Focused Feedback: Titan Weapons Revamp

[Mystic Fortune]

You know what would soften the blow of these changes for me? A Nemesis Staff skin for Titan Weapons.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Mystic Fortune

[ExeErdna]

I'm overall fine with momentum changes now TW has an interesting rotation that requires using the whole set to try to keep the momentum up completely. Yet it doesn't feel strong unless you're specing into it being strong. I made an RA/TW tanker and imo TW needs to keep the tanker AOE across the board due to the lack of depth perception at times those "5 feet" aren't breaking much. It's easier to use but still hard to master and mastery needs a something more than the momentum. I'm cool with it losing the dot(since the dot only makes sense if you're using the bladed titan weapons imo) yet the range the set needs that to feel right.

[Galaxy Brain]

The general boosted range is still there @ExeErdna, each attack has about 8.5ft range or so.

 

As for throwing something at the wall, what if we did this:

1. Add the ~10% base damage back into TW attacks
2. However, make them follow formula (10% slower rech, more end, etc)
3. Still apply the 25% stat changes in momentum based off the new numbers

This would be a subtle change, but may give the set a *scootch* more power to where you can say swing 1 less time per encounter? The boosted recharge times with napkin math would be less than 1 second slower during momentum, but be still notably faster between momentum periods as you'd still be using the faster recharge by the time you use the power again more often than not.

 

[ForeverLaxx]

What this change feels like to me is that it lowers the top end performance, raises the bottom-level (we're talking SOs) a bit with usability and QoL fixes, which may get more people to play the set. I don't like sets that are "allowed" to be completely bonkers if you're able to navigate the maze with zero mistakes, especially when performance is way worse if you can't do that. It seems to me that people upset that this makes the set weaker than it used to be are missing the point that that's part of the goal: it's being nerfed because it's too good currently while also getting a few QoL buffs to make it more attractive to a more casual player. Considering the set is still strong even after these changes, I don't see a problem.

 

It still plays like it used to and there's no real change to any combat style or attack chain, barring what I read a few pages back about the addition of 0.1 animation time now makes an old chain basically unusable. Perhaps that was the intended goal of that change? I just know the set is apparently still strong and feels the same, so I don't know why people are upset beyond the loss of large damage numbers.

[AureumError]

While the changes aren't too bad on other characters the loss of "big numbers", as others have put it, is really noticeable on my Stone Armor/Titan Weapon Tank.
My Tank performs relatively well under I26 conditions, with the -Damage drawbacks of Granite somewhat balanced by the additional damage Titan Weapons does with or without my pocket Kin.
On Brainstorm, that is no longer the case, it is even noticeable with stacked Fulcrum.

I can see how Titan Weapons would be unbalanced on characters not blessed with the -Damage and -Recharge of Granite, so I won't bemoan the changes that only affect a small number of characters too much.

It does make me hope that Stone Armor might receive a slight overhaul in the future as well though.

[Tore]

I genuinely get so frustrated by the lack of remorse when it comes to rearranging the dps charts. 

 

1.) Is TW a major problem within the playerbase that it has caused any disrutption?

     Answer: No. Not even a little bit. "But what about..?" Nope. You're just wrong, sorry. It's just a private server where people come to enjoy a classic game and were promised extremely limited tampering and at the same time any changes to be made were to be buffs and/or additional content. Nerfs make no sense and on a private server simply smell of someone sitting in a "dev" position that wants to change things for the sake of changing them.

 

2.) Has TW been exploited to do something it shouldn't, therefore requires a change?

    Answer: Nope. Not that anyone is aware of publicly, and if so privately then that should be talked about and changed, not the entire set revamped to feel even more like sword sets. 

 

3.) Is there genuinely any reason to change this other than preference on #1 dps position?

     Answer: No. There's literally no competition in this game, there's no outcry for changes like this. Maybe in a private dm conversation with someone close to the people running this server. Outside of that, only people crunching numbers really knew or cared about how good TW is. Which is ironic because the lead developer of CoH Jack Emmet foretold of the days when number crunching became the leading decision maker. 

 

 

The reason Titan Weapons were slow, clunky, and hit like a truck, was because that was the entire premise of the set. You're removing literally all of these things. There were sooooo many more exciting idea's that the time it took change TW could have been used for. Instead we're back to nerfing infinitely? This is upsetting and just overall I guess fits the theme of 2020. I'm disheartened and just sad this is the direction Homecoming seems to be taking.

 

[BrandX]

I see in the popularity thread, TW was up there enough, but I do have to wonder if the players who had them, kept on playing them, as I don't see them that often in PuG.  Not to the point I would think they were that popular.

 

So, is the idea to nerf or to make it so people want to keep playing them at high level?

 

I don't even recall if I got mine to 50.  I know I didn't keep playing it, and I've made more than one.

 

Not that I had a problem with it being some top tier, OMG, if you really go all in on making one, this is the set.

 

Though, wasn't the point of the set, to have high end and long animations, to justify the high damage, and then have it's gimmick to be, keeping that damage formula, but with faster animation time?

[csr]

I played my level 28 TW/WP Scrapper from live a bit.  She's running on pure Common IOs atm, not even a Stealth IO.  The play seems quite a bit smoother.  The damage output is definitely less, but that was intended.  The only thing I really don't like is that Build Momentum's +Dam buff now seems too low.

Edited November 6, 2020 by csr

[MunkiLord]

On 11/3/2020 at 5:45 PM, Tore said:

1.) Is TW a major problem within the playerbase that it has caused any disrutption?

     Answer: No. Not even a little bit. "But what about..?" Nope. You're just wrong, sorry. It's just a private server where people come to enjoy a classic game and were promised extremely limited tampering and at the same time any changes to be made were to be buffs and/or additional content. Nerfs make no sense and on a private server simply smell of someone sitting in a "dev" position that wants to change things for the sake of changing them.

 

Emphasis mine. When was that bolded part promised?

[Coyote]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:45 PM, Tore said:

No. Not even a little bit. "But what about..?" Nope. You're just wrong, sorry.

 

Lost me with the arrogance here.

Especially when TW was the best single-target set AND the best AoE set AND tops or close to it in damage mitigation AND could slot Force Feedback in 3 AoEs AND has a Parry power.

 

Mmmm, yeah, nothing to see here. Anyone who sees even a little bit of a problem is just wrong, sorry. 🙄

[Hew]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:45 PM, Tore said:

 

dot dot dot stuff stuff stuff

 

Have you tested? Actually tested? Have you responded to this thread with an accurate breakdown of the results from your testing? 

[Tore]

On 11/6/2020 at 10:32 AM, MunkiLord said:

Emphasis mine. When was that bolded part promised?

Literally when the server was being put together by the homecoming team. If you were around then you would have heard that being talked about alot since several other servers wanted to implement all kinds of new ideas and the homecoming team made a conscious decision to make this a vanilla ish server. 

[Tore]

On 11/6/2020 at 1:39 PM, Coyote said:

 

Lost me with the arrogance here.

Especially when TW was the best single-target set AND the best AoE set AND tops or close to it in damage mitigation AND could slot Force Feedback in 3 AoEs AND has a Parry power.

 

Mmmm, yeah, nothing to see here. Anyone who sees even a little bit of a problem is just wrong, sorry. 🙄

And this hurts who exactly? Causes problems for who? Oh it must be that massive swarm of TW players coming to steal your inf, oh wait, there's a pretty mild playerbase when it comes to TW. 

[Tsuko]

On 11/4/2020 at 12:45 AM, Tore said:

|...]

 

[Jimmy]

Some posts hidden. No politics please.

[Tsuko]

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Some posts hidden. No politics please.

Oups Sorry 🙂

 

So,

 

On 11/4/2020 at 12:45 AM, Tore said:

the lead developer of CoH Jack Emmet foretold of the days when number crunching became the leading decision maker. 

 

 

On 11/4/2020 at 12:45 AM, Tore said:

This is upsetting and just overall I guess fits the theme of 2020. I'm disheartened and just sad this is the direction Homecoming seems to be taking.

 

4 hours ago, Tore said:

Literally when the server was being put together by the homecoming team. If you were around then you would have heard that being talked about alot since several other servers wanted to implement all kinds of new ideas and the homecoming team made a conscious decision to make this a vanilla ish server. 

 

4 hours ago, Tore said:

And this hurts who exactly? Causes problems for who? Oh it must be that massive swarm of TW players coming to steal your inf, oh wait, there's a pretty mild playerbase when it comes to TW. 

 

[Lockpick]

4 hours ago, Tore said:

And this hurts who exactly? Causes problems for who? Oh it must be that massive swarm of TW players coming to steal your inf, oh wait, there's a pretty mild playerbase when it comes to TW. 

I pretty much agree with this in the main.  I'm not a fan of any of these power set changes and saw no real need to do them.  I could see some minor changes here and there, but in the overall scheme of things all these balance changes are not needed because we are a small private server that is predominately PVE.  Who cares if TW over performs a bit in PVE?  I very rarely see them when playing and I know I shelved mine early due to the clunky mechanics.

 

However, there are a number of other changes in this release that do affect me negatively.  I just feel like this release was a "let's make change just to make change" release.  There are some good changes like a new power set, story arcs, stances, TP changes, and maybe the EM changes, but for the most part I find all the balance changes to TW, Blaster secondaries, and secondary movement powers have really missed the mark from a "fun" perspective.  I'm curious how they will be received when they go Live because I am sure a number of players are going to get an unwelcome surprise.

 

What I really fine a bit ironic is that TW is getting nerfed, but EM is getting buffed.  I expect that EM is going to be the new FoTM and is likely over tuned.  Does that both me?  Nope.  One power set is always going to be on top and players that care about that kind of thing will adapt.  These types of changes don't change that behavior, so why make changes that are not needed and likely not wanted?

[Replacement]

No, @Tore. They never said they wouldn't nerf things.

They said they would continue on the development course Paragon operated on.

 

As for the rest of your entire opinion... No, sorry.

A nerf down to "still probably the best set in the game" isn't worth this level of dramatic reaction.

 

Enjoy that momentum is now actually more fun. If you really want the pure experience you claim you're after, maybe try Rebirth or one of those servers that have backed out all Score changes, has not eased merit and incarnate material requirements, has no double xp option, etc.

[siolfir]

13 hours ago, Lockpick said:

What I really fine a bit ironic is that TW is getting nerfed, but EM is getting buffed.

What I find ironic is that it's possible that you really mean this unironically. "How dare they nerf a top tier set and buff a bottom tier one!" That whooshing sound you hear is the point of the changes flying over your head.

 

Check mission clear times after the buff: even with being pushed into top-tier single target damage it's still middle of the road for most content, and unlike other "low mitigation" sets (Fire, Savage) it actively hurts you to have that level of performance (a complaint that was brought about in the feedback thread by someone who wanted the self-damage removed from ET when focused).

 

Will EM end up being a FoTM for a while? Yes, just like most new sets or those that receive a lot of changes: people will want to try out the new shiny since they've already played the others. Is it undeniably the best melee set in the game? No. But it's in the discussion for single target damage, again.

Edited November 8, 2020 by siolfir

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

What I find ironic is that it's possible that you really mean this unironically. "How dare they nerf a top tier set and buff a bottom tier one!" That whooshing sound you hear is the point of the changes flying over your head.

 

I don't recall saying "How dare they".  I merely stated my opinion agreeing with Tore and stated that there will always be a set that is stack ranked #1.  I don't find balance changes in general to be very good for the health of the game, although I do agree that in very rare instances there might be a need to tune a power or set.  However, IMO, it should be extremely rare. 

 

Right now TW is on top, next week EM will be on top, the following week something else will be on top.  Balance changes beget balance changes and that leads to picking winners and losers.

 

Some people are going to be happy and some are going to be not happy with the changes.  The TW change doesn't mean much to me since I played the set to about 17 and did not like the mechanics.  However, a lot of the Blaster secondary and movement changes do affect me and will definitely have an impact on whether I play those sets.

 

By the way, I don't know what has happened to these forums.  I recall the old forums as being relatively friendly without much drama.  People were able to state their opinions without vitriol and animosity.  These forums it seems like people are attacking each other all the time (which I admit I have fallen prey to occasionally).  It's a bit sad how far we have fallen, especially since we are all here because of our passion for the game and we are all stating our opinions so that we hopefully get an improved experience.

[ChzBoi]

Long time lurker, both before and after the snap.....and never got into Titan Weapons. However, I decided to try the changes on test and I will just add my voice to this conversation: I will make and play one on Live if this is the way it will work. Feels way smoother, to me, than what I've tried in the past. Others with more experience with the set may see things better than I, but I am not an expert, just know I like this better! 🙂

[Tore]

18 hours ago, Replacement said:

No, @Tore. They never said they wouldn't nerf things.

They said they would continue on the development course Paragon operated on.

 

As for the rest of your entire opinion... No, sorry.

A nerf down to "still probably the best set in the game" isn't worth this level of dramatic reaction.

 

Enjoy that momentum is now actually more fun. If you really want the pure experience you claim you're after, maybe try Rebirth or one of those servers that have backed out all Score changes, has not eased merit and incarnate material requirements, has no double xp option, etc.

 

I don't exactly know why you want me to go because I'm making an argument that nerfs, to any set, are completely pointless and just result in some slight changes that genuinely mean nothing to the overall population of a game while significantly changing or ruining the experience of characters that may have taken specific people hundreds of hours to build, test, and enjoy. In this case though, not only are the nerfs happening, the set is being completely changed of it's original personality from the actual CoH developers. TW was out for long enough that it could have easily been changed, nerfed, or had basically anything adjusted WELL before shut down.

 

I don't disagree with buffing EM, or anything for that matter. I think the devs made a really good choice by altering the less defining powers of a set into something more fun. In fact the only part of this patch that I don't like is the nerfing. Buff whatever, add more, make it more fun and exciting by engaging the user in new mechanics! Don't start chopping and cutting powersets because they stand out, and if you are going to make adjustments be reasonable, don't say "we're going to literally remove everything that made this set unique" and call that a good change. 

 

I understand people reacting strongly to my previous posts, most of you are right in saying I'm being over dramatic. I just believe this is a very slippery slope that isn't required. The Homecoming team has done an amazing job, and despite my opinions of these changes I still believe they are all great people that enjoy this game as much as any of us and only have good intentions. I most definitely came off hostile towards them previously and want to apologize for that. 

[Kanil]

6 hours ago, Lockpick said:

I don't recall saying "How dare they".  I merely stated my opinion agreeing with Tore and stated that there will always be a set that is stack ranked #1.  I don't find balance changes in general to be very good for the health of the game, although I do agree that in very rare instances there might be a need to tune a power or set.  However, IMO, it should be extremely rare. 

 

Right now TW is on top, next week EM will be on top, the following week something else will be on top.  Balance changes beget balance changes and that leads to picking winners and losers.

 

Some people are going to be happy and some are going to be not happy with the changes.  The TW change doesn't mean much to me since I played the set to about 17 and did not like the mechanics.  However, a lot of the Blaster secondary and movement changes do affect me and will definitely have an impact on whether I play those sets.

 

By the way, I don't know what has happened to these forums.  I recall the old forums as being relatively friendly without much drama.  People were able to state their opinions without vitriol and animosity.  These forums it seems like people are attacking each other all the time (which I admit I have fallen prey to occasionally).  It's a bit sad how far we have fallen, especially since we are all here because of our passion for the game and we are all stating our opinions so that we hopefully get an improved experience.

it's a pretty shitty attitude that is really prevalent with a lot of the common posters, unfortunately. it feels like they're obsessed with 'winning' and 'being right' based on factoids over their own personal testing. the video ban has made this stuff especially more frustrating because so much data is ultimately based on "source: dude trust me" which makes communicating things that betray the common logic or understanding of powersets much harder.

 

i'd actually say that the nature of what homecoming is means that it's naturally gonna attract 'those' types more than not - folks who have been sittin' on those chips for nearly two decades, with over a decade of things being "the same" and uh, the culture of internet interaction changin' making it worse.

 

titan weapons bein' the memetic 'top tier so overpowered' set meant it was always likely going to be targeted for those kinda changes, regardless of where it sits in the "real" high-end power scale (with all the strange caveats that come into play there). SS is probably the next-in-line for that kind of misconception in terms of being smoothed out but nerfed (despite it not really being really 'great' over other potential picks), but uh, given how it's the most popular powerset in the game that thread is probably gonna be a real shitstorm if it ever happens, haha.

 

fun fact about em vs tw aoe testing - my own testing of EM scrapper vs. beta TW scrapper cleartimes (via trapdoor testin') was showing that EM scrapper is roughly even with where my battleaxe times are, which is better than beta TW by a bit, haha.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Kanil

[Replacement]

6 hours ago, Tore said:

 

I don't exactly know why you want me to go because I'm making an argument that nerfs, to any set, are completely pointless

I wouldn't say I want you to go.

Just that any time someone hedges their argument about how we should be keeping the game pure, I'm going to remind them that's not The vision of this server. And if I can, I'll remind them of all the good things Homecoming has done along the way. 🙂

 

[Lines]

7 hours ago, Tore said:

I understand people reacting strongly to my previous posts, most of you are right in saying I'm being over dramatic. I just believe this is a very slippery slope that isn't required. The Homecoming team has done an amazing job, and despite my opinions of these changes I still believe they are all great people that enjoy this game as much as any of us and only have good intentions. I most definitely came off hostile towards them previously and want to apologize for that. 

I think this is absolutely a fair concern and in my eyes it's totally legit to raise as feedback. You're right that it could be a slippery slope.

 

My experience of the work done so far is that they are very cautious about downwards changes that they make and have become even more so as time has gone on. Data collected from people like Galaxy Brain and all the pylon tests goes a long way to defining how far they should take their nerfs and they use that data very practically. I'm actually quite surprised at how mild the TW changes have been.

 

I guess keep in mind that balance is the performance of the set versus the environment, rather than the set versus other sets (except for PvP). It doesn't really matter how much one set outperforms another set as long as the game opposes them both within a certain tolerance. So if EM claims #1 spot in issue 27 (which it won't, but just as an example) but is still adequately challenged by the game, there's no reason to shift it from that spot.

 

They've also noted before that there aren't very many outliers of overpowered sets. Their threshold for when a set is within a tolerable balance is pretty high, I think.

 

I hope that brings some comfort!

Edited November 9, 2020 by Lines