Talks with NCSoft take over a year?

[srmalloy]

13 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

At this point, it's moot.
None of the current server-runners OWES you your Live characters back.
ESPECIALLY if they have to break their working setups to make such a thing possible.

*sigh* That knee-jerk response could kick an eighty-yard field goal. Ohsirus commented that he remembered there being a tool to back up your character on Live, and wondered if there was a version for Homecoming. I responded with information about the old Sentinel+ program, opined that it would take some effort to make it work with Homecoming, and mused on it being possible to make a tool to read the saved files and import builds into Mids. Nothing whatsoever about restoring the saved character data back into the game, except for being able to extract costume files and use them in game. But you immediately lept on that unmentioned subject and went off on your straw-man attack.

 

For myself, writing a program to import the files into my own private server might be something worthwhile, but from the review of the files, the characters I've recreated on Homecoming are uniformly better built and have more funds available to them; importing the files into Mids would be more useful, in that it would give me a better interface to review and compare builds against what I've done on Homecoming. But you go off and play in your own little world where every mention of Sentinel+ is someone screaming that they want to be able to reload their old characters from Live.

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

Yeah, they really suffered from the bad publicity.  They totally need this deal.  /s

Now, yes. Go back and look at what their stock did right after they announced the closure of Paragon Studios and the shutdown of CoH.

[Abraxus]

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

So then why does anyone believe that any deal would ever happen?  These kinds of deals don't happen based on hopes and dreams.  

 

If NCSoft wanted high 8-figures for the rights to the IP in the past, what makes you think that a deal will ever be struck when you and others admit that the budget is miniscule?  

Because the game is out in the wild, and there really isn't much they can do about that.  So, why not explore ways to capitalize on it, if only in some small way? 

[Omega-202]

33 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Because the game is out in the wild, and there really isn't much they can do about that.  So, why not explore ways to capitalize on it, if only in some small way? 

Because its a giant liability.  

 

They would be entering into a business deal with people in possession of stolen IP, legitimizing a criminal act and setting a precedent on bad behaviour. 

 

They would also be entering a deal with a completely amateur operation with no corporate business structure and no oversight.  What happens if it turns out that someone on the HC team is caught doing some really shady and/or illegal things?  If that happened with a real business, the person is fired, the company handles the PR fallout and takes the heat.  But in this situation?  Who's IP would be smattered all over the news if shit hit the fan, especially with how rushed most reporting is these days?  

 

Is a few thousand bucks worth all of that risk?  Hell no.  

 

It also locks down the franchise IP for a period of time.  Even if its a non exclusive license, NCSoft won't revive the franchise while a third party outside of their control is involved with part of it.  Is that worth couch cushion money to them?

[Abraxus]

36 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Because its a giant liability.  

 

They would be entering into a business deal with people in possession of stolen IP, legitimizing a criminal act and setting a precedent on bad behaviour. 

 

They would also be entering a deal with a completely amateur operation with no corporate business structure and no oversight.  What happens if it turns out that someone on the HC team is caught doing some really shady and/or illegal things?  If that happened with a real business, the person is fired, the company handles the PR fallout and takes the heat.  But in this situation?  Who's IP would be smattered all over the news if shit hit the fan, especially with how rushed most reporting is these days?  

 

Is a few thousand bucks worth all of that risk?  Hell no.  

 

It also locks down the franchise IP for a period of time.  Even if its a non exclusive license, NCSoft won't revive the franchise while a third party outside of their control is involved with part of it.  Is that worth couch cushion money to them?

As I said before, for them it's more about their reputation.  They can't snuff it out, so what are their other options?  It's going to take some "outside the box" thinking, which is likely where the hang-up is.

[Omega-202]

7 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

As I said before, for them it's more about their reputation.  They can't snuff it out, so what are their other options?  It's going to take some "outside the box" thinking, which is likely where the hang-up is.

Their best option for the time being is the staus quo.  Keep pretending to engage with HC, thereby keeping their distance, avoiding any ties to the project, while at the same time not acknowledging their legitimacy.  They can argue that they are engaging in a good faith attempt to defend their IP, but avoid sending out C&Ds and playing whack-a-mole with 50 random servers popping up.  

 

Until that no longer suits their needs and they decide to kill it.  Which they absolutely can do, to a effective degree.  They won't snuff it out completely, but they can force it back underground.  

 

EDIT: I love this "outside the box thinking" stuff.  It's like all those people who start suggesting random stuff to Covid researchers.  Yeah, you have a solution that experts didn't think of and already dismissed...

Edited December 8, 2020 by Omega-202

[Dazl]

Another element to consider is how such a deal would effect other private servers for CoH and all the other abandoned titles out there? I'm playing a number of abandoned games on private servers. This does seem to be a gray area in the law. Ultimately it would be nice to have some kind of law that allows people to host such games without fear of closure. Once a company shuts down a game it should be free to host as long as it is done as non-profit. For profit efforts have a franchise system with the game IP owners.

 

Really not sure that a company's image would really be affected if they no longer host a title. Most of the private servers wouldn't be a blip on most radars. Homecoming might be an exception, and they would likely help NCSoft's image if it did anything.

[Abraxus]

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

Their best option for the time being is the staus quo.  Keep pretending to engage with HC, thereby keeping their distance, avoiding any ties to the project, while at the same time not acknowledging their legitimacy.  They can argue that they are engaging in a good faith attempt to defend their IP, but avoid sending out C&Ds and playing whack-a-mole with 50 random servers popping up.  

 

Until that no longer suits their needs and they decide to kill it.  Which they absolutely can do, to a effective degree.  They won't snuff it out completely, but they can force it back underground.  

 

EDIT: I love this "outside the box thinking" stuff.  It's like all those people who start suggesting random stuff to Covid researchers.  Yeah, you have a solution that experts didn't think of and already dismissed...

I will resist the temptation to feel like I'm being patronized, and assume good intentions here. 

 

I believe the efforts on this side at least, are earnest.  What exactly it is, or what the reception has been, or the mindset of involved NCSoft personnel, nobody knows.  But, as the past few pages have indicated, it is fertile ground for speculation.  Which is fine, so long as it isn't represented as verifiable fact, because at this point there really isn't any such thing.

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

If NCSoft wanted high 8-figures for the rights to the IP in the past, what makes you think that a deal will ever be struck when you and others admit that the budget is miniscule?

 

The legal budget available to the HC team for the purpose of negotiating a licensing or usage deal for the IP eight years after said IP was effectively killed is not even remotely related or comparable to the asking price of the IP if it were being sold outright.  These two aren't the same and whatever figure NC put on the table previously has no bearing on the talks they're currently engaged in with the HC team's legal representation.

 

And considering that the IP is essentially dead by NC's reckoning, they stand to lose nothing by agreeing to allow people to license it and potentially revive it.  They do, however, face the prospect of gaining some small increase in their revenue stream, as well as reversing some of the ill will garnered when they shuttered the servers, which may lead to more revenue, and significant press coverage portraying them in a positive manner, which represents yet another potential revenue increase.  These points have been made several times in this thread.

 

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

They would be entering into a business deal with people in possession of stolen IP, legitimizing a criminal act and setting a precedent on bad behaviour.

 

The precedent was set decades ago.  There are numerous "private" servers for various MMORPGs, some dead IPs, some still active IPs, and many of those some have been endorsed by the developers/publishers and allowed to continue.  This isn't new ground we're talking about here, it's just another day on the Internet, and the examples set by other "private" servers can be used to indicate unspoken approval of the practice in a court.  By knowingly continuing to allow these servers to operate without a license, NC is doing exactly that.  If they were really serious about retaining private ownership of the IP, they would've acted immediately and continuously, driving a stake through the heart of every resurrection effort, rather than tacitly approving of the situation with their silence.  Instead, they've permitted several Co* server groups to operate without a license for over 18 months, entered into negotiations for use and/or licensing of the IP with one of those server groups (Homecoming) and created the situation you claim will never happen, the potential for legitimizing the use of the IP.

 

Here's a thought - if you're in the legal profession, instead of telling everyone to give up and let the game die, why don't you try to contribute something useful and worthwhile?  Find some other precedents, a loophole in copyright law, something to help that might be passed on to the HC team's tiny legal staff.  Do something positive to keep this game around if you have that capability and desire to see it thrive.  All you've done so far is argue and insist that we're doomed.  Do better.

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 hours ago, Abraxus said:

Because the game is out in the wild, and there really isn't much they can do about that.  So, why not explore ways to capitalize on it, if only in some small way? 

Because, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the Korean culture has this thing where if you give up on something and then it succeeds later then you lose face. Basically you look stupid because he/she/it succeeded with someone else, but not with you. Meaning you, not it, was the real problem. So if CoH, which NCSoft tried to kill, ends up doing well now then they look stupid.

 

You may think that this seems silly, but it's their culture, CEOs have lost their jobs and even their lives over this.

 

This is why I believe that the situation that we're currently in is the best that we can hope for. NCSoft ignores us instead of sending a C&D, the homecoming team's official stance is "we're in talks", and we get to keep playing City of Heroes. Anything that upsets that applecart could end up being really bad for us. So, until that happens, I'll just keep playing CoH and not worrying about it.

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Because, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the Korean culture has this thing where if you give up on something and then it succeeds later then you lose face. Basically you look stupid because he/she/it succeeded with someone else, but not with you. Meaning you, not it, was the real problem. So if CoH, which NCSoft tried to kill, ends up doing well now then they look stupid.

 

You may think that this seems silly, but it's their culture, CEOs have lost their jobs and even their lives over this.

 

Then the key to success is to spin Co*'s resurrection as NC's decision and effort.  Face saved, management alive, corporate happy, gamers happy.

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

But you immediately lept on that unmentioned subject and went off on your straw-man attack.

Trust me.  I'm too fat to "leap" on anything.

Just heading the question off at the pass.  Hence my explanation of the program's background.

[Bionic_Flea]

What are the known facts:

1.  CoH was an MMO beloved by thousands but was closed by NCSoft.

2.  Attempts to buy the IP immediately after closing by several parties and groups all failed.

3.  The game code was kept alive secretly for years and then released into the wild.

4.  There are now several large public servers and an unknown number of private servers where thousands of players love to play.

5.  HC, one of the public servers, is in NDA covered talks with NCSoft.

6.  . . . .

 

Are there any other facts worth adding or is everything else just color commentary and speculation? 

 

The negotiations may result in a deal or they may not.  Or perhaps the goal is to have a perpetual negotiation so that both parties can claim legitimacy and safe face.  Who knows?

Edited December 8, 2020 by Bionic_Flea

[golstat2003]

55 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Because, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the Korean culture has this thing where if you give up on something and then it succeeds later then you lose face. Basically you look stupid because he/she/it succeeded with someone else, but not with you. Meaning you, not it, was the real problem. So if CoH, which NCSoft tried to kill, ends up doing well now then they look stupid.

 

You may think that this seems silly, but it's their culture, CEOs have lost their jobs and even their lives over this.

 

This is why I believe that the situation that we're currently in is the best that we can hope for. NCSoft ignores us instead of sending a C&D, the homecoming team's official stance is "we're in talks", and we get to keep playing City of Heroes. Anything that upsets that applecart could end up being really bad for us. So, until that happens, I'll just keep playing CoH and not worrying about it.

A yup. If they negotiate something, awesome. If they don't, well I got to play this game again for over a year+ versus never ever being able to play it ever again. 

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

What are the known facts:

1.  CoH was an MMO beloved by thousands but was closed by NCSoft.

2.  Attempts to buy the IP immediately after closing by several parties and groups all failed.

3.  The game code was kept alive secretly for years and then released into the wild.

4.  There are now several large public servers and an unknown number of private servers where thousands of players love to play.

5.  HC, one of the public servers, is in NDA covered talks with NCSoft.

6.  . . . .

 

Are there any other facts worth adding or is everything else just color commentary and speculation? 

 

The negotiations may result in a deal or they may not.  Or perhaps the goal is to have a perpetual negotiation so that both parties can claim legitimacy and safe face.  Who knows?

Pretty much the bolded. Anything else anyone else is saying is just utter bu$%#%^. The only parties that know are the ones IN the actual negotiations. Doesn't matter if you've been a lawyer for 50 or 60 years.

 

They're gonna take as long as they take. Nothing for any of us to do but just enjoy the game and whatever updates HC releases.

Edited December 8, 2020 by golstat2003

[Ironblade]

16 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

I'll leave it there though because Ironblade doesn't want discussion to happen on a forum.  If its not concrete facts, we're all supposed to shut up and defer to their optimistic outlook based in fantasy land.  

Right, because I'm the boss of the forums.  Interesting that all of your posts got exactly one confused face emoji, while the people making opposing arguments are getting the likes.

Just saying.  But never mind, since you were going to leave it there and not keep at it, right?

 

15 hours ago, Budo said:

THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS THREAD IS FOR!

 

We must yell about what may happen and yell at other people for knowing things that we know are not true and then tell them that they are stupid, because clearly we are smarter because we are lawyers, or are married to lawyers or saw a lawyer on TV we spelled the word lawyer on a Scrabble game once.

 

Duh. 

One condition.  Do we get to throw things?  Yelling is so much more fun when you're also throwing things.

[Rishidian]

But speculation is SO much fun!

 

We all have our opinions and hopes - and this is a place to air them.  So, please continue to discuss.  Some of us are interested in reading what you have to say.  (My Sarcasm toggle has NOT been activated yet)

 

By the way, you are encouraged to throw things - tantrums included.  And yell to your heart's content - just keep the civility flowing from your fingers.

[CrudeVileTerror]

I mean, technically #5 isn't accurate.

I'd rephrase as thus:   "It's been stated that the Homecoming Team is in negotiations with ncsoft, with an NDA cited as the reason said negotiations haven't been confirmed -by- ncsoft."

 

Not trying to stir up shit, mind you.   I just think it's important to reiterate that, at least as far as I'm aware, ncsoft hasn't said JACK about negotiations since the whistle was blown April of last year.

If they -have- acknowledged these things, I would definitely be happy to see it!

[Zep]

22 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

I know this is 6 months old.  But I need to address this.
Without looking at the code yourself, you have NO WAY of knowing this.
You have no way of even knowing if such an engine rewrite is even POSSIBLE.

Now, OGL4 should (SHOULD) be fine since all the functions are backward compatible.
As to whether it'll be "faster"?

100% SPECULATION

Let us be clear, you dont know what I know, what I have done (eg look at code) and it would be best if you didnt speculate.

 

If you want to disagree with me, great, I fully support open discussion, provided everyone can be polite and refrain from what comes off as attacking.

[Blackmoor]

4 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

the goal is to have a perpetual negotiation so that both parties can claim legitimacy and safe face. 

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this is the case.

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I mean, technically #5 isn't accurate.

I'd rephrase as thus:   "It's been stated that the Homecoming Team is in negotiations with ncsoft, with an NDA cited as the reason said negotiations haven't been confirmed -by- ncsoft."

 

Not trying to stir up shit, mind you.   I just think it's important to reiterate that, at least as far as I'm aware, ncsoft hasn't said JACK about negotiations since the whistle was blown April of last year.

If they -have- acknowledged these things, I would definitely be happy to see it!

"5.  HC, one of the public servers, is in NDA covered talks with NCSoft. " 

 

You can rephrase it if you wish, but the statement is a fact because HC said they were in NDA covered negotiations.  Neither NCSoft, nor anyone else, has repudiated or negated that assertion to my knowledge.  I have no reason to disbelieve their assertion and several reasons to believe them.

 

[UltraAlt]

The longer the better.

I hope NCSoft just doesn't care what is going on with City of Heroes and leaves us alone.

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, Zep said:

Let us be clear, you dont know what I know, what I have done (eg look at code) and it would be best if you didnt speculate.

 

If you want to disagree with me, great, I fully support open discussion, provided everyone can be polite and refrain from what comes off as attacking.

Oh boy.  We're playing "Who's the bigger expert!"

PASS!

Let me say this again.

No.  You don't get to claim "special secret knowledge".

YOU are the one making the claims.  It's upon YOU to support your supposition.

Standard code rant.  Unless you've got intimate knowledge of the code and can produce evidence to support your claim that, you're simply running off at the mouth Zep.

Second, claims of "it'll be FASTER".

On WHAT specifically?

An old Dual Core Pentium M with 2 gigs of RAM, a GeForce 8400, running XP?

A 3.5 Ghz Ryzen 5 with 16 gigs of RAM, an RTX 3080, running Windows 10??

Please!  Enlighten us oh sage!

Edited December 9, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Troo]

[kiramon]

Here’s a topic needing to be locked If I ever saw one 

Edited December 9, 2020 by kiramon