a kind of Spider-Man feel. Gang wars, colourful supervillains etc. That's what I'd like to see, anyway!

 

EDIT: I've just taken a spin around KW, cause I realised I'd never actually been to the zone, and having now seen how it's laid out, it'd be even better if The Family had control of the rundown villain side of the zone, while Syndicate had control of the hero side (with intermittent gang wars on the middle island).

Edited May 20, 2020 by Techspert

[laudwic]

I have a little bit of a different take so here it goes.  In making these suggestions, I just want to thank you all for everything your doing keeping this game going.  I played CoH and CoV years ago, and it has been a wonderful stress relief during the current Pandemic/reduced work load.  I appreciate everything your doing and I'm fine if you leave the zone as is.  (I like the convenient University for crafting.)

 

Personally, I don't think the ascetic of the zone needs to change, as I want this zone to function more as a 'wealthy' zone with a tension between the haves and have nots.  The ascetic reminds me of a planned and manicured community.  One that puts on a pretty and controlled face but has no soul and serious problems underneath.  The community looks nice, its clean and pretty, but, when you get down to it, its only pretty on the surface.  For example, have you considered having sewers here, nicer ones than the caverns but having people live in them because they can't afford to rent an apartment on the service?  Think of New York or Las Vegas.  This sewer system would start out safe as normal paragon streets, but lower levels could have more enemies and also mission doors.  

 

One of the many things I like is that CoH has litter in zones, places that look just dirty.  There shouldn't be any here, there shouldn't be paper flying in the wind.  Its clean in this zone.  When adding people walking around, add people cleaning up.  Everyone walking around should be clean.  Not shaggy people pushing shopping carts.  There are no homeless on the streets of Kallisti Wharf.  

In the main parts of the streets, there shouldn't be enemies.  This is the safe community in Paragon.  They pay to keep it safe to keep the other dangers out.  In the alley's there will be mobs but I think it would be better that they are not directly in sight.

 

Maybe the protest mechanic from Going Rogue could come in to protest the 1%.  Maybe we could have the occasional 'Occupy Kallisti Wharf' event.

 

Make one of the buildings in the zone a museum dedicated to superhero art.  Reward your volunteers by having pictures/screen shots of their characters in it and do a contest to add more from the community.  Add other exhibits via existing art in the game.  Make it a place to go in and look at the art.  Put in a badge or two.  Also set missions in there.  Set mayham missions to destroy the art, other missions to protect.  A story Arc about the museum, obtaining artifacts for the display, finding out that new sculpture is actually a person that has been petrified, mission attending a gala in the museum only to have it attacked, villains attacking a gala to steal a diamond on display.  While players could normally access the museum main floor, the back rooms, storage, offices, restoration areas would normally be off limits but could be used in missions.  For villains, you could have a mission to 'case' the museum where you have to click on certain things ala a patrol mission.

 

The University was initially for crafting, but we could have a ton of contact there.  Maybe open up another one of the buildings and put contact in.  The anthropology department could always use help.  I wouldn't mind if my character helped out a very overweight and unattractive member of the archaeology department named Dr. Smith who would definitely go out and retrieve that item or take care of that problem but he has a lecture coming up and the students would just be incredibly upset if he wasn't there to present. 

 

Groups I would like to see:

 

The Family hasn't seen the use it could.  A break up the protection racket story arc could be fun.  Its time to meet and deal with the heads of the crime families in Paragon.   

 

Instanced ambushes in a store or the university would be a new twist.  I remember a post on the old live forums during one of the early Rikti invasions that a player fleeing from Rikti went into a store and the developer, playing a Rikti, followed him in.  Imagine crafting in the University and suddenly a mob starts shooting at you. 

 

Nemesis is always good.   I would love to see disguised Nemesis mobs walking around, not clickable, as normal civilians and then attacking as an ambush.     

 

Personal Security forces and 'Rent a Cops' - Paragon city is a dangerous place, people are being accosted everywhere you go, if you can afford it, shouldn't you have security for your family.  Isn't it the right thing to keep them safe.   Who is really running those security operations are they using their knowledge and access to blackmail or worse. . . . Plus, you could have villain robbery missions (go in and get the clickie)  and these are the enemies.  

 

A couple of crazy loner villians out to take over the world would be nice.

 

Hope it helps, and thank you for all that you do!

[ArchVileTerror]

Maybe it's the fact that I live in a real-life Mafia city, but I just don't get this massive appeal of The Family that so many of you have.

Syndicate, on the other hand?  Yeah, ok.  They at least have some -style- and respectability, comparatively speaking.  Seeing the Wharf as a once-Family-run territory getting brutally absorbed by Syndicate interests would make for a pretty compelling story.  Desperate Family goons appealing to Arachnos-backed villains (a.k.a.:  Players) in a bid to repel the Syndicate.  Has potential.  Just be sure to have the Family thoroughly trounced by the end of it.  'cause, you know; player-villains ought to betray the hell outta those mooks!

[Android]

1 hour ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Maybe it's the fact that I live in a real-life Mafia city, but I just don't get this massive appeal of The Family that so many of you have.

Syndicate, on the other hand?  Yeah, ok.  They at least have some -style- and respectability, comparatively speaking.  Seeing the Wharf as a once-Family-run territory getting brutally absorbed by Syndicate interests would make for a pretty compelling story.  Desperate Family goons appealing to Arachnos-backed villains (a.k.a.:  Players) in a bid to repel the Syndicate.  Has potential.  Just be sure to have the Family thoroughly trounced by the end of it.  'cause, you know; player-villains ought to betray the hell outta those mooks!

I guess Mafioso just make for great villains (even if the reality is pretty far removed from the pop culture tropes), and they have a long history in comics. I love Marvel's Maggia, for example. Besides, even if you're not particularly into the Family as an enemy group, what you outline here is exactly what I'd love to see. Throw in some new costumed supervillains for heroes to fight and some themed superheroes for villains to go up against (I'd love to see some kind of costumed "Gangbuster" branch of the PPD, for example), and it would all feel amazingly comic-booky.

That last part is also a great idea and would combat that "I'm not villainous enough" feeling some players get. There should be an opportunity for villains to become the new crimelord of KW at the end of the arc, or at least part of it.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Techspert

[golstat2003]

Optimize the zone then do everything else mentioned in this thread.

[Apparition]

29 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Optimize the zone then do everything else mentioned in this thread.

 

Hopefully with Night Ward while they're at it.

[ArchVileTerror]

and First Ward too.

[Tahliah]

Someone up thread said "incarnate," and that is what I would like to see, as well.  More things for incarnates to do as incarnates, more arcs, more storylines, incarnate level task and/or strike forces (i.e. not trials requiring a league), or yeah, why not a new itrial that is specific to KW?  Incarnate tips and radios would also be nice to have in the zone (not sure if the tips would work since they are available in every zone).  Really just any endgame stuff for our incarnates to do that is not DA or a Trial would be very very welcome.  Some kind of incarnate communicator thing to achieve the same goal as radios / tips, maybe?  Moar incarnate content (anywhere, really, like in Galaxy City . . . but in KW would be awesome).

[ExeErdna]

The "villains" side for the area, Family, Skyraiders, Freakshow, Tsoo and "hero" side Outcasts, Hellions, Skulls, Longbow. Yet isn't this gonna be like a zone that'll have BOTH papers and radios? So we have like a spread of all enemy types? Maybe toss into some more exclusive enemies like Cage, Goldbrickers and PPD

[Marine X]

2 hours ago, ExeErdna said:

Maybe toss into some more exclusive enemies like Cage, Goldbrickers and PPD

This would be an opportunity to allow Hero Characters who really don't want to change alignment to acquire badges for those groups.

 

My thought for spawns would be to give some groups that have a very limited presence the Majority of the Space, I would have to say the Tsoo, and maybe Warriors could use some more Real Estate. I was also thinking that since Kallisti sits at the mouth of the same river that leads to Perez Park it would follow that the southern river banks would be occupied by Hydra, perhaps even occasionally spawning Kraken.

 

As far as a zone event, I was thinking that we have seen nothing of all the Praetorian Clockwork Groups ( other than in their story arcs) since the fall of Praetoria. I think they could make a great Zone event. Use a base White Hole as spawn point and have the Combined Forces of the Clockwork attempt to invade Kallisi Wharf as their new Home by creating a Beachhead on the Island between the Red and Blue Sides of the Map. This would Culminate with the arrival of the SPECTRA Robots and Nightstar.

Plenty of under seen assets here:

 

Neuron Clockwork                                    Anti-Matter Clockwork                                         Anti-Matter SPECTRA

Electrode                                                  Nuon                                                                    Spectra series l

Circuit                                                      Meson                                                                  Spectra series ll

Inhibitor                                                  Baryon                                                                  Spectra series lll

9 Volt ( Boss )                                          Cold Fusion ( Boss )                                   

Meg Snap ( Boss )                                    Radio Active ( Boss )                                              Nightstar ( Arch Villain )

Sizzle ( Boss )                                           Valence ( Boss )

 

Actually forgot:

The Harbor is Home to Sally's Sister Kalli, earning the " Beyond Belief " badge

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Marine X

[Greycat]

*If* there were an Arachnos presence, it should make sense. I get why they have to be the way they are in Bloody Bay (though it makes no sense that a hostile military presence would be left in posession of *anything* in a US city otherwise,) and they feel forced in in Faultline (with the same comment. I mean, seriously. If ... I don't know, Cuba invaded and took over part of Miami, not only would they be kicked out but there probably wouldn't be a Cuba left in its current form. Having it happen in Paragon is just jarring. And yes, it's the same in Nerva and Mercy, frankly.)

 

Any (visible) Arachnos presence should be *small.* Diplomatic mission/embassy size. They can send redsiders around to do things, sure, but there shouldn't be this massive military garrison running half the zone. Heck, have them there to *protest* and "try to get help with" the Longbow incursions back in the Isles - while gathering or disrupting intelligence. Including approaching heroes, or at least vigilantes.

 

Zone tweak: Get rid of the War Walls. At least on the North side of the zone. It's opening out into the ocean. Toss a couple of destroyers there, but - Rikti invasions or no - it would be nice to have a spot "where the war walls end." Since this seems to also serve as a port, I can't see any businesses being thrilled with having to slowly get ships in through giant gates one at a time.  (Indy Port has the same issue, really, as does Talos.) I mean, as a quick (?!?) defense or reaction around the time of launch, war walls "made sense," but between their obvious ineffectiveness (since thy just get shut down by the Rikti during invasions anyway) and all the time that's passed since then, tech should have advanced to something less jarring. GIven we've seen the Praetorian sonic walls and we have some Praetorian population, this could even be a point of contention - new tech to defend (or steal.)

 

Since part of the zone is new, shiny and tech-y, having Crey makes sense. Given the levels and timing, maybe even have a "New, post-Countess, reinvented Crey" trying to show they are more than her scandals. They aren't, of course, but finding out what they're up to and working on now could be interesting.

 

Where there are docks, there's Family, so it makes sense to have some upper level Family as well.

 

Take a beat from the AMA information and have this be where the Circle (who had an outpost under where Statesman Plaza is now) emerge and push for recognition (instead of the old plan to destroy yet another zone to bring Orenbanga up to the surface.) Of course, this sparks some conflict between them and the bondage boys of the Mu Mystics.

 

While we're at it, why not use it to hint at "the larger world?" It's a port. Have more representation of (and missions for...) groups from the rest of the world. Put in the offices of Gadzul Oil (and look into what they're doing, with the mystic/tech angle.) Have some representation of groups (good and bad) from Africa (touching on the Pantheon, as well as an *ancient* magic tradition in general,) Europe, Asia - and  yes, some Preaetorian representation. Drop in a Kheldian embasssy larger than just Sunstorm, Shadowstar and Moonfire. Heck, give a nod to a dead EAT idea and have Avilans.. avilians? .. just as beings run across by Portal Corp.  Have the Virtea found, dig into their background and their relationship with the Coralax - maybe they're looking for freedom.

 

There's possibilities.

[starro]

Use this zone for more incarnate content and advance the story line with the imminent invasion of Battalion.   I have been hung up on that for a long time and would like to see Homecoming tackle some serious lore and story advancement.    Praetoria was nice, but ready for something new.    

 

I do like the comments about more rogue/vigilante content which makes sense between 20 and 40.  Lower unused hazard zones should get renovated for that content.  I would like to see where the new Boom Town was going. 

 

Zone optimization is good.  i have far less crashes moving to 64bit client, but man that 32 bit client, 50 people in the zone and my computer gives up.

 

 

 

[mechahamham]

One of the things that I believe either Manticore or Positron said while working on some of the later issues is that there's a real problem in tying things too close to the original design intent. "We're asking new, creative people to work on something decided by people who don't even work here any more if we do that." In our case, we're asking volunteers to complete work by people who were quite unfairly fired years ago.

 

I think that we either need to let the Battalion go, or put development of Battalion-related content in the hands of someone who is particularly devoted to the idea and really wants to carry that torch. I personally think that, at least until we know one way or the other how Homecoming's status as a 'legal' hoster and/or developer will go, we need to say that the Battalion is on indefinite hold.

 

IMO, We don't need more itrials. We need more 1-50 content for all the players making new characters.

 

There are lots of good ideas in this thread. I particularly like the ideas about Praetorian Wu Yin and Syndicate attempting to move in to the area. We don't know what the Sky Raiders are planning after the big reveal in Market Crash. I do think that Nemesis and the Rikti have been done ad nauseum.

 

I also think that there are lots of good NEW villain groups lurking within creative minds. Mission Architect is full to bursting with them, if you can just dig down below the compressed crust of Fire farms. Even if we want to stick to ideas that have been partially fleshed out in game, the Coralax and Black Blood of the Earth haven't been well explored at all.

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, mechahamham said:

One of the things that I believe either Manticore or Positron said while working on some of the later issues is that there's a real problem in tying things too close to the original design intent. "We're asking new, creative people to work on something decided by people who don't even work here any more if we do that." In our case, we're asking volunteers to complete work by people who were quite unfairly fired years ago.

 

I think this was his response to a lot of hanging content, and it was... rather annoying at the time. Sure, I get "giving new people creative freedom" or whatnot, but you end up with "War and pea" and "The lord of t" that way, too...

[Xeres]

I think this zone should be a tougher than usual zone - maybe the TF(s) should be incarnate level.  I think there shouldn't be many civilians on the street, and the enemy groups should be few.

 

My idea for the back story is that some Praetorian(s) (I'm not sure who) fled Praetoria into the this world, and have teamed up with an off-shoot of Arachnos.  This offshoot of Arachnos wants Arachnos to take more firm control of the Rogue Islands and overthrow Recluse.  These two factions (Praetorians and off-Arachnos) set up camp in KW - Praetorians mostly on the "hero side" and Arachnos mostly on the "villain side".  But, both want to keep a low profile, so, the "street-level" enforcers are either Skyraiders or Family on the Hero side and Family or Tsoo on the villain side.  Both off-Arachnos and Praetorians are in negotiations with Crey for weaponry so a few Crey are sprinkled in street-side.

 

All of these street-level groups are kept in line and backed up by Malta who both off-Arachnos and Praetorians have convinced or hired to do so.  Maybe Malta likes this over-controlled vision they have.  The idea would be that the more street clearing that happens, you'll get Malta response teams (like the Rikti spawns during invasions).  These response teams get larger the more people in the party and the more previous teams you've defeated.  No hospitals for you here, when defeated you spawn in an instanced jail that you need to break out of like in door missions.

 

The TF's story would sort of peel the layers from the street enforcers to Malta to the off-Arachnos / Praetorian conglomerate.

 

No Rikti invasions here though.  Maybe atop some buildings are Crey / Malta inspired anti-air with some stolen Rikti technology.