Weekly Discussion 55: Power Pools!

[Nemu]

Reducing the impact of hasten would not really increase build diversity all that much, the people that want it will still take it even if the benefit is reduced.

 

You need competitors to these tried and true picks that truly challenge the builder's build philosophy. One can argue that damage ATs don't need hasten as much as some support ATs that feature powers on long cooldowns, so as a competitor to hasten why not have pool powers that amplify the effect of those powers, double the duration, increase the mag, etc, so that now players have to make a choice between making those powers recharge faster vs making them more potent.

 

Same with the overwhelming preference for min/maxing for defense softcap. What if there was a competitor to challenge it's dominance such as absorb? I think those astute enough can already see how powerful that mechanic can be on electric affinity with it's fast recharging absorb shield, especially when layered with decent resists.

 

Choices, not nerfs or buffs, contribute to build diversity.

[Troo]

Just now, Nemu said:

You need competitors to these tried and true picks that truly challenge the builder's build philosophy.

Devil's advocate could be reducing dependency on those picks.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Zepp said:

If you read my proposal on the first page, I actually suggested making Hasten an auto inherent.

My point was that you can't reduce the number below 70% (or count IO bonuses) without it hitting Control and Support disproportionately. Hasten is not necessary or even optimal in most builds. However, in many control sets and most support sets it is crucial. As such, any reduction below 70% would require changes to dozens or hundreds of individual powers. And changes require time, testing, more time, more testing, even more time, balance testing, again, more time, and finally implementation.

I do not think that anything needs to be done to Hasten unless you make it an inherent auto power to free up a slot in Speed to bring it in line with the other movement sets.

When I broke down what powers cannot be "perma'd" naturally, a solid 60% of all the powers were control powers. It may be worth eyeballing the powers themselves alongside any hasten changes if considered.

 

 

As for other ideas, I like the thought of adding a Stealth Strike to concealment, or other such buffs. Using pool powers to "mimic" other AT's inherent (doubling up on a like AT or adding another X factor to your own) could be really fun!

Edited June 17, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

Fill the empty slot with Assemble the Team.

Why waste a power pick on something you can get from the P2W vendor? 

[Heraclea]

22 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

When I broke down what powers cannot be "perma'd" naturally, a solid 60% of all the powers were control powers. It may be worth eyeballing the powers themselves alongside any hasten changes if considered.

IIRC, at some time fairly early in the game, control powers got a massive nerf in the form of having their recharge times doubled or close to doubled.  I remember many people being upset about it.  Not sure what issue or when it was, but it may have been related to the introduction of PvP.    Excessive recharge has always been one reason why I have shied away from that kind of character.  Even if most of the late-added content seems to be made to favor them and shut out melee from a role. 

[Six-Six]

I wish some of the travel powers (specifically Speed of Sound and Combat Jumping) would work together with ninja run/beast run.

[DoctorDitko]

2 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Why waste a power pick on something you can get from the P2W vendor? 

Because the P2W power works only every half an hour.

 

If you change builds? Wait half an hour. Use it before everyone has joined the team, or change the mish? Half an hour.

 

I'd presume the TP power pick would be less like the P2W and more like the Destiny Incandescence Incarnate power (2 minute cooldown, IIRC), without the side effects of healing, disorienting, or blowing stuff up. There's a place for it.

Edited June 17, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[UpandAtom]

I've always thought it was odd Presence is geared pretty exclusively to manipulating enemies, but never did anything for your pals. So I thought of something! Maybe we could combine the single Fear power and the AoE Fear into a single Terrify: Mag 2 AOE, with a xy% chance to proc an addition 1 Mag fear.  Use the emptied-spot to add in a team-beneficial toggle, or clicky. "Encourage Others" or "Dependable Presence"--something suitably presence-y sounding--to grant a buff that Leadership doesn't (so not def, acc or damage) but maybe a Recovery boost to teammates? A Status Resistance boost? Not Status Prot, since that could end up nullifying all enemy CC powers with a lot of Dependable squishies.

If we're fishing for *NEW* pools I think it would be funny to have a pool that summons disposable back-up. You know, like those billboards across the rogue isles marketing rent-a-thugs? Summon a short-duration Bruiser, Brawler, Blaster or Band-Aider!

[Bastille Boy]

On just about every character I've built on Homecoming since last fall, I use only four pools for my PVE builds: Fighting, Leadership, Leaping, and Speed. I always want Boxing, Tough, Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, and Hasten. I almost always want Weave. The only real choices I'm making are whether to add additional powers from Leadership and whether to take Super Jump, Super Speed, or both.

 

Not a recommendation, just a data point.

[xl8]

On 6/15/2020 at 3:33 AM, Zepp said:

Hasten: Moved to inherent, no longer in this pool.

 

On 6/15/2020 at 5:10 AM, Peacemoon said:

Speaking of Tough/Weave I would actually put them in the Fitness pool and make them baseline.

1. The fitness pool was made inherent because ppl were forced to take it. This is not the case for either of these pools.
2. NPCs are the only thing that should receive a buff in this game. Everything is a cake walk at present. +4/8s, no problem.

More variety, less restriction, yes. Making the game easier and diluting archetypes, no.

Although, restricting how many T4 powers you can take while not restricting the actual number of pools, could help balance needs with wants.

[xl8]

New Power Pool: Chance

1. "Dodger" -10% ToHit aura ally buff affecting 8 targets max. Duration 30s.

2. "Coin Toss" 50% chance to boost all powers by 25%, 50% chance to reduce all powers by 25%. Duration 10s.

3. "Karma" Intangibility, plus all enemy powers reflected for 30s.

4. "God Of Gamblers" Debuff immunity. Auto self.

[drbuzzard2]

6 hours ago, xl8 said:

New Power Pool: Chance

 

2. "Coin Toss" 50% chance to boost all powers by 25%, 50% chance to reduce all powers by 25%. Duration 10s.

 

So you somehow imagine people will take a power which on net balance doesn't do anything at all? The tier 4 is worth chasing, but I guarantee nobody in their right mind would pick the second one there.

[drbuzzard2]

16 hours ago, Heraclea said:

IIRC, at some time fairly early in the game, control powers got a massive nerf in the form of having their recharge times doubled or close to doubled.  I remember many people being upset about it.  Not sure what issue or when it was, but it may have been related to the introduction of PvP.    Excessive recharge has always been one reason why I have shied away from that kind of character.  Even if most of the late-added content seems to be made to favor them and shut out melee from a role. 

 

Actually you don't recall correctly. The nerf had nothing to do with pvp, and was only to mass hold powers. Before the nerfs controllers could basically render groups into statues and stack it easily making every encounter pretty laughable (required slotting and good accuracy, but it did work). I'm generally not the biggest fan of nerfs, but this one wasn't all too bad since before it a well slotted controller had almost no risk at all.

[xl8]

10 minutes ago, drbuzzard2 said:

So you somehow imagine people will take a power which on net balance doesn't do anything at all?

I do. Mostly RP, but staying true to concept.

[RogerWilco]

On 6/15/2020 at 1:39 AM, ImpousVileTerror said:

A "Pistol" Pool is something I could certainly get behind.  Nothing flashy.  Just straight to the point.  Nice idea @Crashen.

Yes. I like most of his ideas, but especially this one.

 

I like the power pools for giving the option to make character concepts that would otherwise be hard or impossible because of how AT's are structured.

Melee guy with a gun?

Archer gal that likes kicking people?

 

I want to use Force of Will attacks on a Katana wielder, to create the feel of a Force user.

 

I would say not to limit the visual options compared to the standard AT pistol options, especially because of the role-playing aspect.

For that reason, having melee weapons in Fighting or something similar, would also be cool. Might be a pain in the costume designer though.

[RogerWilco]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:01 PM, Force Redux said:

TELEPORTATION POOL

Suffers from being clunky. Let's try to change that.

...

Teleport - honestly, one of the few ways that Champions Online actually beat out CoH was in the implementation of their Teleport. The CoH version is clunky, difficult to use in small or confined maps, where you can't click, and it is anything but Nightcrawler-esque, with no finessse. The power should be overhauled:

 

Teleport

Cast 1.0 seconds

Recharge: 12. 0 seconds

Duration: 6.0 seconds

Endurance: 13 seconds

 

Effects: Grant Flight 6.0 seconds with high flight control., followed by 4 more seconds of no-control flight (when you reappear). Grant Phase Shift 6.0 seconds. Grant Invisibility 6.0 seconds. Affect Only Self 6.0 seconds. Invulnerability 6.0 seconds. What happens? You click and get six seconds to fly/move wherever you want, unseen, unaffected (because this simulates you being 'in between'), then you reappear and have another 4 more seconds of hover-ish flight so you can decide where to go next if in mid-air. Unlike current Teleport, you are not clicking every 3 seconds or so, so it reduces click fatigue on long distance map travel. You also can maneuver in tight spaces to without mouse clicking on targets, and thus can navigate things like Council caves.

I agree that the current Teleport feels clunky, but I would not want to make it into another fly power.

 

Maybe a reverse of what Mystic Flight does. Where Teleport also gives you a form of Hover, like Mystic Flight gives you Translocation.

I like that CoH Teleport is an "actual" teleport.

 

If I think about my characters that have Teleport, it's mostly the frantic clicking before gravity takes over, and the high endurance usage that I find limiting on the power. This would solve the first problem. I think Teleport's endurance usage also needs some love, as I can't even cross Mery on a low level character before I run out of endurance, while the other travel powers have no such problem.

 

The team teleport does seem useless.

[RogerWilco]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:02 PM, JW74 said:

I suggest granting an initial travel power at level one or character creation.  While familiarizing yourself with the city maps is great and highly encouraged, moving around the maps while running from mission to mission is time consuming and most players know if they want to be a jumper, speedster, flier, or TP'er at the time or character creation.  The initial sprint, slide, ninja, and beast are helpful but do not compare.

To build on that point:  travel speeds should be the same speeds across the board: MPH/MPH for jump, super speed, flight, and teleport should be the same unslotted for each character

I think that it's actually quite good that people are not confronted with pool powers at level 1. I had two friends who joined the game for the first time last month, and things were confusing enough. The starter zones are small.

 

I also believe that the original developers did not give all the travel powers the same max speeds on purpose, as some are "easier" than others. Speedsters often need to take a detour and should be the fastest. Flight is the easiest and should be the slowest. Superjump and Teleport are somewhere in between.

I don't know the numbers of Sorcery, Experimentation and Force of Will well enough to know if they are balanced against those, they feel more powerful and versatile, although not by a lot.

Edited June 18, 2020 by RogerWilco

[Force Redux]

10 minutes ago, RogerWilco said:

I agree that the current Teleport feels clunky, but I would not want to make it into another fly power.

 

Maybe a reverse of what Mystic Flight does. Where Teleport also gives you a form of Hover, like Mystic Flight gives you Translocation.

I like that CoH Teleport is an "actual" teleport.

 

If I think about my characters that have Teleport, it's mostly the frantic clicking before gravity takes over, and the high endurance usage that I find limiting on the power. This would solve the first problem. I think Teleport's endurance usage also needs some love, as I can't even cross Mery on a low level character before I run out of endurance, while the other travel powers have no such problem.

 

The team teleport does seem useless.

Duly noted, and in retrospect I agree with you. I like your suggestion. 

[Rathulfr]

22 hours ago, Zepp said:

If you read my proposal on the first page, I actually suggested making Hasten an auto inherent.

My point was that you can't reduce the number below 70% (or count IO bonuses) without it hitting Control and Support disproportionately. Hasten is not necessary or even optimal in most builds. However, in many control sets and most support sets it is crucial. As such, any reduction below 70% would require changes to dozens or hundreds of individual powers. And changes require time, testing, more time, more testing, even more time, balance testing, again, more time, and finally implementation.

I do not think that anything needs to be done to Hasten unless you make it an inherent auto power to free up a slot in Speed to bring it in line with the other movement sets.

I think that making Hasten an auto inherent is too much.  As you point out, "Hasten is not necessary or even optimal in most builds."  Therefore, making it an auto inherent is either unnecessary or sub-optimal.

 

I think Hasten needs to be a player choice, if even only for those builds where it's necessary or optimal, as you point out.  However, the biggest complaints about Hasten need to be addressed, which are:

 

1. It's too crucial to a significant number of builds, such as those for Control and Support.  Why is that the case?  Perhaps we need to consider adjusting the Control and Support sets for improved recharge, or change their dynamics to not require the amount of recharge provided by Hasten.  The problem here is that this would require a lot more time and testing than simply tweaking Hasten.
2. Most folks configure Hasten to auto cast, or construct complicated binds to routinely refresh it, or drive their builds towards "perma-Hasten".  This means that Hasten is most often used or treated like a toggle.  We sacrifice our one and only green ring of auto cast to the god of Hasten, when we would often rather use that auto cast for another power, such as mez protection or Domination.  Let's stop pretending that Hasten is anything other than a toggle, and make it a toggle.  We can stop messing about with complex binds and stop chasing perma-Hasten bonuses.
3. Hasten, like Combat Jumping and Hover, was once a prerequisite pick for a travel power.  Why shouldn't it work like the other prerequisite powers, which are also defense toggles?  Why not just make it like the other formerly prerequisite travel powers, for the sake of simplicity and consistency?  This would also allow for more players to avoid choosing between taking Hasten and losing a defense toggle like Combat Jumping or Hover.  Sure, this means that some builds would gain a new defense toggle for nothing, but it also frees up a power pick for something else that might better suit another player's theme/concept, without sacrificing recharge or defense.  I'd say that's the lesser of two evils.

So if +70% recharge (unenhanced) is the minimum bar here, then the numbers would change as follows:

 

• Nerf Hasten to +55% recharge +
• Buff Swift to add +15% recharge =
• +70% total base recharge.

We still get the +70% number you're looking for, plus the benefit of a toggle to provide perma-Hasten for everyone who wants/needs it, and liberate our single auto cast for another power, instead.

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Zepp]

4 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I think that making Hasten an auto inherent is too much.  As you point out, "Hasten is not necessary or even optimal in most builds."  Therefore, making it an auto inherent is either unnecessary or sub-optimal.

 

I think Hasten needs to be a player choice, if even only for those builds where it's necessary or optimal, as you point out.  However, the biggest complaints about Hasten need to be addressed, which are:

 

1. It's too crucial to a significant number of builds, such as those for Control and Support.  Why is that the case?  Perhaps we need to consider adjusting the Control and Support sets for improved recharge, or change their dynamics to not require the amount of recharge provided by Hasten.  The problem here is that this would require a lot more time and testing than simply tweaking Hasten.
2. Most folks configure Hasten to auto cast, or construct complicated binds to routinely refresh it, or drive their builds towards "perma-Hasten".  This means that Hasten is most often used or treated like a toggle.  We sacrifice our one and only green ring of auto cast to the god of Hasten, when we would often rather use that auto cast for another power, such as mez protection or Domination.  Let's stop pretending that Hasten is anything other than a toggle, and make it a toggle.  We can stop messing about with complex binds and stop chasing perma-Hasten bonuses.
3. Hasten, like Combat Jumping and Hover, was once a prerequisite pick for a travel power.  Why shouldn't it work like the other prerequisite powers, which are also defense toggles?  Why not just make it like the other formerly prerequisite travel powers, for the sake of simplicity and consistency?  This would also allow for more players to avoid choosing between taking Hasten and losing a defense toggle like Combat Jumping or Hover.  Sure, this means that some builds would gain a new defense toggle for nothing, but it also frees up a power pick for something else that might better suit another player's theme/concept, without sacrificing recharge or defense.  I'd say that's the lesser of two evils.

So if +70% recharge (unenhanced) is the minimum bar here, then the numbers would change as follows:

 

• Nerf Hasten to +55% recharge +
• Buff Swift to add +15% recharge =
• +70% total base recharge.

We still get the +70% number you're looking for, plus the benefit of a toggle to provide perma-Hasten for everyone who wants/needs it, and liberate our single auto cast for another power, instead.

 

To be clear, the reason that Hasten is often sub-optimal in many (primarily DpS) builds is because it costs a power slot and often enhancement slots plus forces the use of IO +Recharge bonuses over more optimal choices. Having it as a click also makes me reluctant to take it in Dom builds (again, 122.5% required for perma-Dom, 192.5% (122.5+70) required for two-slotted perma-Hasten) because it gets messy.

Your proposal basically has a similar effect to what I was going for (although I may suggest a resist power rather than a defense power), and it would mean I would likely shift several of my builds that currently don't have Hasten to add Hasten, but sure, that sounds reasonable.

I'll be going through this thread and rewriting my PowerPool proposal as quoted in the first page to include some of these ideas.

[Heraclea]

2 hours ago, drbuzzard2 said:

 

Actually you don't recall correctly. The nerf had nothing to do with pvp, and was only to mass hold powers. Before the nerfs controllers could basically render groups into statues and stack it easily making every encounter pretty laughable (required slotting and good accuracy, but it did work). I'm generally not the biggest fan of nerfs, but this one wasn't all too bad since before it a well slotted controller had almost no risk at all.

So it wasn't PvP related.  The actual point was that control oriented characters have their bread and butter powers on extremely long cooldowns, and as such need to build for recharge first and above all.   These characters hoover up all the purple sets in my SG; they benefit from them more than the sets made for them.  Any diminishment of Hasten's effectiveness would break them and probably get them deleted, as well as crashing the demand for purples. 

[Chance Jackson]

11 hours ago, xl8 said:

New Power Pool: Chance

1. "Dodger" -10% ToHit aura ally buff affecting 8 targets max. Duration 30s.

2. "Coin Toss" 50% chance to boost all powers by 25%, 50% chance to reduce all powers by 25%. Duration 10s.

3. "Karma" Intangibility, plus all enemy powers reflected for 30s.

4. "God Of Gamblers" Debuff immunity. Auto self.

I mostly like the idea but I think coin toss should work more like "risky dice" from HxH a bad roll will kill you but non-bad rolls are all useful, making it tactical decision whether it's used or not 

[xl8]

50 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

I think coin toss should work more like "risky dice" from HxH a bad roll will kill you but non-bad rolls are all useful, making it tactical decision whether it's used or not 

There's definitely room to work with the idea. I like the dice concept, but I think a choice of 6 outcomes might make it more of a powerset. And what a powerset that would be! Sign me up now.

Also, upon reflection, the T3 wouldn't work as intangible because of mobs not targeting user, but a reflect mechanism would. Could also build a new secondary for melee and control based on the reflect principle.

[arcane]

It’s fine either way if they want to spread out the hasten buff to other powers, but I don’t think any of that buff should move to any global inherent powers like swift. In a game where basically everybody knows power creep got pretty out of hand, a blanket buff to every single character in the game is not the best solution we can come up with.

[xl8]

2 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

everybody knows power creep got pretty out of hand,

I haven't played any other servers, but has this been addressed or have NPCs received a buff on Rebirth or Thunderspy?