Could self flagging for pvp in any zone be a thing?

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

There is not a whole lot of skill or risk involved when 2 stalkers double AS a controller already in the middle of a fight with a group of NPCs.

To be fair, there is still some albeit very limited risk there. 

[Glacier Peak]

8 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

 

There is not a whole lot of skill or risk involved when 2 stalkers double AS a controller already in the middle of a fight with a group of NPCs.

Would you consider that PvP?

That happened to me, multiple times, when the game was live.

 

Same amount of risk as when 2 Player Characters trade defeats in the arena or a PvP zone.

Both would be considered PvP.

Both would also be considered cheap victories as well.

Two players versus a player = PvP

[Xanatos]

2 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

2 stalkers double AS a controller already in the middle of a fight.

 

That happened to me, multiple times.

 

lmfao

[Dazl]

Wow @ZacKing, if people in the PvP zones are willing to not attack someone because they asked nicely to be left alone, then that is the most Carebear PvP I've ever seen in any game with it.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Crimsonpyre said:

Wow @ZacKing, if people in the PvP zones are willing to not attack someone because they asked nicely to be left alone, then that is the most Carebear PvP I've ever seen in any game with it.

Honestly, when I see others using disrespectful terms like "carebear" to describe others who show a level of common courtesy toward a fellow gamer, I am reminded why PVP zones are dead most all of the time. 

[ZacKing]

6 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

Wow @ZacKing, if people in the PvP zones are willing to not attack someone because they asked nicely to be left alone, then that is the most Carebear PvP I've ever seen in any game with it.

yeah it's called not being an ass dude. There's a lot of people out there who will respect others who'd prefer to be left alone when badging or hunting temps.  It's what decent humans do.  Try it sometime.

[Dazl]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Honestly, when I see others using disrespectful terms like "carebear" to describe others who show a level of common courtesy toward a fellow gamer, I am reminded why PVP zones are dead most all of the time. 

You must not have played may PvP games. They are all cutthroat. PvP isn't dead here because of asshat PvP'er abusing other players, it's never been popular becuase it wasn't designed around it and most COH players have always been PvE centric.

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

You must not have played may PvP games. They are all cutthroat. PvP isn't dead here because of asshat PvP'er abusing other players, it's never been popular becuase it wasn't designed around it and most COH players have always been PvE centric.

Actually I have played a few PVP centric games in my time.  There are decent players in all of them.  And yes, PVP is mostly dead here in part due to the players themselves.  It is not the sole reason for it, but a reason nonetheless.

[Dazl]

7 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

yeah it's called not being an ass dude. There's a lot of people out there who will respect others who'd prefer to be left alone when badging or hunting temps.  It's what decent humans do.  Try it sometime.

Little touchy? I'm just giving you reality. I don't PvP in this game, so I've never encountered this sweet kind of PvP.

[macskull]

3 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

 

There is not a whole lot of skill or risk involved when 2 stalkers double AS a controller already in the middle of a fight with a group of NPCs.

Would you consider that PvP?

That happened to me, multiple times, when the game was live.

 

Same amount of risk as when 2 Player Characters trade defeats in the arena or a PvP zone.

Both would be considered PvP.

Both would also be considered cheap victories as well.

I would somewhat agree with your first bit here. There's not necessarily much skill involved on the part of those Stalkers but that's because you're making yourself such an easy target that there doesn't need to be any skill on their part. Complaining about Stalkers was extremely common both in broadcast and the forums when the game was live but a decent player knew that the best counter to 90% of the Stalker players out there was (and still is) to be continuously moving in all three dimensions. Stalkers can't AS what they can't hit and only the best Stalker players could reliably AS moving targets.

 

That being said, it is players attacking other players, which is by definition PvP. Is it high-quality PvP? No, but that's not the point.

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Actually I have played a few PVP centric games in my time.  There are decent players in all of them.  And yes, PVP is mostly dead here in part due to the players themselves.  It is not the sole reason for it, but a reason nonetheless.

I don't think PvP is dead here. I'd say as far as high-end PvP goes it's been more active more continuously than it was back on live at any point after I16 or so, and that's with an overall playerbase that's a fraction of the live population. This game's PvP population took a huge hit when the I13 changes were rolled out against the protests of nearly every PvPer and it never really recovered but that's a different story. It's also worth pointing out that the types of players that tend to exhibit the behavior we're discussing are also pretty bottom-of-the-barrel PvPers who aren't taken seriously by the PvP community at large.

[ZacKing]

11 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

Little touchy? I'm just giving you reality. I don't PvP in this game, so I've never encountered this sweet kind of PvP.

Yeah man reality is there's decent players who are respectful of others in all kinds of PVP games. 

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

I don't think PvP is dead here. I'd say as far as high-end PvP goes it's been more active more continuously than it was back on live at any point after I16 or so, and that's with an overall playerbase that's a fraction of the live population. This game's PvP population took a huge hit when the I13 changes were rolled out against the protests of nearly every PvPer and it never really recovered but that's a different story. It's also worth pointing out that the types of players that tend to exhibit the behavior we're discussing are also pretty bottom-of-the-barrel PvPers who aren't taken seriously by the PvP community at large.

I agree with you.  You will note I did not say it was dead, I said it was mostly dead.  ☺️

 

[Lines]

PvPing doesn't make you a buttface. PvPing in a PvP zone certainly doesn't make you a buttface.

 

It's possible to be a PvPer and also be a buttface. It's possible to be a buttface through the medium of PvP.

 

But I've not seen that ever in CoH.

[Oubliette_Red]

54 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Honestly, when I see others using disrespectful terms like "carebear" to describe others who show a level of common courtesy toward a fellow gamer, I am reminded why PVP zones are dead most all of the time. 

The term "carebear" isn't disrespectful in itself, it was generally used in gaming for players that were helpful towards their fellow players. Taxibots were carebears.

 

When used to describe others as if it were a negative, I usually find the person doing so to be a posterior head-adornment.

 

Courtesy should be more common that it currently is.

 

 

Regarding opt-PvP in any zone, not sure it would be in the spirit of the game to see heroes battling each other in the street of Paragon.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Oubliette_Red

[Xanatos]

For a community that claims to hate PVP, you sure do a lot of it on the forums.

[EmmySky]

1 hour ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Regarding opt-PvP in any zone, not sure it would be in the spirit of the game to see heroes battling each other in the street of Paragon.

 

I said I am saving this citizen from the purse-snatcher so beat feet!

 

Muahahaha. 😝

Edited July 13, 2020 by EmmySky

[Twisted Toon]

47 minutes ago, macskull said:

 

That being said, it is players attacking other players, which is by definition PvP. Is it high-quality PvP? No, but that's not the point.

 

That was the point of my post.

 

I was a participant, admittedly unwilling, in PvP.

I thought that it was a cheap shot on their part.

I didn't complain, I just left the zone and did something else for a while and came back later.

 

As for the always moving part, you do realize that when you attack, it locks you in place for a period of time.

Also, there is some leeway on the distance the target moves after a melee attack is activated. Even Assassin Strike.

Decent Stalkers can leverage that to their advantage. They don't even have to be great at it.

 

Anyway, enter a PvP zone and expect to be participating in PvP. Whether you want to or not.

That way, when you manage to not get ambushed, or attacked at all, it's a pleasant surprise.

1 hour ago, Xanatos said:

 

lmfao

Glad you found that enjoyable. 😉

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Twisted Toon said:

As for the always moving part, you do realize that when you attack, it locks you in place for a period of time.

Also, there is some leeway on the distance the target moves after a melee attack is activated. Even Assassin Strike.

Decent Stalkers can leverage that to their advantage. They don't even have to be great at it.

I know all these things but what you're overlooking is that unlike every other melee attack, Assassin's Strike is interruptible. I can't queue it up and then have it go off as soon as I'm in range. I either have to find a target that is moving predictably enough (or not at all) and get the AS off then, or I have to be able to figure out where and when someone is going to land and be waiting at the exact right spot and moment. You'd be surprised at the number of zone Stalker players that can't even get an AS off on a moving target when the target is only moving in two dimensions, let alone three. Part of dealing with that is being mindful about the attacks you're using and where you're using them so you don't predictably plant (or use one of the several methods available to not plant at all).

[GastlyGibus]

10 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah see here's where you're wrong man.  Going into a PVP zone isn't a license to be a complete douchebag and treat other players like shit or to be treated without respect.  There's no harm in backing off another player if they're badging or getting temps after they've asked nicely to be left alone.  It's called common human courtesy and just like people don't like to be harassed by the slap emote used on their toons ass, people don't like having to deal with douches killing them when they're just badging.  I do this all the time in RV man.  someone asks to be left alone I'll leave them alone or even offer to help them for a bit.  Most of the PVP people I see in zone are the same, but there are a few complete assholes who get off on griefing others who pose no challenge to them.   they know they're pissing off people and they're doing it just to piss them off.  Has nothing to do with competition or skill.

No, I'm not wrong. It's a player versus player zone. Literally the entire reason for the zone's existence is to fight and kill other players. Going into the zone and expecting people to not attack you is like signing up for a paintball match and getting upset because people are shooting at you. It's part of the zone. It is literally designed to be that way. It isn't "griefing" to use a zone in exactly the way it was intended.

You go inside of the zone. The game warns you multiple times that you can and will be attacked by other players. Continuing to play in the zone after the 30 second countdown is you consenting to being attacked. There is no argument here. You're getting upset because people are using the zone for exactly its intended purpose, i.e., to attack other players.

10 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah and ask yourself why those zones are dead.  You can thank the handful of asshats who ruin it for everyone else.  it's a shame too because those zones can be fun. 

.... People just love to brag about their epeen and how easy the game is and PVP is the only real challenge.  but then they'll just gank people who have zero interest in it and that's somehow equated to "skill". 

PvP is dead in this game because the Issue 13 changes broke it almost irreparably. Assholes exist in every single PvP game in existence, and those games aren't dead because of them. League of Legends has one of the most toxic communities I've ever experienced in an online, player versus player game, and it still remains a popular game.

If you don't like getting ganked, either learn to adapt, or don't go in the zone. It really is as simple as that.

Edited July 13, 2020 by GastlyGibus

[Troo]

On 7/11/2020 at 6:44 AM, Bentley Berkeley said:

Without wanting to drag drama from another thread up, an interesting insight from a regular poster was offered in one that made me start pondering. If we as players have the right to ask others to leave us be in open pvp zones if we are just there to badge hunt, and can report them for harassment if they do not, then perhaps could the DEV team have it in their power to instead make open world pvp something we engage in via an option we toggle off and on?

 

I ponder this because from both camps Ive seen kind of the other side of the coin wants back on live and even now on HC, and that is the non pvper who wants to go into the zones to grab badges and run the mission content there, but go unbothered by pvpers, and pvpers who yearn for more open world pvp like the ability to bring a villain blue side and hunt down their nemesis. As it would all be opt in, opt out it would both expand pvp for those who want it, and remove the threat of it entirely for those who dont want it.

 

And since apparently all we need to do to opt out now is state it in zone once, and then are entitled to report attacks in the zone there after as harassment, which could lead to pvpers who dont think this banner of immunity should fly to getting into trouble.

 

So pvper and non pvper alike, what do you think, should one who asks to be left alone in an open pvp zone be fair game or is it fair game for them to report those who do attack them for harassment?

Could this be done?

• Sure

Should this be done?

• It would be better to spin up a separate Homecoming server that worked as requested.
• The amount of work and planning would be substantial to do right.
• The number of players that would use server could be too small to justify the effort.

Will this be done?

• No.

[Greycat]

8 minutes ago, GastlyGibus said:

PvP is dead in this game because the Issue 13 changes broke it almost irreparably.

This *really is* why they're dead. Pre-13, the zones - yes, even on servers other than Freedom, I was typically on Pinnacle or VIctory - were reasonably busy. After that.. well, some people gave it a shot, but part of why i13 killed it is that it became very casual unfriendly.

 

Yeah, I know, "wut, PVP casual friendly?" Yeah. Sure, you couldn't compete particularly well against PVP-focused builds and there were definitely FOTMs (just like in ... pretty much any other aspect of the game where people want to compete - best pylon times, best AV soloers, etc.) But you could bring your character in and... well.. *know what their powers would do.* And have some idea of what the enemy would be able to do.

 

Imagine if you went from Steel Canyon to Independence Port and suddenly you did less damage. Your tank's status protection turned into status resistance - meaning you would be held. You try to heal yourself furiously only to have each successive heal do less good, and so forth. You wouldn't be very fond of going to IP. Lusca would probably be hunted less, etc. That's part of what happened to PVP, at least in zone. The rest of it moved to teams in the arena, from what I could see. Yes, there were lowbie matches and such, but in general? It turned into a different game.

 

Which is a shame. Zone PVP was a lot of fun. I have some good memories there - teaching people the hard way that you can't really TP Foe an Energy brute (and chuckling at being called a stalker. It's funny how many people won't believe you.) Playing spoiler with controls when I saw someone being hunted. MA/Regen Stalker vs MA/REgen Scrapper - the fight that was never going to end. (we called it  a draw.) My Corruptor - yes, PVE build - one other and a dom holding Siren's for a good half hour until we got overwhelmed by numbers.

 

We have plenty of "I wish the game were harder" threads. These were interesting and fun challenges, seeing what my build at that time could do versus enemies who could actually (but ... didn't, as often as they should have) plan, strategize and do the unexpected.

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

No, I'm not wrong. It's a player versus player zone. Literally the entire reason for the zone's existence is to fight and kill other players.

No one is disputing that.  However, it does not mean players should not or cannot extend others some level of common courtesy.

[Black Zot]

33 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

No one is disputing that.  However, it does not mean players should not or cannot extend others some level of common courtesy.

 

Common courtesy and pvp are mutually exclusive.

[macskull]

19 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Common courtesy and pvp are mutually exclusive.

This is categorically false and this line of thinking is far more toxic than most PvPers. Some of the most knowledgeable and helpful players in this game are PvPers.

Edited July 14, 2020 by macskull

[Heraclea]

5 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

Anyway, enter a PvP zone and expect to be participating in PvP. Whether you want to or not.

That way, when you manage to not get ambushed, or attacked at all, it's a pleasant surprise.

Glad you found that enjoyable. 😉

Again, it's the story of Twixt.  Twixt was an academic's (terribly flawed) research project that was theoretically about the difference between formal rules and community norms.  He decided to test this hypothesis by playing a character who ganked other characters in PvP zones, even the ones that didn't want to PvP.  This included TPing players into police drones when that was still possible.  He got dozens of complaints and petitions that were ignored, because everything he was doing was consistent with the formal rules of PvP, which allow ganking hostile characters, whether they want to ply that or not. 

 

I avoid PvP generally.  Of the several MMOs I've played, I've never seen a single one that was fair to or had a place for non-stealthed melee characters.  We were only targets, with no way to force characters to remain in melee range, and subject to getting burst down at range by poorly resisted attacks.  In CoH in particular, toggle dropping is a terrible and annoying mechanic.  Since you don't have mez defense, only resistance, even a half second's mez you have to wait out a cooldown before turning your key defenses back on.  If we had cage-match PvP, two characters in a 6' box,  with normal PvE rules applied, that might be fun; zone PvP is not so much.  PvP builds are exotic distortions of the game.  There's something weird about the travel power Hami-O that makes them command an insane price; this is apparently for PvP and I have no idea what that's all about.  None of my builds is made for PvP, and that apparently puts me at a serious disadvantage even if I wanted to check it out. 

 

So I don't PvP much.  But I am fully aware that if I enter a PvP zone, I am at risk of being targeted and killed from afar without being able to do much about it.  That's what I signed up for when I went there.  The rules and mechanics are frustrating, but they're the rules.