Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

That might be worth exploring then

 

It is being explored, and something might end up hitting test in the next or following iteration if its determined worth giving the change a shot.

[BrandX]

7 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

EDIT : the tankers and brute EM need something compared to the double FC of stalkers and Scrappers

 

Why?  The Double FC is a product of their inherent powers, not a product of the set.  Not getting double damage, so tack on a double FC.  If double FC is passed around, will full critical happen on TF for Scrappers and Stalkers?

 

Do they get the Fury and punch voke?

[Bopper]

 

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

So it -could- be moved into the other two powers without much of a balancing issue? That might be worth exploring then

Let's be honest...the only reason why people keep asking for EF effects being removed from Bone Smasher is to try to abuse the current options. It will certainly have its balance reviewed if such a change is made.

 

Ultimately, people want to chase a TF > ET (fast) > BS > EP > ET (fast) rotation as much as possible (for scrappers). Stalkers will have their own chains for AS

Edited October 28, 2020 by Bopper

[Brutal Justice]

12 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I wanted no mechanics.  Old energy transfer.  Barrage turned into Hack numbers.  Full crits with double self damage on energy transfer crit.  Didn’t get even one of those things...

Is it weird to quote yourself?   I just wanted to say I am not bitter about the changes because it sounds like they have helped quite a bit and I’m glad the devs have been working hard on it.  

 

Ok... maybe a little bitter about the crits.  

[Super Atom]

Just now, Bopper said:

 

Let's be honest...the only reason why people keep asking for EF effects being removed from Bone Smasher is to try to abuse the current options. It will certainly have its balance reviewed if such a change is made.

I personally like it in Bone Smasher, I think It's easily avoided if you have EF but don't want to use it on BS.

 

one last question though @Captain Powerhouse If it was moved from TF to BU the 100% EF, would that cause an issue? (side note, i also like it in TF)

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

I personally like it in Bone Smasher, I think It's easily avoided if you have EF but don't want to use it on BS.

 

one last question though @Captain Powerhouse If it was moved from TF to BU the 100% EF, would that cause an issue? (side note, i also like it in TF)

I know you're addressing CPH, but in general we would see a reduction in the BU effects if you do that. For example instead of getting a 80% damage buff for 10s, you might get a 50% damage buff for 10s and 1 EF stack. However, the mechanics of TF are to see if you already have an EF prior to granting one. So if you go BU then TF, you won't have your 2nd EF (atleast not how it's meched now).

[Tsuko]

5 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Why?  The Double FC is a product of their inherent powers, not a product of the set.  Not getting double damage, so tack on a double FC.  If double FC is passed around, will full critical happen on TF for Scrappers and Stalkers?

 

Do they get the Fury and punch voke?

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I know you're addressing CPH, but in general we would see a reduction in the BU effects if you do that. For example instead of getting a 80% damage buff for 10s, you might get a 50% damage buff for 10s and 1 EF stack. However, the mechanics of TF are to see if you already have an EF prior to granting one. So if you go BU then TF, you won't have your 2nd EF (atleast not how it's meched now).

And that wouldn't be at all worth it, because you'd burn your EF in the first second of your Build Up, then have 30% less damage for the remaining 9 seconds than you would have with a regular Build Up (this is part of why Street Justice stinks outside of Stalkers!).

 

(Not necessarily addressed to you, Bopper.)

[ScarySai]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I know you're addressing CPH, but in general we would see a reduction in the BU effects if you do that. For example instead of getting a 80% damage buff for 10s, you might get a 50% damage buff for 10s and 1 EF stack. However, the mechanics of TF are to see if you already have an EF prior to granting one. So if you go BU then TF, you won't have your 2nd EF (atleast not how it's meched now).

I would be mostly okay with this, if that's how it would go down. But that's my own personal playstyle, others would be inclined to disagree for a variety of reasons.

 

Like I said to you earlier, focused bone smasher is not bad, but it cannot possibly compete with ET.

 

That's not a fault with either power, it's just the way things scale out, especially for stalkers. With ET I can beat the regen of a monster already, so why would I use focused bone smasher when it's weak regen would largely be resisted anyway? Especially when un-focused bone smasher is still pretty damn good, as opposed to slow ET really mudding the rotation a bit.

Edited October 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[Super Atom]

Just now, ScarySai said:

I would be mostly okay with this, if that's how it would go down.

 

Like I said to you earlier, focused bone smasher is not bad, but it cannot possibly compete with ET.

 

That's not a fault with either power, it's just the way things scale out, especially for stalkers. With ET I can beat the regen of a monster already, so why would I use focused bone smasher when it's weak regen would largely be resisted anyway? Especially when un-focused bone smasher is still pretty damn good, as opposed to slow ET really mudding the rotation a bit.

Not even with the -regen? I could see trying to maintain the -regen on specific enemies being decently useful.

[ScarySai]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

Not even with the -regen? I could see trying to maintain the -regen on specific enemies being decently useful.

I tried a few rotations on Scrapyard and +4 numina the other day, in both instances the ET rotations beat the bone smasher rotations substantially.

 

ET just hits really, really hard.

 

Also, let's stop fighting, children. At least pretend to be professional, take the fighting to PMs.

 

The gap widens as teams are introduced, as bone smasher becomes less important the more debuffers/buffs are working with you.

Edited October 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[Taboo]

22 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That was not the reason. The reason it went into Bone Smasher was to keep some parity with Energy Assault, something that is not necessary, just a sometimes "nice when things match."

So Energy Melee got hijacked by Energy Assault. That's what you're saying?

 

That just seems so wrong.

 

Is this the way it is going to be for real?

Edited October 28, 2020 by Taboo

[siolfir]

Just now, Bopper said:

Let's be honest...the only reason why people keep asking for EF effects being removed from Bone Smasher is to try to abuse the current options. It will certainly have its balance reviewed if such a change is made.

A little extreme there. Abuse? Have you considered that Bone Smasher is the hardest-hitting power in a single-target chain that benefits from a full critical, is the 3rd best DPA, and that if I never see the slow Energy Transfer animation again it will be too soon?

 

That many people, myself included, just wanted no EF effects AT ALL and this is our way of attempting to ignore it exists, by making the only use we cared about - fast ET - the only effect that can happen? How about you stop assuming my intentions.

[ScarySai]

Hey, let's not.

 

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

That many people, myself included, just wanted no EF effects AT ALL and this is our way of attempting to ignore it exists, by making the only use we cared about - fast ET - the only effect that can happen? 

I'm trying my best to not say removing focused BS altogether would be a good idea, though if other generators aren't added that's kinda where I'm leaning on it.

 

ET is too important, it's like picking between crushing uppercut and sweeping to spend combo points on, but minus the more sources of generating combo points. You're always going to pick crushing uppercut when it's up between the two, that's just the logical decision.

[Troo]

21 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Let's be honest...the only reason why people keep asking for EF effects being removed from Bone Smasher is to try to abuse the current options. It will certainly have its balance reviewed if such a change is made.

Actually, I like to use Bone Smasher to try and stack additional Stun (not the 100% stun but just the 60%).

 

The way it is set up now, Bone Smasher is stuck. Can't use BS after TF without losing the fast ET.

[Captain Powerhouse]

10 minutes ago, Taboo said:

So Energy Melee got hijacked by Energy Assault. That's what you're saying?

 

It started the other way around. Energy Assault picked up stuff that was in the works already for Energy Melee.

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I would be mostly okay with this, if that's how it would go down. But that's my own personal playstyle, others would be inclined to disagree for a variety of reasons.

 

Like I said to you earlier, focused bone smasher is not bad, but it cannot possibly compete with ET.

 

That's not a fault with either power, it's just the way things scale out, especially for stalkers. With ET I can beat the regen of a monster already, so why would I use focused bone smasher when it's weak regen would largely be resisted anyway? Especially when un-focused bone smasher is still pretty damn good, as opposed to slow ET really mudding the rotation a bit.

I always envisioned it as... you got ST annihilator in Fast ET, you got AoE smasher in Power Crash, and you have jack-of-all trades support in Bone Smasher. I always view this as a 1 combo system, and Stalkers and Scrappers simply get the added niceness that they can pick two of these options instead of one. However, min-maxing tendencies are tying to chase two of the best option instead of chasing the two best options.

[Vanden]

I think I have to agree with @Bopper that the people arguing against Bone Smasher being a spender are trying to abuse the situation. Right now the only actual problem with it being a spender is that if you get a crit TF you can't use it while waiting for ET to recharge. I think that's an acceptable wrinkle to keep the set from being just plain better on Scrappers and Stalkers than on Brutes and Tankers.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

I think I have to agree with @Bopper that the people arguing against Bone Smasher being a spender are trying to abuse the situation. Right now the only actual problem with it being a spender is that if you get a crit TF you can't use it while waiting for ET to recharge. I think that's an acceptable wrinkle to keep the set from being just plain better on Scrappers and Stalkers than on Brutes and Tankers.

I never actually looked at it that way before. I thought the entire intention behind the crit thing was to encourage fast ET and then one of the other two, not two fast ET's

 

If thats what people are saying, I don't support that idea at all

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Atom

[Troo]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I'm trying my best to not say removing focused BS altogether would be a good idea

Bingo.

[ScarySai]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I always envisioned it as... you got ST annihilator in Fast ET, you got AoE smasher in Power Crash, and you have jack-of-all trades support in Bone Smasher. I always view this as a 1 combo system, and Stalkers and Scrappers simply get the added niceness that they can pick two of these options instead of one. However, min-maxing tendencies are tying to chase two of the best option instead of chasing the two best options.

I guess my problem is I don't see bone smasher offering anything valuable over ET for a DPS based archetype. Especially when the rotations that use ET are very capable of ripping harder targets in half, and stunlocking them. Anything below an EB gets almost erased by ET, which invalidates pretty much any debuff right there. Bone smasher's could be good on an AV, but it isn't good enough to make it worth spending focus on over ET.

 

Power crash is amazing, energy transfer is amazing, yet with bone smasher, I feel like I have to avoid using it to do my job better.

 

I think "abuse" is an awful way to put it. Brutes and tanks are another matter entirely, they kinda got left out on a very, very important mechanic. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by ScarySai

[Bopper]

13 minutes ago, siolfir said:

A little extreme there. Abuse? Have you considered that Bone Smasher is the hardest-hitting power in a single-target chain that benefits from a full critical, is the 3rd best DPA, and that if I never see the slow Energy Transfer animation again it will be too soon?

 

That many people, myself included, just wanted no EF effects AT ALL and this is our way of attempting to ignore it exists, by making the only use we cared about - fast ET - the only effect that can happen? How about you stop assuming my intentions.

I love Bone Smasher. Everyone loves Bone Smasher. That's why they want it to not have EF, so that they can use BS freely and be able to sometimes not have to cast slow ET at all. So yes, that is exactly what I meant by try to abuse. They are asking to nerf something so they can buff their chains.

 

But let's be real, this current version, with a rotation of ET (slow) > TF > ET (fast) > BS > EP performs better than any single target chain the original Energy Melee set was able to do. People keep forgetting how powerful ET(slow) is and how HUGE of a buff cutting its recharge from 20s down to 10s was.

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

Actually, I like to use Bone Smasher to try and stack additional Stun (not the 100% stun but just the 60%).

 

The way it is set up now, Bone Smasher is stuck. Can't use BS after TF without losing the fast ET.

Use BS before TF.

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I guess my problem is I don't see bone smasher offering anything valuable over ET for a DPS based archetype. Especially when the rotations that use ET are very capable of ripping harder targets in half, and stunlocking them. Anything below an EB gets almost erased by ET, which invalidates pretty much any debuff right there. Bone smasher's could be good on an AV, but it isn't good enough to make it worth spending focus on over ET.

 

Power crash is amazing, energy transfer is amazing, yet with bone smasher, I feel like I have to avoid using it to do my job better.

 

I think "abuse" is an awful way to put it. Brutes and tanks are another matter entirely, they kinda got left out on a very, very important mechanic. 

It is worth remembering the -100% regen is useful, as it has an exponential impact on your target's regeneration periods. Also, BS hits like a truck and is capable of performing a full crit. So, it's good. But it's maybe 80% as good as fast ET (arguably, I dunno...it's kind of situational).

[Mystic_Cross]

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Use BS before TF.

Or after ET.