Global Enhancement for Knockback to Knockdown Conversion?

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

"Self-gimp" in the sense that the overwhelming MAJORITY of characters don't need to sink 16% or more of a given power's enhancement slots to mitigate KB.  The missed opportunity could be anywhere from 0 enhancement for anything, to 53% enhanced damage from a Purple IO, to a proc, to who knows what?  Because we won't know because we're too busy slotting 16% or more of a given power's enhancement to mitigate KB.

 

Orrrrrrr.... use positioning and learn how to make use of KB, which killing it by the IO does *not* allow you to do, and there's no "slot tax" at all.

 

Yes, I know that comes off as "lrn2play," which it's not meant as. Effective knockback use *is* a learned skill, though, much like effective buffing, control, debuffing, etc. It just seems to be the one thing people would rather complain about than actually *do.*  (OK, granted. People don't do the others much, either - like throwing an AOE immob on top of an ice slick repeatedly and then complaining that ice slick - or the immob - is a wasted power and has "no synergy" with the rest of ice. Yes, I have seen that one, too.)

 

And, frankly, some melee have this sense of... entitlement, I suppose, about KB, too. I  literally ran a Yin this morning - a short team, 5 people, stalker forming it, the rest of us were doms or - well, non melee. 3 mobs in - not missions, mobs, we were maybe halfway round the first map - the stalker complains about our water/storm doing knockback and quits the team. The single-target stalker. The rest of the team? Finishes the yin, just fine, pretty much shaking our head at the "omg knockback" guy. Yep, the team has knockback (stacking KD sources *will* do that, after all - I was on an Ice/ dom.) But aside from one or two instances that were just bad timing, there was really no problem keeping enemies where we needed them - or out of where we didn't want them. We used it as... *an effective tool.* Yeah, it took a little longer (about an hour) - team of four after all, mostly in the mid-late 20s, I think one early 30 - but not horribly so, and there was absolutely *nothing* that would have kept the stalker from being able to do his job either.

 

Except his "omg I can't play on a team with knockback" without even being around long enough to get in the flow with how the rest of the team was working or even really trying to work with us. And yeah, they were effective and fun enough I'd play with any of the other three without a second's hesitation.

[Patti]

This game is really good and accessible a lot of the time for us players who can't have twitchy reaction times.  Knockback feels really bad because it's so different from other challenges we face.  Its random and disruptive and worst of all coming from people who are supposed to be our allies.  I don't go so far to say knockback should get deleted but I would really appreciate more options to make it less problematic.

The knockback from the clockwork scepter is good because it has so much wind up time and it's clear that it's going to do what it does.  Most knockback powers don't work like that.

[arcane]

It’s interesting how spoiled Overwhelming Force and Sudden Acceleration have made us on this issue. I would never make a KB heavy toon without them now, and yet I distinctly recall storm being one of my favorite sets on live before it ever existed. I used to really think about grouping things up with good hurricane maneuvering, making sure those aoe immobilizes were there to make tornado do amazing damage, etc. Now I’m just another button masher and I don’t see it as a good idea to take that progression further, personally.

[Noyjitat]

Null the gull option for all powers would be better.

*make my powers do knockback

*make my powers do knockdown (or knockup) - this option would work for those like super strength that still want knockout blow to knock targets into the air while handclap and others do knockdown.

 

also the majority of the players don't read the forums or use discord. Never have never will in any game but I see far more people annoyed by knockback than not. This is just like those few people that dont like speedboost you now have an option to make speedboost not give you speed or teleport prompt so you don't get tped, Ignore or auto accept mystic fortune etc. If you wanna be truly consistent here this should also be an option for players that want to use it.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Noyjitat

[arcane]

But doesn’t every MMO have mechanics that are annoying if not used elegantly? I just don’t see gamers everywhere constantly asking for opt-outs of every little difficulty like they do here.

[BasherBot]

Sometimes I just wanna Vos Ro Dah some unfortunate Hellion off of a ledge and watch him fall to his death XD

 

Or watch a group of enemies be forcefully scattered by an explosive tipped arrow.

 

or just have fun with an underutilized and underappreciated form of crowd control with unique applications behind it.

Edited August 1, 2020 by BasherBot

[Lines]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this, but I'm under the impression that the team is fundamentally reworking how knockback works. I could be wrong and a quick search for evidence was fruitless.

 

I believe that the april fools Freem brawl tested this: mobs flew in a random direction whereas usually knockback just propels mobs away from the caster.

 

If that is the case, peripheral ideas like this sort of ride on the back of those changes. The fundamental knockback mechanics could change so much that the KB>KD IOs become undesirable, for instance.

 

Otherwise, I'm torn. I'm all for options, but I also feel like mitigating a powerset's shortcomings is a fun part of the game that could be made too easy.

[Patti]

City of heroes ISNT any other MMO though.   It wasn't before and it most definitely is not now especially!   Don't use other MMO games to decide what's right here.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Patti said:

City of heroes ISNT any other MMO though.   It wasn't before and it most definitely is not now especially!   Don't use other MMO games to decide what's right here.

Touché on this point, even if I still think this is a bad idea 

[BasherBot]

6 minutes ago, Patti said:

City of heroes ISNT any other MMO though.   It wasn't before and it most definitely is not now especially!   Don't use other MMO games to decide what's right here.

Okay, this is starting to bug me... why are we not allowed to compared and contrast CoH to other MMOs? I don't understand why so many people get up in arms whenever someone mentions a mechanic or system similar to that from a game like WoW or Swtor... even if they are complimenting CoH for doing it better. It makes virtually no sense to me 😕 

[Patti]

Contrasting is fine.  I just don't want greedy game design for money reasons to spoil what's here and free.

[BasherBot]

1 minute ago, Patti said:

Contrasting is fine.  I just don't want greedy game design for money reasons to spoil what's here and free.

Comparing gameplay or systems isn't going to magically make the HC team want to add a cash shop >.<

[lemming]

Maybe instead of a slot, one could purchase it via the buff station in bases and the like with some salvage.  After all, you can buy extra KB via it.

Another one in p2w wouldn't be bad either.  (I'd make it way cheaper that the current prices for def buff, etc...)

[Outrider_01]

Going to have to /jranger knockback issues

You ever have to get a cat stuck in a tree ?

Spoiler

Throw enough at the tree and the feline is going to jump out.  And the dang thing was on the otherside of Perez Park!

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Outrider_01

[RageusQuitus2]

So Im not a storm expert and dont want to tell anyone else how they should play (fun fact 100% of those posting love the same game as you, surely that is a starting point for civil discourse).

 

I much prefer KD to KB.  And while KB to KD works for alot of powers, there are a rare few like the aforementioned hurricane that will still repel.  Itd be nice to have an option for repel powers.  Or stacked repel/KBs.  Im thinking specifically of say grav/storm and singularity/hurricane.  I know its been brought up in this thread already, but I would vote to keep it part of the discussion.

 

Im not asking you to stop loving MONSTER KBs or the devs take the BIG AIR option out the game.  Having this as some type of global or maybe incarnate would allow you to change up on the fly.  Customize to your team or foes as you so choose.  And allow me to tinker with my toon the way I want.

[Nafsmar]

On 7/31/2020 at 5:37 PM, SwitchFade said:

🥧

🍰

🍨

 

Anyone hungry?

Good thing I ate before reading this thread.

Also what is more superheroey than knocking something back with your power?

 

 

Spoiler alert

 

 

NOTHING.

 

Just my opinion.

[Greycat]

51 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

I much prefer KD to KB.  And while KB to KD works for alot of powers, there are a rare few like the aforementioned hurricane that will still repel.  Itd be nice to have an option for repel powers.  Or stacked repel/KBs.  Im thinking specifically of say grav/storm and singularity/hurricane.  I know its been brought up in this thread already, but I would vote to keep it part of the discussion.

As I'm recalling, Repel is a wholly different effect to KB/KD. Where something can resist KB but still be knocked down (or, more frequently seen - such as in clockwork - having no KB protection so KD turns into KB,) when Repel's resisted it just does ... nothing.

 

Conversely, if a controller (for instance) uses an AOE immob on a bunch of enemies and they're spread out - *most* immobs also have a degree of KB resistance there. But you *can* use Repel to push them together into a nice group - it's not affected by that resistance.

 

You'd basically need either one or two IOs (I'd assume two, frankly) or settings - one to turn off Repel, one to add KD to a non damage power.

[MunkiLord]

7 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Null the gull option for all powers would be better.

*make my powers do knockback

*make my powers do knockdown (or knockup) - this option would work for those like super strength that still want knockout blow to knock targets into the air while handclap and others do knockdown.

 

also the majority of the players don't read the forums or use discord. Never have never will in any game but I see far more people annoyed by knockback than not. This is just like those few people that dont like speedboost you now have an option to make speedboost not give you speed or teleport prompt so you don't get tped, Ignore or auto accept mystic fortune etc. If you wanna be truly consistent here this should also be an option for players that want to use it.

A null the gull option should lock all powers to mag 0 knockback. That is a reasonable cost for an otherwise free switch that would dramatically alter some powers and a few sets.

Edited August 2, 2020 by MunkiLord

[Myrmidon]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

Orrrrrrr.... use positioning and learn how to make use of KB, which killing it by the IO does *not* allow you to do, and there's no "slot tax" at all.

 

Yes, I know that comes off as "lrn2play," which it's not meant as. Effective knockback use *is* a learned skill, though, much like effective buffing, control, debuffing, etc. It just seems to be the one thing people would rather complain about than actually *do.*  (OK, granted. People don't do the others much, either - like throwing an AOE immob on top of an ice slick repeatedly and then complaining that ice slick - or the immob - is a wasted power and has "no synergy" with the rest of ice. Yes, I have seen that one, too.)

 

And, frankly, some melee have this sense of... entitlement, I suppose, about KB, too. I  literally ran a Yin this morning - a short team, 5 people, stalker forming it, the rest of us were doms or - well, non melee. 3 mobs in - not missions, mobs, we were maybe halfway round the first map - the stalker complains about our water/storm doing knockback and quits the team. The single-target stalker. The rest of the team? Finishes the yin, just fine, pretty much shaking our head at the "omg knockback" guy. Yep, the team has knockback (stacking KD sources *will* do that, after all - I was on an Ice/ dom.) But aside from one or two instances that were just bad timing, there was really no problem keeping enemies where we needed them - or out of where we didn't want them. We used it as... *an effective tool.* Yeah, it took a little longer (about an hour) - team of four after all, mostly in the mid-late 20s, I think one early 30 - but not horribly so, and there was absolutely *nothing* that would have kept the stalker from being able to do his job either.

 

Except his "omg I can't play on a team with knockback" without even being around long enough to get in the flow with how the rest of the team was working or even really trying to work with us. And yeah, they were effective and fun enough I'd play with any of the other three without a second's hesitation.

I possess all of the KB “skills”, I just don’t feel like using then when a single slot is set-and-forget. If other players want to knock mobs to Kingdom Come, I don’t really care as I will adapt to the situation. Just please, for the love of 8lb, 6oz baby Jesus, don’t bring a Rad without the debuff toggles...

[Noyjitat]

9 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

But doesn’t every MMO have mechanics that are annoying if not used elegantly? I just don’t see gamers everywhere constantly asking for opt-outs of every little difficulty like they do here.

I also don't see gamers in other games crying nerf as often I see here either... also people bitched about speedboost and now you have the option to opt-out of that. So if I have to tolerate you moving slowly in missions because you don't like the speed portion of speedboost then you can tolerate our request.

[Parabola]

A null the gull option of some kind sounds good to me. Something that occurred to me in a previous version of this thread was to have a 'kd until dead' option. With this selected mobs would kd unless the attack was enough to kill (arrest) them, in which case the full kb would apply. Would allow the finishing blow to send them flying in a satisfying way without any irritation prior to that.

 

People are very defensive about knockback and I understand that. But positioning is a big thing in this game, there aren't all that many tactical elements in it but positioning is definitely one. Patch powers and aoes of all kinds dictate that bunched up and static mobs are easier to defeat. For melee characters this is compounded, their aoes prefer bunched enemies and even their single target attacks need them to be right next to the enemy.

 

It can maybe be argued that people should be less sensitive about having to chase after knocked enemies when on melee characters, but you cannot argue that having to do so isn't less efficient than attacking a static enemy. The same applies to aoes and patch powers. You could say 'so we killed them a bit slower because they were blown out of the tar patch, so what', and fair enough if that isn't a problem for you but it is a problem for other people. In particular the person who carefully positioned the tar patch in the first place and has seen their contribution to the fight lessened directly by the actions of another player.

 

Knockback can of course be used without annoying anyone (to a greater or lesser extent). I consider myself pretty good with a storm for example which was one of my favourite sets back on live and barring accidents can generally herd fairly well. But unfortunately in the course of general play I see knockback used badly more often than well. And this isn't always the fault of the player; powers that do inconsistent knockback, particularly radial knockback pbaoes, are very difficult to work with.

 

The addition of the kb->kd io's was a tacit acknowledgement that knockback isn't always desirable and a global option seems to me to be the logical next step.

[cranebump]

I dunno. KB is part of the game. I think players understand this. I also think that, if we’re going to make it possible to globally change the way a set plays with a single enhancement, we might as just get rid of KB. Of course, complaints about KB are all about convenience. We don’t want to chase a flying target, or knock targets out of an area effect, or make the scrappers mad, etc, etc, etc. So, what we’re talking about here is making the game easier (even more so than it is). 

 

That said, you make KB to KD a null the gull option, almost everyone will take it. Then what do you do with the KB to KD enhancements?

 

P.S. I’m one of those people who uses turn off speed boost, mainly because I don’t like flying into mobs in cave maps (or slamming into walls). If I have to play tap...tap...with movement keys, the SB actually serves to inhibit movement and control in those situations. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by cranebump

[cranebump]

13 hours ago, Nafsmar said:

Good thing I ate before reading this thread.

Also what is more superheroey than knocking something back with your power?

 

 

Spoiler alert

 

 

NOTHING.

 

Just my opinion.

Amen.

[roleki]

21 hours ago, Greycat said:

Orrrrrrr.... use positioning and learn how to make use of KB, which killing it by the IO does *not* allow you to do, and there's no "slot tax" at all.

 

Yes, I know that comes off as "lrn2play," which it's not meant as. Effective knockback use *is* a learned skill, though, much like effective buffing, control, debuffing, etc. It just seems to be the one thing people would rather complain about than actually *do.*  (OK, granted. People don't do the others much, either - like throwing an AOE immob on top of an ice slick repeatedly and then complaining that ice slick - or the immob - is a wasted power and has "no synergy" with the rest of ice. Yes, I have seen that one, too.)

 

And, frankly, some melee have this sense of... entitlement, I suppose, about KB, too. I  literally ran a Yin this morning - a short team, 5 people, stalker forming it, the rest of us were doms or - well, non melee. 3 mobs in - not missions, mobs, we were maybe halfway round the first map - the stalker complains about our water/storm doing knockback and quits the team. The single-target stalker. The rest of the team? Finishes the yin, just fine, pretty much shaking our head at the "omg knockback" guy. Yep, the team has knockback (stacking KD sources *will* do that, after all - I was on an Ice/ dom.) But aside from one or two instances that were just bad timing, there was really no problem keeping enemies where we needed them - or out of where we didn't want them. We used it as... *an effective tool.* Yeah, it took a little longer (about an hour) - team of four after all, mostly in the mid-late 20s, I think one early 30 - but not horribly so, and there was absolutely *nothing* that would have kept the stalker from being able to do his job either.

 

Except his "omg I can't play on a team with knockback" without even being around long enough to get in the flow with how the rest of the team was working or even really trying to work with us. And yeah, they were effective and fun enough I'd play with any of the other three without a second's hesitation.

Ah yes, the old "learn 2 play!" chestnut, advertised as not and delivered in not so few of words.  

 

I shouldn't have to take hover and slot for enough speed to keep up with the pace of the team to actually make a relevant contribution, or dip into the ridiculous Sorcery pool, or resign myself to fighting outside the bowl on an MSR just so this "feature" doesn't run afoul of how everyone else is leveraging the design of the game as force multipliers.

 

People talk about power creep, why are we stopping here?  Why is KB the line in the sand?  They gave nukes to everyone, AoE heals to everyone, everyone can buy as much -Regen they want at P2W, people can get heal badges off temporary powers, but god forbid they grant players the choice of mitigating KB per character instead of per-power.

 

We can't have Storm/Energy defenders running around being USEFUL!  You greedy son of a bitch, you find another slot for Phantasm in that build if you don't want it knocking things all over the place.  Learn to play!  Power creep!  Argument for argument's sake!

 

Christ.  Nobody's saying remove KB from the game, just looking for a more elegant way to mitigate it if they choose to do so.  

[HelenCarnate]

I feel the best way as a defender to keep your team safe is to prevent mobs from attacking in the first place.  They cannot attack while they are being tossed all over the room.  So I created this character to keep you safe from harm (outside of AVs with KB protection).  Sonic Repulsion is the main key to this tactic.  You put it on the tank or any melee and they will be totally safe.  If something attacks them, they just have to run at it and it will fly away and no longer be attacking which keeps your friends safe.  In the unlikely event they do manage to get attacked, you have resist bubbles to make them take less damage.  With everyone and their brother running high defense builds, this will help fill in the gaps that many have. 

 

Now your melee friend cannot be everywhere so I also included 2 fast charging AoE attacks with 11 and 17 points of KB.

 

But Helen, what if I am on a team with all ranged characters?  Have no worries, you have whirlwind.  Granted, not as effective as Sonic Repulsion in preventing everything from attacking but will get the job done in a pinch.  Also be sure to get Ageless, Agility and Support incarnate powers as you will certainly have issues with endurance. 

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

I'll Keep You Safe: Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Sonic Resonance
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Sonic Barrier -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-EndRdx(3), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), GldArm-3defTpProc(5), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(7)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(7), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(9), FrcFdb-Rechg%(9), FrcFdb-Dmg/KB(11)
Level 2: Sonic Haven -- RctArm-EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(11), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(13), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 6: Sonic Cage -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(19)
Level 8: Energy Torrent -- FrcFdb-Dmg/KB(A), FrcFdb-Acc/KB(21), FrcFdb-Rchg/KB(21), FrcFdb-Rchg/EndRdx(23), FrcFdb-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(23), FrcFdb-Rechg%(25)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(25), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(27)
Level 12: Sonic Dispersion -- RctArm-EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(27), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(29), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29), RctArm-EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Sniper Blast -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(31), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(33)
Level 18: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(34), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 20: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(34), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(36), GssSynFr--Build%(37)
Level 22: Sonic Repulsion -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(37), EndRdx-I(37), KBDist-I(39), KBDist-I(39), KBDist-I(39)
Level 24: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Clarity -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 28: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Tough -- RctArm-EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam(40), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(40), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- FrcFdb-Dmg/KB(A), FrcFdb-Acc/KB(42), FrcFdb-Rchg/KB(42), FrcFdb-Rchg/EndRdx(42), FrcFdb-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(43), FrcFdb-Rechg%(43)
Level 38: Nova -- FrcFdb-Dmg/KB(A), FrcFdb-Acc/KB(43), FrcFdb-Rchg/KB(45), FrcFdb-Rchg/EndRdx(45), FrcFdb-Dmg/EndRdx/KB(45), FrcFdb-Rechg%(46)
Level 41: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(46), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 44: Super Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Whirlwind -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(48), KBDist-I(48), EndRdx-I(48), KBDist-I(50)
Level 49: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(50), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Mrc-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(17), PrfShf-EndMod(17)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Support Core Embodiment 
Level 1: Quick Form 
------------