Berzerkers

[Psylenz0511]

In my estimation, the team skills of players who tank have really fallen off. Too many tanks fall into a category which used to be called scrankers, tanks who want to be scrappers. There used to be topics of convesation whether  you had to take taunt on a tank with other means of drawing aggro. Not anymore.

 

I play a lot of characters and do a lot of pug groups and task forces. The tanks break off from the first couple groups and let the rest of the team clean up after them, pushing further and further into the mission regardless of what they leave behind and regardless if the mission is a kill all or not. The tanks are playing regular content like an AE mission and their teammates are the door sitters.

 

I don't think 3/4 of the tanks in game know how to keep their team moving efficiently, taunting hard targets off teammates, managing aggro, balancing the team against support, dps, and those that heal them. Teams split all too frequently, but I am talking about when a tank just goes berzerk and abandons the rest of the team. It amazes me still when a tank gets to the final boss, EB, AV and says, 'I found him' but no teleports follow up. 

 

These tanks are selfish, rude, and parasitic. If they want to solo content, then do it. Don't drag a team behind you through the gauntlet of foes that are peeling off in your wake. I think the game needs to become harder, much harder, so that team play improves instead of having the berzerker and his  cheerleaders fawning over how tough the tank is  to fight so much solo.

[RobotLove]

Little button at the bottom of the team list. Looks like a boot.

[aethereal]

It depends on the mission, but in a lot of cases you don't need the tank to defend you.  If the rest of the team is tough enough that they aren't seeing their health budge, I'm gonna push ahead.  In that case, a lot of the value of the tank becomes getting it so that there's a nice tight ball of enemies on the next group so that we can more efficiently AoE them out.  That's hard to accomplish if you're moving with the pack and the pack is going nuts on each spawn, so you move ahead of the pack, let them come to the next spawn to find it clustered around you, and let them kill most of it, and then move on to repeat while they burn down the stragglers.

 

That's obviously inappropriate to your role if people are dying or close-to as you do it.  But the fact is, in lots of content, people don't need tanks to control aggro, and trying to behave as though you have a super important aggro control job when nobody cares if they pick up a little aggro is dumb.

[Sir Myshkin]

Tanking Theory has been talked about several times in this thread since the game came back, I'll link both of them at the bottom for you. There's a lot of different perspectives towards what a tank role should fill and not necessarily one that fits in just CoH, or is exclusive to CoH. Don't take that as me trying to justify any experience you had, but trying to outline that some peoples approach to the role aren't going to be a cookie-cutter experience for everyone.

 

Like this as an example:

35 minutes ago, Psylenz0511 said:

The tanks break off from the first couple groups and let the rest of the team clean up after them...

A typical--and traditional--expectation of the Tanker's role on a team was to engage, absorb the alpha, assure the team is good, and then prep the next spawn. It was/is not abnormal for this process to involve leaving behind a straggler (or two) at low health which the team (as in seven other individuals) should be able to handle safely on their own as the Tanker progresses for the next spawn to set up, pack together, alpha, etc.

 

I have met my share of players who do not prefer this method, but it is one of the most common and widely adopted practices.

 

55 minutes ago, Psylenz0511 said:

There used to be topics of convesation whether  you had to take taunt on a tank with other means of drawing aggro. Not anymore.

Specifically to here, back at the beginning of the year Tanker's received a significant overhaul to their performance. Your profile says you've been here since April 2019, but just in case you missed some of it, one key aspect was improvements to the Gauntlet inherent. Taunt functionality works much better/cleaner now than it ever did before, and collection and control of aggro is easier. Taunt is still a useful tool (particularly at forcing ranged enemies into melee), but it isn't necessarily a forced requirement depending on how a Tanker is build and played. There are multiple methods of accruing enemy ire: taunt itself, damage, and debuff. Since Gauntlet spams taunt out of everything damage-based a Tanker does now, 'taunt' is often easily covered outside of exclusively specific (and ranged) needs (sometimes), then Damage (improved AoE range of effect, some sets even have damage auras which can act like a taunt zone), and Debuff (whether toggles or general abilities, also many sets that carry these too).

 

The "Taunt" ability has become more of a choice due to game improvements more than "I just don't want it."

 

41 minutes ago, Psylenz0511 said:

Teams split all too frequently...

By the time a lot of players get to 50, get their builds fleshed out, slotted, and IO's in place, then pack in Incarnate abilities on top of that, having a team split up is not necessarily a bad thing if all players involved are competent and self-managed (capable of handling their own) at any given difficulty level. Some times having an 8-top team stick together spawn-to-spawn is bad efficiency. I've built my fair share of characters that are not only more than capable of laying out an entire spawn quickly on their own, but can do it in relative self-contained safety. If you have more than four players on a team who can dish out 500 AoE damage every 6-8/s, having them clumped together is likely wasting damage.

 

Again, not trying to justify it, just detailing that a case can be made for the circumstance.

 

48 minutes ago, Psylenz0511 said:

These tanks are selfish, rude, and parasitic.

Ultimately your concern comes down to a lack of communication between the team members involved. Speak up on the team and express your thoughts and see what's going on. More players are willing to dial back than you might think. Its really easy to get into a specific mental mode (especially on high-end melee builds) of just bull-rush when teams can plow through content like a hurricane. Above all, if you're the lead on the team than take control of the situation, you are after all ultimately the one with the power to choose a different point-guard if the dynamic isn't working.

 

The hardest thing in this game isn't going to be the content, but the simple act of not communicating with the players around you.

 

[Fortuneteller]

1 hour ago, Psylenz0511 said:

The tanks break off from the first couple groups and let the rest of the team clean up after them, pushing further and further into the mission

Sounds like excellent tanking in my books. You don't seem to understand how it works. Tanks job is pretty much to absorb alphas. After an enemy groups initial alpha strike the chances of a team wipe are extremely small. Tank is free to advance to the next mob and take the alpha, taunt, then by that time the team has cleaned up and followed up behind.
 

1 hour ago, Psylenz0511 said:

These tanks are selfish, rude, and parasitic.

[MTeague]

My take on it?  A good tank should be willing to adapt to what the team needs.

 

If the team is kitted out well and can take the stray mobs here and there as the tank runs off to the next spawn, then do that, keep the pace going, keep gathering up the mobs, etc.

But have enough awareness to stomp on the brakes if your team, for whatever reason, can't take that.

• Maybe you suddenly found yourself on a team of people who are levelling up their very first characters and dont' have any IO's yet.  It does happen.
• Maybe you weren't looking and OH, this isn't all Council trash, this is First Ward Shepherds. Or Night Ward Awakened. Or IDF. Or other mobs that REALLY lay on the hurt. You leave half the pull alive to get the next before people are ready and you're probably looking at a team wipe.  Be smart enough to adapt in those situations.

Also be aware of what the team's expectations are for how to handle missions.

Joining a team that wants Kill Most when you want Speed Runs, or joining a team that wants Speed Runs when you want Kill Most, is Instant Headache, just add water.

Find out what it is first, and decline if it's not your flavor.  *Everyone* will be happier for it.

[Sovera]

So, you're railing because people are playing in a way different than what you'd like.

 

k.

 

Make your own tank and play as you think tanks ought to be played then.

[Haijinx]

This game is EZ mode.

 

For brutes / scrappers / stalkers / sentinels / SOA.  

Why wait on the tank? 

 

For tankers:

"Protect" the team?  From what?

 

For the others? 

Well at least there is some risk in your gameplay.   

 

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Tanking Theory has been talked about several times in this thread since the game came back, I'll link both of them at the bottom for you. There's a lot of different perspectives towards what a tank role should fill and not necessarily one that fits in just CoH, or is exclusive to CoH. Don't take that as me trying to justify any experience you had, but trying to outline that some peoples approach to the role aren't going to be a cookie-cutter experience for everyone.

 

Like this as an example:

A typical--and traditional--expectation of the Tanker's role on a team was to engage, absorb the alpha, assure the team is good, and then prep the next spawn. It was/is not abnormal for this process to involve leaving behind a straggler (or two) at low health which the team (as in seven other individuals) should be able to handle safely on their own as the Tanker progresses for the next spawn to set up, pack together, alpha, etc.

 

I have met my share of players who do not prefer this method, but it is one of the most common and widely adopted practices.

 

Specifically to here, back at the beginning of the year Tanker's received a significant overhaul to their performance. Your profile says you've been here since April 2019, but just in case you missed some of it, one key aspect was improvements to the Gauntlet inherent. Taunt functionality works much better/cleaner now than it ever did before, and collection and control of aggro is easier. Taunt is still a useful tool (particularly at forcing ranged enemies into melee), but it isn't necessarily a forced requirement depending on how a Tanker is build and played. There are multiple methods of accruing enemy ire: taunt itself, damage, and debuff. Since Gauntlet spams taunt out of everything damage-based a Tanker does now, 'taunt' is often easily covered outside of exclusively specific (and ranged) needs (sometimes), then Damage (improved AoE range of effect, some sets even have damage auras which can act like a taunt zone), and Debuff (whether toggles or general abilities, also many sets that carry these too).

 

The "Taunt" ability has become more of a choice due to game improvements more than "I just don't want it."

 

By the time a lot of players get to 50, get their builds fleshed out, slotted, and IO's in place, then pack in Incarnate abilities on top of that, having a team split up is not necessarily a bad thing if all players involved are competent and self-managed (capable of handling their own) at any given difficulty level. Some times having an 8-top team stick together spawn-to-spawn is bad efficiency. I've built my fair share of characters that are not only more than capable of laying out an entire spawn quickly on their own, but can do it in relative self-contained safety. If you have more than four players on a team who can dish out 500 AoE damage every 6-8/s, having them clumped together is likely wasting damage.

 

Again, not trying to justify it, just detailing that a case can be made for the circumstance.

 

Ultimately your concern comes down to a lack of communication between the team members involved. Speak up on the team and express your thoughts and see what's going on. More players are willing to dial back than you might think. Its really easy to get into a specific mental mode (especially on high-end melee builds) of just bull-rush when teams can plow through content like a hurricane. Above all, if you're the lead on the team than take control of the situation, you are after all ultimately the one with the power to choose a different point-guard if the dynamic isn't working.

 

The hardest thing in this game isn't going to be the content, but the simple act of not communicating with the players around you.

 

Was going to reply, but this covers my response.

 

But I will say this, if you want to see true bezerker watch me play a scrapper or stalker.  lol. As it should be.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Infinitum

[Gobbledigook]

Puny man stay close to Hulk, whilst Hulk SMASH!!!!! Lol. 

 

I am sure those "Scrankers" are having lots of fun 😉

Edited September 5, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Puny man stay close to Hulk, whilst Hulk SMASH!!!!! Lol. 

 

I am sure those "Scrankers" are having lots of fun 😉

I have one tanking tank. Inv/Ice. All the rest are scrankers.

[Psylenz0511]

When I say leave foes in their wake I don't mean minions and lieutenant s, I mean superstunners paragon protector boss werewolves jump bots that don't die in the first salvo

[Omega-202]

18 minutes ago, Psylenz0511 said:

When I say leave foes in their wake I don't mean minions and lieutenant s, I mean superstunners paragon protector boss werewolves jump bots that don't die in the first salvo

Those are better handled by the rest of the team.  The Tank moves on, takes the alpha of the next spawn, along with the other AoE attackers, while the Stalkers and pets clean up the remaining enemies.  

 

What you're describing as "bad" is actually how an efficient endgame team moves.  And the whole splitting off thing is also part of it.  Why should a Brute/Scrapper/VEAT/bulky Corruptor stick with the team when they can go off on a branch and solo the groups on their own without worrying about wasting AoE potential?  

 

I'm not saying this to be mean, but I think the issue is less that the Tank is moving too fast and more that you're moving too slow.  

Edited September 5, 2020 by Omega-202

[ninja surprise]

11 hours ago, Psylenz0511 said:

I don't think 3/4 of the tanks in game know how to keep their team moving efficiently, taunting hard targets off teammates, managing aggro, balancing the team against support, dps, and those that heal them. Teams split all too frequently, but I am talking about when a tank just goes berzerk and abandons the rest of the team. It amazes me still when a tank gets to the final boss, EB, AV and says, 'I found him' but no teleports follow up. 

 

Yeah, that's annoying. If the team doesn't get a TP to the end then they're left behind in a map full of aggro and could wipe. 

52 minutes ago, Psylenz0511 said:

When I say leave foes in their wake I don't mean minions and lieutenant s, I mean superstunners paragon protector boss werewolves jump bots that don't die in the first salvo

It doesn't take 8 people to stand around and watch a nearly dead Protector wait for MOG to wear off to deliver the finishing blow.

Any single hero should be able to defeat any single boss. There are some builds that can't solo but those are rare (and that person should be following the tank).

Most builds can take out an Elite Boss by themselves.

So it doesn't require a full team of 8 to defeat every single last critter in a spawn. I think it's annoying when the tank thinks s/he needs to personally defeat every single critter then stands around for a few seconds before moving on. 

 

The tank should evaluate when the spawn's almost defeated then run ahead to the next one to trigger the alpha strike and get them clumped up while the team cleans up. 

After two or three spawns the tank should be able to tell how long it takes the team to clean-up and when to leave for the next spawn. 

 

You're right that bad players are bad teammates. 

LIke Sir Myshkin says, that's about communication.  Say, "Hey Tanker, slow down we can't keep up. " Or, "This isn't a speed run, let's stick together." Or, "This isn't a kill-all, let's look for the objective."  If that doesn't solve the problem you can kick the annoying person or quit and join a new team.

 

Heck you can even start your own server and enforce your playstyle.

[Psylenz0511]

1 hour ago, Omega-202 said:

Those are better handled by the rest of the team.  The Tank moves on, takes the alpha of the next spawn, along with the other AoE attackers, while the Stalkers and pets clean up the remaining enemies.  

 

What you're describing as "bad" is actually how an efficient endgame team moves.  And the whole splitting off thing is also part of it.  Why should a Brute/Scrapper/VEAT/bulky Corruptor stick with the team when they can go off on a branch and solo the groups on their own without worrying about wasting AoE potential?  

 

I'm not saying this to be mean, but I think the issue is less that the Tank is moving too fast and more that you're moving too slow.  

I have found this is not how pre-50 teams work efficiently. The team has to clear spawns in certain locations like the Yin TF mision 1 or the plot will not advance. I am not saying this to be mean but I think you figured out how 8 man teams kill stuff faster than a lone controller, blaster, defender. This goes for the kill all missions in Citadel TFs (yet another non incarnate setting). 

 

12 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

 

By the time a lot of players get to 50, get their builds fleshed out, slotted, and IO's in place, then pack in Incarnate abilities on top of that, having a team split up is not necessarily a bad thing if all players involved are competent and self-managed (capable of handling their own) at any given difficulty level. Some times having an 8-top team stick together spawn-to-spawn is bad efficiency. I've built my fair share of characters that are not only more than capable of laying out an entire spawn quickly on their own, but can do it in relative self-contained safety. If you have more than four players on a team who can dish out 500 AoE damage every 6-8/s, having them clumped together is likely wasting damage.

 

Again, not trying to justify it, just detailing that a case can be made for the circumstance.

 

Ultimately your concern comes down to a lack of communication between the team members involved.

 

I certainly know teams run differently post-50 compared to pre-50. I was referring to content such as TV trials, Yin TF, Citadel. Post level 50 is an entirely different game. The collision between pre-50 styles and post 50 methods is usually readily observable in ITFs. God help the poor level 35-49 fighting +5s and all that defense debuff

[Omega-202]

7 minutes ago, Psylenz0511 said:

I have found this is not how pre-50 teams work efficiently. The team has to clear spawns in certain locations like the Yin TF mision 1 or the plot will not advance. I am not saying this to be mean but I think you figured out how 8 man teams kill stuff faster than a lone controller, blaster, defender. This goes for the kill all missions in Citadel TFs (yet another non incarnate setting). 

If you're running a speed Yin, which is 90% of them, and you can't keep up with the steamroller, then you either shouldn't have joined or should just keep up as best you can and deal with it.  Don't join a speed Yin on an under 50 and expect to keep up if you're not built for it.  Yes, you need to clear the 4 spawns in the first mission, but the Tank will be plowing ahead, and its up to the lowbies and single targets to mop up the revived stunner or two.  It's totally expected that 2 under 50s can handle an even level stunner boss.  If you can't that's on you.  That's how Yin is run.  

 

For Citadel, every run I've ever done has been a speed run because that is just too long to bother with otherwise.  If you're on a Citadel, you're expected to carry your own weight and be able to branch off and clear as fast as possible.  If everyone stuck together in a giant ball in those tunnels, the TF would take 2 hours, instead of the 35 mins it should be with a good team.  

 

Regarding running to the end of missions and not always getting a TP, its generally expected that everyone on a speed run has at least half stealth from the IO, if not full stealth, so you can get yourself there, or just wait for the people at the end to clear the boss and move on.  Either run through also, or join the non stealthers at the door and clear what you can while you wait for the stealthers to finish the last room.

 

I think your issue is you're joining speed TFs which are usually advertised as such, and then complaining that everyone's running it for speed.  Keep up or make your own team.  Don't join speed runs and then complain that they're speed runs.  

[Sovera]

I do understand where he is coming from. But he is only seeing it from his side too. Eight people milling around trying to land a last few hits on a few stragglers means what? Hits animating after the thing already is a corpse.

 

What Scrapper or Brute or Stalker can't handle a +1 boss that a Tanker needs to be there babysitting the last slivers of HP being removed? What AT can't eat a purple or two if they are in danger?

 

Just make your own tank and play it how you believe it should be, but don't be surprised to see a Scrapper moving ahead and do the Tanker's job of gathering the enemies, getting agro, starting to AoE, so that when the team arrives they find a neat ball of enemies to unload on... and then the Tanker joins in along with the rest.

[VV]

I agree there are a lot of people who play the tanker AT are bad at traditional tanking. I also agree that endgame content/builds are pretty EZ and rarely need a decent tanker, or a decent anything. It's just button mash as fast as you can to win. However, in lower-level content, competent playing is more important. Last night I was rolling with my new L33 Rad/Dark with a bunch of other 30-ish teammates. In that case, especially where many people will be under-enhanced, it makes a difference.

 

But, really, if someone wants to be a scrapper and abandon any responsibility or expectations, why not just play a scrapper?

Edited September 8, 2020 by VV

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, VV said:

But, really, if someone wants to be a scrapper and abandon any responsibility or expectations, why not just play a scrapper?

Because we're playing a game where expectations are useless.  I don't look at other people's builds in game. I don't care. I don't care what AT they play. I assume they know what they're doing and when they don't it doesn't affect how I play other than slowing down or speeding up.

 

If I'm on a tank or brute that has taunt, I use it. If I don't have it, I don't. If the team seems to need more help to keep from faceplanting I slow down and spend more time watching the team's health and attacking those that are hurting my teammates. If everyone's green bars stay full, I remove my leash and go full scrapperlock. It doesn't matter what AT I'm playing. That's how I play. Same when I'm on squishies. One person having a harder time than the rest of the team? Focus buffs on them.

 

I honestly don't give a shit about other people's expectations because I place no expectations on them. I find that rude. I just want everyone to have fun.

[Sovera]

Pretty much. My stint as a Blaster was brief (I prefer non-stop pew pew than counting the seconds until my nuke is back up) but I played just like I play my Tanker, and Scrapper, and Stalker. Just jump into the middle of things and unleash damage. Eat inspirations to survive if need be.

 

If there is one thing I miss is being able to scout ahead and look for the boss or the clickie needed for the mission. As a tanker I don't get to do that anymore.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

If there is one thing I miss is being able to scout ahead and look for the boss or the clickie needed for the mission. As a tanker I don't get to do that anymore

Of course you can!

 

The entire second half of Captain America: First Avenger is "Tank scouting ahead." Except "scouting" is "plow through everything like a madman until you reach the end and have the team drop in from above."

 

I do it all the time! Just imagine a massive imposing force ripping through a hallway, floor after floor of an office building and hordes of villains going "Wait... what was that? Run after it!" Finally get to the end and clear out the end objective and just smugly be all "It's good, I got it, move on."

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Of course you can!

To be fair I do it if there is a second tank around. But I wouldn't abandon my squishies.

[Tsuko]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:51 PM, Psylenz0511 said:

I certainly know teams run differently post-50 compared to pre-50. I was referring to content such as TV trials, Yin TF, Citadel. Post level 50 is an entirely different game. The collision between pre-50 styles and post 50 methods is usually readily observable in ITFs. God help the poor level 35-49 fighting +5s and all that defense debuff

 

that's the entire reason why i never PU team (but to help a friend coming in an itf to leech exp, as all 35/49 here when 3/4 lvl 50 full incarnate are pushing)

 

Take your 4/5 levels and die (a lot) or go back to solo white mission in -1x0.

 

That's weird, but we never need to wait a lot to make a full team even in reunion at USA times... seems people should be masochists.

 

My toon is a tanker not a baby sitter.

 

1) If you pull, you tank.

2) If you do sh.t, you die.

3) If you re not happy, you leave.

 

With all my consideration,

 

Tsuko, Former Brute

 

😄

Edited September 8, 2020 by Tsuko

[Nemu]

I don't have any expectation that the people that I team with will play competently so I make sure that every character I make is self sufficient and each can take alphas for the team. However this does lead me down that path of plowing ahead and being super aggressive without considering the team make up and sometimes that cuts into other people's notion of fun. One thing I never do though is leave hard targets behind for the rest of the team to deal with. I will always stay and clean up especially if the people dealing with those hard targets are not damage oriented.

 

The other day I exemplared down to level 20 something radios with my blaster running on +3/8. As soon as the team lead hit 27 and I got inferno I started essentially soloing the missions, as some of my teammates put it. The tank on the team quit because of it I didn't give him the opportunity to do his job and have fun.

 

That was a case of me not adapting to team dynamics. But I've also seen other players do the same. Tanks that rush forward while the rest of the team which consists of not IOed, pre-32 controllers trying to kill the 3 +4 bosses that they left behind? Seen plenty of those. The speeders that rush to the objective but don't have the means to deal with it themselves so they just say "here's the boss" and wait for the rest of the team? seen those too. I learned my lesson from that experience and the next time I can throttle back and adjust to team dynamics and ensure everyone has fun.

 

From my observations though not a lot of people pay attention to what they are doing while they are playing, maybe they are high, maybe they are sleeping through it, maybe they are truly narcissistic.

 

TL;DR it's about being mindful.

[Haijinx]

Y'all wait long enough for the Tanker to take the alpha?