Weekly Discussion 53: How to Increase Villain Population

[Eva Destruction]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Taking over the world and/or watching it burn is for the clinically insane.

 

So is facing off against a giant robot with only your fists and a manhole cover for a shield.  Your point?

[Six-Six]

I was on the second paragraph of "why it's not clinically insane", when I figured it wasn't worth the time and effort to address a faulty premise and conclussion.

Instead...  AWESOME WORK, ImpousVileTerror! Well done indeed. While I may not agree 100% on all of the points you raised, your thoughts were orderly, well presented, and very well thought through.

To add to the already long list of ideas for GM Miss, I propose a bit of reverse-psychology: If we want to INCREASE the redside population, make redside a bit more EXCLUSIVE. People love the challenge, people want what they can't have, and people will go to where they're told not to. One way to do this (not the only way, mind you) is to make the Villain and Rogue alignment powers ludicrously OP. If you switch alignment, you lose the power. is it fair? of course not. We're villains; villains don't play fair. 😃

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Six Six

[Chuckers]

2 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

2 - Aesthetic Changes:
       On an entirely personal and greedy standpoint:  Please, don't "spruce up" the Isles.  The current aesthetic is personally one of the biggest draws.   The Villain zones are TEEMING with life and characterization.   If something -optional- could be done in that department, sure, okay.  But Redside is beautiful just the way it is.
       However . . . the complaint does come up often enough, so it definitely merits attention.  The draw of certain aesthetics is a deeply personal and subjective thing, but perhaps we can attempt to explore some sample mock-ups of the Isles with some different palette options, luminousity, and contrast settings.  Post those images up and see which ones obtain traction under certain criteria, such as:
- Meets the narrative resonance of the Etoile Isles as "The City of Villains."
- Inspires player interest.
- Allows for players' continued, long-term viewing of the material.
       Naturally, still image mock-ups won't give the full picture (excuse the pun) of what the Isles would "feel like" to explore and interact with within the three-dimensional space, but it would be a good step toward some market research.
 
       The feasibility on this, of course, is pretty iffy.  Doing a graphical asset overhaul of an entire portion of the game is NOT a small undertaking.  So, unless the market research shows overwhelming support of the changes, it's really not something obtainable (to the best of my knowledge . . . still wish I could see what we're really working with in terms of developmental experience, skill, time, and resource allocation).
 

 

I think the neon at night in St. Martial is gorgeous.  I love flying around there at night. Yes, that's only one zone, but I think the others have good and bad points, just like blue side.

[ImpousVileTerror]

 . . . a thought occurs.

 

More Fight Clubs!

 

Not just Rikti Monkeys, but captured Longbow!  Devouring Earth critters!  Snakes!

Make an easily-accessible social gathering location for Villains.  Add a caged pit which has random NPCs spawn inside of it, like the Rikti Monkey Fight Club.  Flag the NPCs are enemies to one another.

Basically an NPC-run Gladiator Arena Match-up, at set 5 minute intervals.

 

Maybe it won't solve our population problems, but it would be damned COOL and unique, and at the very least inspire more visitors to check out what's going on in the cage.

(and should this request be seen as valuable enough to implement, I do so hope you will consider immortalizing my main Villainess "Commandant Nongratis" as the one who organized the little recurring bloodbath.)

[Chuckers]

My biggest problem in this whole thread is when people start mentioning opening the game up to full PVP, with or without flags. I am a solo player and my favorite side is redside. Not for RPG purposes, but for the story, zones, characters, everything. I am probably in the minority, but I really feel PvP killed a large portion of the game and the player base. So many changes were done to accommodate the pvp players and their screams of balance and unfairness. I don't want PvP in any more places than it already is and I don't think that's going bring people to redside. You can make the same AT's on either side, so PvP won't make a difference. 

 

One thing I would like to see is some better placements of the ferries/transports. As a lowbie, given a mission on the farthest end of Mercy is painful to get there. Getting a mission at the north end of Nerva makes me want to auto complete it rather than try and get there and then fight my way through the underbrush to find the portal. At least with IP, Steel, and Sky you can hope the train and come out at the other end. 

[Chuckers]

2 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

 . . . a thought occurs.

 

More Fight Clubs!

 

Not just Rikti Monkeys, but captured Longbow!  Devouring Earth critters!  Snakes!

Make an easily-accessible social gathering location for Villains.  Add a caged pit which has random NPCs spawn inside of it, like the Rikti Monkey Fight Club.  Flag the NPCs are enemies to one another.

Basically an NPC-run Gladiator Arena Match-up, at set 5 minute intervals.

 

Maybe it won't solve our population problems, but it would be damned COOL and unique, and at the very least inspire more visitors to check out what's going on in the cage.

(and should this request be seen as valuable enough to implement, I do so hope you will consider immortalizing my main Villainess "Commandant Nongratis" as the one who organized the little recurring bloodbath.)

I totally admire your passion and clear thinking/presentation. I, too, don't agree with everything you said, but much of it makes sense and can really help to improve QoL/Gameplay.  I really enjoyed the Rogue/Vigilante arcs that were specially created and I would love to see more content like that on both sides, but giving red some more love first 😉 I think there would be some amazing player created content by people who love this game and really know the lore and the finer details. 
Some things where the world changes, based on your actions/storyline, would be great. One of the parts I really enjoy about Gold is that when a contact dies.. they're gone from your map. That really needs to happen redside. You could betray a contact and get them killed - either by your hand or another and buh-bye. 

[ImpousVileTerror]

Oh, geez, yeah.   Poor @holymittens!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/10968-feedback-new-story-arcs/

CRITICALLY underrated!  'mittens should have WAY more Rep and that thread should have WAY more replies.  What the deuce, folks?

 

And, well, @GM Miss, it's only Wednesday night (in my timezone, at least), and this thread has surpassed https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18436-weekly-discussion-48-dark-armor/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-208948.

I think we found a real hot topic here.

[Chuckers]

11 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Oh, geez, yeah.   Poor @holymittens!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/10968-feedback-new-story-arcs/

CRITICALLY underrated!  'mittens should have WAY more Rep and that thread should have WAY more replies.  What the deuce, folks?

Totally agree on this. @holymittens did an awesome job and I think too many people just didn't play the arcs. I think when you become a Rogue or a Vigilante, the contacts should pop-up automatically, like Twinshot and Dr. Graves. If you've outleveled the missions, when you get there, you can have the choice of auto-exemping down. 

(Sorry, I know this was off-topic, but I really wanted to add to that comment)

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Chuckers

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

Honestly, I'd just be happy if Arachnos 100% ceased to exist.  I know, they wanted a Dark Mirror counterpart for States, etc, some big organization that could explain why it wasn't total anarchy or just steamrolled by NATO or the USA or Any Nation Really Peeved At What the Villains Have Done Lately.

But I'd have prefered if the Rogue isles were essentially a Failed State, with multiple oligarchs and shady organzations and black markets, but not an NPC Evil Overlord.

However, I'm realistic enough to know, this, will never change.  Much too much baked into the cake now.

I feel like the Rogue Isles would have worked better as a Gotham to Paragon City's Metropolis; a US city awash in crime where everyone in power is on the take and no Batman has arrived on the scene yet.

2 hours ago, Eva Destruction said:

So is facing off against a giant robot with only your fists and a manhole cover for a shield.  Your point?

It could be insane for some, but not all... it wouldn't be for Captain America, for example. No one would accuse him of insanity for doing so, even if the odds were long... because motivation is key. Regardless of their actual ability, the end the hero is trying to achieve is the continuation of things like running water, prepared food and being able to binge Avatar the Last Airbender on Netflix. If they're capable enough to live through the effort their life and that of those in the path of the giant robot get to continue to enjoy good things that if the robot was left to run rampant you and others probably would not.

 

Likewise, even if you know you can't beat it, but are willing to risk your life to give others the chance to get out of the robot's path while you distract it, then you're not crazy, unless you consider every law enforcement and rescue services officer to be crazy for risking their lives to protect others.

 

By contrast, regardless of whether a villain is capable of conquering the world to rule it with an iron fist or intending to cause the world to burn, you are objectively making your life more difficult. You are either desiring your life to become an over-complicated mess where you'll never know another moment without rampant paranoia or desiring to live in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the few remaining people are fighting over the last Twinkie and roll of toilet paper. 

 

In short, being a hero (if you're capable of it) is generally in your long term interests... being a villain (if you're capable of it) with the conquest or burn the world motivations is against your own long term best interests. The only sane villain path is "acquire large quantities of money by whatever means you're willing to pursue and then spend it on things you want; hookers, drugs, politicians, a movie about how awesome you are, an endless supply of Twinkies, your ailing mother's medical bills..." because that is the only villain path where you're not automatically making your life harder in the long run (you still might if you piss off enough people getting that money, but its not automatic).

 

Too many Redside missions involve you doing stuff just "for the evulz" and while it can be fun for a mission or three; long term it just starts to get one-note because your villain isn't building towards anything... even conquering the world; they're just committing random acts of violence for the sake of causing violence. Its Saturday Morning Cartoon level villainy like Cobra Commander or Megatron who are being evil just to be evil so the heroes can stop them from their evil.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Hey, 24601?

Someone posted something new in the Suggestions board just now which might be exactly the type of thing you're looking for:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19762-new-redside-content-ambitions/

 

Hopefully we can cycle that back in to this thread, since they're so tightly related.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

By contrast, regardless of whether a villain is capable of conquering the world to rule it with an iron fist or intending to cause the world to burn, you are objectively making your life more difficult. You are either desiring your life to become an over-complicated mess where you'll never know another moment without rampant paranoia or desiring to live in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the few remaining people are fighting over the last Twinkie and roll of toilet paper. 

You're not wrong but.... well.  The human race is rife with examples of megomaniacal people who hungered for power.  Both historical and current.  It's not hard to find a litany of dictators who willfully chose that life of paranoia and over complicated mess to have POWER NOW.  

 

It's VERY doable to create an all-too-believable character who would make that same choice. You may or may not want to play them, but it's quite easy to visualize it and even empathize with such a character and imagine how this hunger came upon them.

 

Me personally, I channel my meglomania and arrogance into safe things, like programming, playing redside, and playing Civilization type games.  Where I can raze cities of millions to the ground, but it's just pixels on a civ map, so no one really gets hurt.  Power-trip-fantasies have their appeal.  We just have to be well enough adjusted to enjoy it while remaining grounded enough to separate the game from the real world.

Edited June 4, 2020 by MTeague

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Chuckers said:

My biggest problem in this whole thread is when people start mentioning opening the game up to full PVP, with or without flags. I am a solo player and my favorite side is redside. Not for RPG purposes, but for the story, zones, characters, everything. I am probably in the minority, but I really feel PvP killed a large portion of the game and the player base. So many changes were done to accommodate the pvp players and their screams of balance and unfairness. I don't want PvP in any more places than it already is and I don't think that's going bring people to redside. You can make the same AT's on either side, so PvP won't make a difference. 

Full PVP maybe could be for a special server. The time and effort will be rewarded with, as in other games, a low population server.

[metacore]

The ability to have any character jump into any Zone and how this would work with PvP could be handled like this:
- Have a PvP window like the Team window where you set your PvP status
   - Not at all
   - Pop-Up (%CharName% wants to PvP you. Yes/No)  -  default
   - Its their funeral (yes)

Based on the above choice the game shows your target recticle to the other player as Grey (No), Yellow (Ask), Red (Yes).
If Grey or Yellow no powers can be activated/queued AGAINST that target (for Yellow until they click Yes).
For Red then like any foe you can be attacked at any time you are within Aggro range.

If grey and someone tries to attack you nothing happens - you dont know they tried just like when a team mate tries to attack you.

Alternatively ignore all of the above and the enemy player has to Right-Click > Challenge to PvP you.
To stop spammers inc an option to 'Auto-No for the next hour' in the pop-up.

Or something...

[Peacemoon]

8 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

5 - Heroes of Redside, Villains of Blueside

       This is an idea which I really like.   It's also an idea which I know a non-zero number of people vehemently oppose.  Complaints range from the standard "it'll break the game," to the "narratively there's no justification," to the "but it'll make PvP happen."

 

       The game might be pretty fragile, with little changes completely shattering seemingly unrelated components that are "miles away" from the affected code, but as someone who was part of City of Villains Beta . . . I know that it's already possible.  The potential exists within the game code already for this to be added (or, more accurately:  Polished and reactivated).   It's not an insignificant amount of work by any stretch of the imagination; no mere toggle flip . . . but it IS possible.  And even if the code which existed during the City of Villains Beta is not stable enough to use, we DO have Rogues and Vigilantes; the proof is in the pudding right there.  Even if we have to create a NEW Hero Alignment and a NEW Villain Alignment, with their own unique rules for cross-alignment Zoning, it -is- doable.

       The most significant challenge after the coding itself is that each zone would need to be changed to accommodate an opposing alignment Hospital, like the ones in Pocket D or PvP zones.  These would also need to be protected from opposing alignment interference (both player and NPC).  That's a daunting prospect, if only for the potential grief it could cause new players . . . but "bounce back" teleport areas exist, so these barriers don't necessarily need to be one-hit-"arrest" Drones.  Alternatively, the "invading" player would get bounced back to some other zone's Hospital on their native side.

 

       Narratively there is a TONNE of justification!   The Mayhem missions.  The Rogues Gallery and NPC Hero factions.  The Longbow and Arachnos bases in enemy territory.  Not to mention that there are Heroes who have lived their whole lives in the Etoiles (Sea Witch, Scrapyard, Iron Widow), and . . . well, throw a Rock, and you'll hit any number of Villains in Paragon City.  Now . . . yes, there is a -little- problem in terms of "shouldn't all Heroes and Villains be instantly hostile to one another under these conditions?"   Yeah, ok, there's a bit of a narrative disjoint there.  But diplomatic immunity is a thing.  It might take a little mental gymnastics to get there, but I think we can come up with firmer justifications.

 

       PvP is not necessary.  The alignment code is a lot more robust than some people seem to think it is.  Again, not an insignificant amount of work to implement, but the code would even potentially allow for players to choose whether or not to flag themselves for PvP as part of their alignment.  

"Conditional" is the current behaviour when a Rogue or Vigilante attempts to join a team containing a Hero or Villain respectively.

"Neutral" would function like the Warburg PvP, where members of a given alignment can attack one another OR join up in to a team, at their discretion.

 

       The next significant hurdle, though, is adjusting all of the Contacts.   Most of the Redside Contacts are already flagged specifically for Villains, as I recall, but Blueside?  Some of them are a little . . . confused.  Turning a Rogue away for not being a hero at times, but then allowing a Rogue to complete what is clearly a heroic story arc just because it wasn't explicitly flagged as "Hero" in the code.  THIS would be yet another can of worms' worth of work.  Additional Contacts would also need to be added, lest the Heroes of the Rogue Isles and the Villains of Paragon City just end up being a bunch of Street-Sweeping tourists.  Ultimately, though, this would also give a wonderful opportunity for Vigilantes to get the much unrepresented "cleaning up the City of Villains" gameplay they were promised when the middling alignments were first introduced.

       This also wouldn't necessarily "solve" the problem with people feeling the Isles are too dreary, but might at least motivate those players to play alignments or in zones they wouldn't normally consider.

 

       At the very least, investigating this for the Hazard Zones . . . there's potential there.  Boomtown seems the most accessible.

 

Completely agree @ImpousVileTerror.

 

I’m really passionate about letting people play in more zones, regardless of alignment.

 

It would help reduce the red side/blue side segregation, and sometimes I think the discussion between “getting more people to play in the rogue isle” and “getting more villain players” could be unpicked and thought of as two separate issues. 
 

Plus, as we know, there are plenty of villains in Paragon City already - so why not some players villains? Same for heroes on rogue isle. As soon as you create a villain the first thing you see is Longbow. 

 

It would also be good to do an ‘alignment pass’ of contacts and missions, and try to see whether any of them could be loosened up a bit.

 

As for hospitals and the like, this also relates to your post about having an ‘underground’ movement against Arachnos on different islands. Villains in Paragon City wouldn’t travel around via the train surely? Maybe there would be a sewer transport, or use the sewer network a bit more. I don’t have all the answers yet, but there is potential there. 
 

Great posts also!

[Chuckers]

6 hours ago, Troo said:

Full PVP maybe could be for a special server. The time and effort will be rewarded with, as in other games, a low population server.

Yes, a special server would help people like myself not having to engage in PvP (or worry about a flag setting) but, in all honesty, I don't feel a low population server is worth the time and effort when so many other things could be worked on to help improve red side? 

[UltraAlt]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:44 AM, DrInfernus said:

Have to say I completely disagree that comic book culture is binary. Sure, some heroes are heroes, and some villains are villains, but there is a vast amount of grey between those two extremes. 
 

Batman, for example, does the right thing but for the wrong reason. He’s a psycho with a bloodlust and some very dark methods at times. He just directs it towards criminals. Hulk is seen as a villain by the authorities due to the damage and destruction he causes. Then you have the likes of Magneto who does bad things but in the name of a noble ideal. Wolverine is much more or a hero now, but he has a dark past when he showed he was capable of bad things. Would we call Jean Grey/Dark Pheonix a hero or a villain? Lex Luthor is a ruthless vicious character, but much of what he does is motivated by a desire to protect earth from alien threats.
 

Sure, you have your Superman/Captain America style full-blown clean cut heroes and they’re awesome, but thank god they aren’t all like that. Comic book culture is far more about flawed characters battling their own demons more so than perfect heroes battling absolute villains. 
 

Personally, I love that CoX reflects that and gives us the chance to create and explore characters who tread the line between good and evil. 

As I pointed out, the comic book is no longer binary good versus evil. It used to be very much that - especially when it was tightly controlled by the Comics Code.

 

As for Batman, that may be now, but that wasn't in the fact in the Silver Age and most if not all of the Bronze Age. He did kill some villains during the Golden Age, but most of them were psycho killers - it is debatable if this is hero or villain as he was a vigilante as he was not law enforcement. I have no idea how Batman has been portrayed for like the last 15 or so years, as DC Comics had editors that ruined the comic books that I read and I cancelled my subscriptions. (I still have a large comic book collection). Back before the crazies started making Lex Luthor president and turning the Green Lanterns into some kind of Rainbow Brite/My Favourite Pony fantasy (sorry, but that's how I feel about it. Love the Ret-cons if you like. To each, their own), Batman was definitely fought crime along side of Commissioner Gordon and wasn't hunted by him.

 

There were periods when Spider-man was hunted by the police, so, technically, a vigilante, but he was not a criminal even if J Jonah Jameson wanted him to be. He doesn't rob banks (as far as I know)

 

Hulk was created to be a monster. Hulk was the combination of Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde and Frankenstein's creation with a dose of vampire thrown in. Originally, he reverted back to "normal" when the sun came up. He was pure rage and destruction. Bruce Banner had no control at all. Later, like Frankenstein's creation, Hulk was portrayed to have a gentle side which when this state set in calmed him down enough to revert back to Banner. When he was a member of the Defenders, Doctor Strange placed mystic incantations on him to keep him in Hulk form but in a much calmer and controllable state. The Hulk is only really a hero when he is in this controlled state. Is Hulk a villain when he is in his uncontrollable state? Then I ask is Godzilla a villain? Hulk isn't going to rob banks or join a group of villains trying to take over the world.

 

Going Rogue does. CoH and CoV doesn't.

There is already a path to change sides.

Don't force everyone to have access to both sides just because you want to have the ability to do so without having to become a villain in order to behave like villain.

This is a role-playing game and you have to role-play the change.

If you don't want to play a role then you might as well stay in the AE and fire farm all day - once again, my opinion.

Edited June 4, 2020 by UltraAlt

[Naraka]

28 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

If you don't want to play a role then you might as well stay in the AE and fire farm all day - once again, my opinion.

Hey now, listen...

 

There's a lot of potential and good story telling using AE as a tool.  Just because some abuse it for rewards doesn't take that away.

 

Also, as much as I disagree with most of your preferences, I do have to agree with the portion of playing a role tends get flack here despite it being an RPG.  I think people are taking this whole prospect of "I'm a big-bad! I do what I want!" and then roleplaying that as the player sitting at the desk.  No, you're just a lowly participant in the game.  The game dictates the boundaries and you play within it.  Just because your character thinks they can do what they want doesn't actually mean they can unless you put forth the effort to make that happen.

 

I hear a lot of complaints that you're just a lackey, but what if I'm not?  To me, the contact needs me far more than I need them and I can headcanon just how much I leverage that.

 

As for the earlier proposition of rewriting the dialog, can we not?  I'm sure it's in good faith to make "character agency" easier to roleplay, but as described in the post itself:

 

"As much as the rewritten version of this is "scrubbed" of the original flavour, and as much as the original flavour was "fun"..."

 

You're pretty much removing flavor and fun for blandness and staleness.  In the given example, being confronted by something inoffensive and vague will get an inoffensive and vague response.  If confronted by something more directed and offensive, it's easier to grasp the emotions that would accompany such.  If an uptight shrink did post something like that about my character, how the character responds is indicative to the character's psyche.  If they get angry and defensive or go on a rampage or attack the person, there might be some underlying truth to their analysis.  If my character doesn't care, it could be that my character has some acceptance of the analysis...or the analysis is so hilariously wrong, I see no point in actually acting out in response.

 

Flip the script and use the second example, I either have to conjure what the shrink said about my character AND my response, removing aspects of genuine emotion...or just accept the text at face value and see the shrink as a target and nothing more.  The heft of the issue is, to get the flipped script version, extra work has to be put forth that ends up *removing* the previous interaction's authenticity.  I feel it's just better to put said effort into additional content instead.

[DrInfernus]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

As I pointed out, the comic book is no longer binary good versus evil. It used to be very much that - especially when it was tightly controlled by the Comics Code.

 

As for Batman, that may be now, but that wasn't in the fact in the Silver Age and most if not all of the Bronze Age. He did kill some villains during the Golden Age, but most of them were psycho killers - it is debatable if this is hero or villain as he was a vigilante as he was not law enforcement. I have no idea how Batman has been portrayed for like the last 15 or so years, as DC Comics had editors that ruined the comic books that I read and I cancelled my subscriptions. (I still have a large comic book collection). Back before the crazies started making Lex Luthor president and turning the Green Lanterns into some kind of Rainbow Brite/My Favourite Pony fantasy (sorry, but that's how I feel about it. Love the Ret-cons if you like. To each, their own), Batman was definitely fought crime along side of Commissioner Gordon and wasn't hunted by him.

 

There were periods when Spider-man was hunted by the police, so, technically, a vigilante, but he was not a criminal even if J Jonah Jameson wanted him to be. He doesn't rob banks (as far as I know)

 

Hulk was created to be a monster. Hulk was the combination of Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde and Frankenstein's creation with a dose of vampire thrown in. Originally, he reverted back to "normal" when the sun came up. He was pure rage and destruction. Bruce Banner had no control at all. Later, like Frankenstein's creation, Hulk was portrayed to have a gentle side which when this state set in calmed him down enough to revert back to Banner. When he was a member of the Defenders, Doctor Strange placed mystic incantations on him to keep him in Hulk form but in a much calmer and controllable state. The Hulk is only really a hero when he is in this controlled state. Is Hulk a villain when he is in his uncontrollable state? Then I ask is Godzilla a villain? Hulk isn't going to rob banks or join a group of villains trying to take over the world.

 

Going Rogue does. CoH and CoV doesn't.

There is already a path to change sides.

Don't force everyone to have access to both sides just because you want to have the ability to do so without having to become a villain in order to behave like villain.

This is a role-playing game and you have to role-play the change.

If you don't want to play a role then you might as well stay in the AE and fire farm all day - once again, my opinion.

But no one would be forced to GO to both sides, would they? If you wanted to stay in the Rogue Isles as a villain, no one would force you to go to Paragon City. If you’re a hero happy in Paragon, you can stay there too. What you’re talking about isn’t forcing people ti do anything, you’re talking about denying people something. 
 

And as for roles... Joker and Batman share Gotham. Lex Luthor and Superman share Metropolis. Spider-man and Green Goblin share New York. There are AVs in Paragon City already and there are Heroes in the RI. So if AI-controlled Heroes can go to the Rogue Isles, why can’t player controlled ones go too?

 

I just don’t get the argument FOR continued segregation. I really don’t. 

[longdayinrehab]

16 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

4 - Villain Motivation and Agency (or "The Lackey Problem")

       Yeah

       . . . this beast.

 

       As mentioned, I tried to get a community project rolling to address this.  While it definitely garnered attention and interest, it has had little in the way of progress for a while now.   I will definitely be focusing attention on it again once I get my plate cleared, though.  It's something that has been on my radar ever since being invited to City of Villains' First Wave Beta.  And really, it's not uniquely a problem for Redside; there are Blueside, Neutral, and Yellowside Missions which are also guilty of stealing the player's agency to determine their characters' motivations, feelings, and behaviour.  It's just that when it comes to villainy, the old "Heroes React, Villains ACT" mantra that was being repeated since CoV's alpha development cycle (probably sooner, even) . . . well!  It's true in theory, but in practice the existing writing falls far short of delivering in that department.

       The most common "argument" against correcting this is the "but it's an MMO, you can't fix it."  I don't mean to get toxic in saying this, but I honestly feel sorry for people who see things that way.  It strikes me as such a dearth of creative problem solving . . . I feel awful for saying this.  English isn't necessarily the best language, but it DOES offer us some wonderful tools in terms of writing through different personages.  Much of the most problematic writing in this game is either from a First-Person or Second-Person perspective.  The best way to address villain motivation is to get in there and rewrite everything to Third-Person.

 

       Don't:

"This uptight shrink has analyzed you for a series on notable villains in the Protector. She says your violent tendencies stem from an unhappy childhood and feelings of inadequacy, and that you suffer from extreme intimacy issues. Words do not describe the rage welling inside you."

       Do:

"Doctor Vanover is a popular newspaper psychotherapist who writes for the Rogue Isle Protector.  She has published her analyses on the psyches of a number of notable villains, $MISSION_LEADER included.  Vanover makes sweeping generalizations about violent tendencies stemming from an unhappy childhood and feelings of inadequacy, followed up by claims of extreme intimacy issues.  She's likely angered many villains with publicized claims like these, which makes her a valuable target for kidnapping."

 

       As much as the rewritten version of this is "scrubbed" of the original flavour, and as much as the original flavour was "fun," this rewrite places all the power to define the player-character squarely in the hands of their player.  It also doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of the original motivation either.  The player can still say, to themself or to their teammates, "words do not describe the rage welling up inside of me!"   It is the player's choice now, as it always should have been.

 

       This isn't impossible.  This isn't even difficult.  It's not some imaginary ideal which can't be obtained.  But it would be a truly massive undertaking.   We're talking about doing editorial work on pretty much the entirety of the game's writing.  A task where whoever works on this project would need to retain the original intent of the material, and keep as much impact as possible.  Hence my attempt to encourage it as a community project.  Distributed work is productive work, assuming it has strong direction.  And the more we do this work, the better we can become at refining it.

       Obviously, not everyone will be a fan of this kind of change.  There are clearly players here who are expecting and enjoy an experience where they trust the author to know the player-character better than the player does.  I think that kind of writing is perfectly fine and dandy . . . for games like Uncharted, or The Last of Us, or even Mass Effect.  But City of Heroes, and ESPECIALLY City of Villains?  No thank you.  I will not speak for everyone, but I -AM- certain that I am not alone in wanting agency over my own characters.  I have done a LOT of research on this particular issue and the impact it has on other players' enjoyment.  A lot.

 

       Of course . . . 

       A complete rewrite of the game's narrative content is NOT the only way to start addressing this issue.

       Or at least, it's not the easiest way.

       While some people were apparently up in arms about it, the premise behind  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19486-more-info-when-looking-at-contacts/ is solid.   If we were to apply that treatment to Redside content, we could forewarn players about what motivations the content is written to express.  I think that would be a huge improvement, giving players the authority to say "okay, hold on.  This arc says 'Villain wants money?'  Yeah, not my villain.  Pass."

       But then naturally, we would then have to provide more content to compensate for the loss of potential paths that player will now choose to take.  But the prospect of new content is generally received more favourably than the suggestion of changing existing content, even if the change is relatively superficial.

 

       Someone **!!!** approached me recently with a lovely idea, which I -really- hope they'll post soon.  But, to wet some appetites, the concept is pretty simple:  A new villain chooses a Motivational Contact at character creation.  Much like the Epic Archetype Contacts combined with the Yellowside "Path" Contacts, this Contact would be persistent throughout the entire villain character's career from level 1 to level 50.  Every 5 Levels they would give the player a story arc which is specifically catered to the Motivation the player chose at the start.  Beyond that, I have lots of ideas of how I'd implement this idea, but it's someone else's baby.  I am going to give them a chance to post their take on it before I twist the idea in to my own thing.

 

**!!!**

They just posted it!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19762-new-redside-content-ambitions/

 

I need to follow the **!!!** link and read what has been done/discussed, but I would greatly enjoy assisting in something like this on a writing level. I may not have any coding background (though I understand conditionals/variables fairly well), but I can edit sentence structure. If you have a list of forum names somewhere for people to recruit for your undertaking, by all means include me.

[DoctorDitko]

Fun, interesting ideas here, but many of them call for a lot of work on the part of the Devs.

 

If I may, I'd like to suggest a cheaper idea, that works in the real world. In real life, why do people become "villains?"

Usually because they perceive the benefits outweigh the risks. Most criminals are in it because they see a quick, easy way to get what they want. They perceive the chance of being caught is minimal, while the rewards are excellent.

 

So: Why not give villains double xp and influence? Maybe with a more significant penalty for being defeated? Something like 4x the debt, or perhaps a "time-out" which can be reduced by performing "community service" missions.

 

Apparently, it works in real life...

Edited June 4, 2020 by DoctorDitko
clarity

[Patti]

Constant ambushes for villains!   Just nonstop hurt train of wannabe challengers and do-gooders, who always just underestimate the villain.   Content that comes to you!

[GM Miss]

18 hours ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

And, well, @GM Miss, it's only Wednesday night (in my timezone, at least), and this thread has surpassed https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18436-weekly-discussion-48-dark-armor/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-208948.

I think we found a real hot topic here.

I saw! This is amazing. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by GM Miss

[ImpousVileTerror]

I don't know if that was a joke, @Patti, but frankly; it's actually a really good idea!

Over in the Ambition thread, @TalynDerre mentioned overt versus covert pursuits of Ambitions.  Creating a great, big "kick me" sign for your Villain is actually a great potential goal for an overt Ambition.

It also has the added benefit of being relatively easier to implement than a lot of other ideas we've proposed.

Granted, it would need to have some additional functions built in to it to prevent the all-too-frequent issue of a high level player leaving their ambush in a low level zone.

 

I would propose a solution in the form of one of two methods:

1)  The ambush is neutral, until such time as they get in to close proximity to their target.  

2)  The ambush is flagged to only treat their target as an enemy, and everyone else as neutral.

The former would probably be better, but could still end up leaving high level ambushes in low level zones if the player was intentionally griefing or just really oblivious.

 

Thanks for the interest, @longdayinrehab!  The thread is at:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18029-community-project-adding-villainous-depth-to-redside-missions-and-story-arcs/

However, given some recent feedback, I'm thinking of tweaking it from a project into an exercise instead.  I'm hosting an in-game campaign session tonight, but I'll make a note to refresh that thread some time soon.

[Eva Destruction]

20 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

 

It could be insane for some, but not all... it wouldn't be for Captain America, for example. No one would accuse him of insanity for doing so, even if the odds were long... because motivation is key. Regardless of their actual ability, the end the hero is trying to achieve is the continuation of things like running water, prepared food and being able to binge Avatar the Last Airbender on Netflix. If they're capable enough to live through the effort their life and that of those in the path of the giant robot get to continue to enjoy good things that if the robot was left to run rampant you and others probably would not.

 

Likewise, even if you know you can't beat it, but are willing to risk your life to give others the chance to get out of the robot's path while you distract it, then you're not crazy, unless you consider every law enforcement and rescue services officer to be crazy for risking their lives to protect others.

 

By contrast, regardless of whether a villain is capable of conquering the world to rule it with an iron fist or intending to cause the world to burn, you are objectively making your life more difficult. You are either desiring your life to become an over-complicated mess where you'll never know another moment without rampant paranoia or desiring to live in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the few remaining people are fighting over the last Twinkie and roll of toilet paper. 

 

In short, being a hero (if you're capable of it) is generally in your long term interests... being a villain (if you're capable of it) with the conquest or burn the world motivations is against your own long term best interests. The only sane villain path is "acquire large quantities of money by whatever means you're willing to pursue and then spend it on things you want; hookers, drugs, politicians, a movie about how awesome you are, an endless supply of Twinkies, your ailing mother's medical bills..." because that is the only villain path where you're not automatically making your life harder in the long run (you still might if you piss off enough people getting that money, but its not automatic).

It is insane for Captain America to do it.  He only survives because the plot requires him to.  Under the real world logic that you're trying to apply to a goofy superhero game, giant robot make Scrapper go squish, continues with rampage.  Under the comic-book logic that the game properly operates under, the Scrapper survives the Kronos ambush long enough for people to come help defeat it.

 

And power is a motivator.  Money is power but you'll never get enough just by robbing banks, and even if you could leveraging it into power is an entirely different skillset than building an army of killer robots and siccing them on anybody who opposes you.  Also, boring.  This isn't City of Hedge Fund Managers.  You amass power with killer robots and doom rays and the heads of your enemies on pikes because it's COOL, and who cares if people try to take you down, you've taken out everyone who stood in the way of your rise to power, you'll take them out too. 

 

As for watching the world burn, you  might be taking that a little bit too literally, maybe?  Plenty of villains with that motivation in comics.  Some are just "lol crazeeee" like the Joker, but others have motives.  Revenge.  Tearing down the old world because they think a better one will rise in its place.  Destroy all humans because humans suck.  Be the Immortan Joe who holds the last of the toilet paper and twinkies.

 

I suppose you'll just play the mercenary contacts because they're the only ones that "make sense," but I want my doom ray, tyvm.

[Alchemystic]

I know this was something of a controversial suggestion a while back, but...

I had this idea to turn Striga Isle into a villain zone (and put the contacts/missions that were present there over in Talos, or over in Boomtown to increase the narrative drive over there too).

This achieves two objectives that the original development team were looking into:

- Revamping hazard zones with new purpose

- The expansion of villain content/narrative

 

It also reduces workload compared to creating an entire new zone:

- Striga Isle would simply be renamed to 'Echo: Striga Isle' accessible only from ouroboros, no other changes required.
- The new version of Striga Isle would be a direct copy of the old one, which is as simple as creating another instance of the same map (RWZ1, RWZ2, so on)
- There would be no need for implementing new mob spawns, but mobs could be tweaked to contain more War Walkers and UPA troops.
- Contacts would have to be moved, but considering that already happened with Galaxy and Dark Astoria, it isn't new, nor is it impossible.

Considering that Striga Isle isn't actually part of Paragon City, and the story behind it being an operational base for The Council (and later the coalition with the UPA), it has potential to be reworked into a new villain zone. I imagine that a few arcs could be created in order for villains to explore the story behind the Council, 5th Column and UPA, and perhaps how the council is introducing praetorian technology and manpower to their ranks.

If an Echo version of Striga Isle were to be created, there wouldn't really be anything lost hero-side either. Missions that take place in Striga still make sense, since it portrays heroes being deployed to the area to handle villain activity, but it would mean that any mission with doors in Striga would have to be moved to a boat, helicopter or submarine in Talos or Independence port (the previous access points). As for any 'Defeat All' missions that occur in Striga, they would likely be moved to another zone like Boomtown.
 

It's a wacky idea that would mean people would have to adapt to a change, but change is good, especially when it concerns both hazard zones AND improving villain content.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Tyrannical