Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[4th.survivor]

25 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Using your phrasing, your argument boils down to "let's keep Trick Arrow bad because it makes more sense that way". None of your proposals help Trick Arrows survivability, or patch up the weaknesses that the set is known for (like organization of affects), and you want the changes solely for thematic logic.  You can make extrapolations and approximations of how these things would work, especially when it's for saving the performance of a weak set. It's a comic book game. I also think that when we do, they should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis the way we are now. Here is an example: Acid Arrow's origins are ambiguous, the current beta effects are better, alternatives are worst for the set currently in both solo and team play. It checks out. Entangling Arrow doesn't make much sense, the effects are currently better, alternatives exist. That one is iffy.

Literally I am suggesting keeping everything the test version has, in some more logical format.

Now, vs an AV:  Acid Arrow, Disrupting Arrow (for maximal -res), EMP arrow (for -regen) and crash, other effects as necessary and heavily resisted while chewing blues

On beta, vs an AV: Acid Arrow (for -debuff res), Disrupting arrow (for -res), EMP arrow (for -regen and ally +res), no crash, spam other effects as necessary to take advantage of less debuff resistance, including a magical 20% -res from a net

My proposal, vs an AV: Acid Arrow, Disrupting Arrow (for maximal -res and -debuff res), spam other effects as necessary to take advantage of less debuff resistance. Keep EMP stocked for when the AV hits 50% in case it spawns an ambush your group isn't ready for and they need some sleeptime, instead of burning it for the -regen effect, or burn it on the AV to generate the ally +res (depending on if this part stays or goes). No net.

 

it's the same rotation any way you shake it, so what has been consolidated?

Where in my actual proposal am I suggesting to keep it as the current, underperforming version, given that it will have the same debuff values as are currently being tested?

Thanks for reading

Edited October 27, 2020 by 4th.survivor

[Monos King]

Malta Robots have To-Hit Resistance though.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Trickshooter]

30 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I like most of your suggestions, except this one.

 

I do not want anything that could notify mobs on Flash Arrow. I understand it's only a single target effect, but I want to be able to debuff in peace from the shadows. 🙂

Effects like -Perception are not inherently immune to aggro, but rather every power that causes these types of effects are individually flagged not to notify mobs. So adding a single-target stun to Flash Arrow (which I don't think is necessary) would not make it suddenly generate aggro. It would have to have that flag changed to "Always" for that to happen. The reason this sort of thing happens with effects like procs is because, in the Powers system, procs are like separate powers that have their own flag, which I think very very few (if any) are flagged not to notify mobs.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Trickshooter

[Monos King]

11 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Where in my actual proposal am I suggesting to keep it as the current, underperforming version, given that it will have the same debuff values as are currently being tested?

My apologies, as I noted, I saw that you were already agreeing with just swapping Disruption Arrow and Acid Arrow's effects but I just wanted to rebuke that statement before continuing, in the event someone else had a similar stance. Aside from the Flash Arrow portion and -def on entangling arrow, I enjoy your current proposals.

 

8 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Effects like -Perception are not inherently immune to aggro, but rather every power that causes these types of effects are individually flagged not to notify mobs. So adding a single-target stun to Flash Arrow (which I don't think is necessary) would not make it suddenly generate aggro. It would have to have that flag changed to "Always" for that to happen. The reason this sort of thing happens with effects like procs is because, in the Powers system, procs are like separate powers that have their own flag, which I think very very few (if any) are flagged not to notify mobs.

This is great to know; I thought that the flag not to alert mobs and the fact that the attack did no other effects were working in tandem to prevent aggro. That changes a lot.

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Monos King
Update on Stun with Flash Arrow

[WindDemon21]

Give flash arrow 75% -range 🙂

[Luminara]

57 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

I never suggested restoring -res to acid arrow would be an improvement. I am suggesting that it is appropriate.

 

We're at a point at which it doesn't matter if it would be appropriate.  The reason for that is simply that TA has always required players to put more work into playing the set than they would have to invest in playing other sets, and that's kept it at the bottom of the barrel.  People don't want to play TA because it's always been too much damn work for too little reward.

 

That's why the -Res was moved to Disruption.  There's no loss of AoE debuff, and it does it in one power usage instead of two.  That's what @Captain Powerhouse is aiming for with his changes to TA.  Cut down on the amount of work the player has to do and increase the reward for what they choose to do.

 

The -ToHit in Flash Arrow was increased so TA players wouldn't have to use two or three powers to provide mitigation comparable to other sets.

 

The -Damage in PGA was increased for the same reason.

 

Disruption being allowed to stack was removed to balance it against other sets after the -Res from Acid was moved and the target cap increased to 16.

 

The -Res in Entangling was added to compensate TA players for losing the option to stack Disruption.

 

Acid had -Special added to give it more utility and versatility in place of having one purpose in the eyes of players, that being little more than a second AoE source of -Res (and a poor one at that, with a pitifully small AoE radius).  The radius was also increased so the power would have more impact in-game, rather than being an AoE with such a small radius that it only affected whatever was humping the primary target's leg.

 

The -Recharge from Entangling was moved to Glue and increased, and again, this was done so players wouldn't have to use multiple powers to achieve their goal.

 

Ice was modified to make the power more than a bog standard Hold, which lacked flavor or versatility.  The Hold duration was reduced accordingly to maintain balance, and to promote its use as more than just a proc mule or just a Hold that you use until you have enough slots and other powers to remove it from your tray.

 

EMP Arrow was changed in multiple ways because it's never been particularly useful as anything more than a panic button, whereas now it's useful as much more.

 

Every change to TA went through multiple iterations and months of work, all with the goal of making a TA player's life easier and more enjoyable.  Less work, more reward.

I doubt the -Res is going back to Acid, even in single-target format.  I doubt the -Res will be removed from Entangling.  There are still some improvements which could be made, such as the -5 Endurance in Disruption being replaced with anything useful, or taking another look at EMP Arrow and possibly doing something other than a copy of Faraday Cage for teammates/pets only.  But most of what's here is going to go live, because the changes @Captain Powerhouse made accomplished the goals he set, those being less work for the player and more parity with other debuffing sets.  What matters is that the set is vastly improved from what it always had to settle for.  It's stronger, more versatile, more capable and easier to use.  Good job, CP.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

Give flash arrow 75% -range 🙂

 

-Range was tested in a previous round of TA changes.  It's brokenly easy to game.  Definitely not happening with TA, or likely any ranged set of any kind.

[4th.survivor]

3 minutes ago, Monos King said:

My apologies, as I noted, I saw that you were already agreeing with just swapping Disruption Arrow and Acid Arrow's effects but I just wanted to rebuke that statement before continuing, in the event someone else had a similar stance. Aside from the Flash Arrow portion and -def on entangling arrow, I enjoy your current proposals.

no worries, it's gonna take a few back and forths to get there

 

 

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

We're at a point at which it doesn't matter if it would be appropriate.  The reason for that is simply that TA has always required players to put more work into playing the set than they would have to invest in playing other sets, and that's kept it at the bottom of the barrel.  People don't want to play TA because it's always been too much damn work for too little reward.

 

....

 

Every change to TA went through multiple iterations and months of work, all with the goal of making a TA player's life easier and more enjoyable.  Less work, more reward.

I doubt the -Res is going back to Acid, even in single-target format.  I doubt the -Res will be removed from Entangling.  There are still some improvements which could be made, such as the -5 Endurance in Disruption being replaced with anything useful, or taking another look at EMP Arrow and possibly doing something other than a copy of Faraday Cage for teammates/pets only.  But most of what's here is going to go live, because the changes @Captain Powerhouse made accomplished the goals he set, those being less work for the player and more parity with other debuffing sets.  What matters is that the set is vastly improved from what it always had to settle for.  It's stronger, more versatile, more capable and easier to use.  Good job, CP.

I understand that and appreciate the insights you've presented in the thread and keeping in course. But then why have feedback threads?

Especially when I can demonstrate that these changes are actually going to make me work just as hard keeping all these debuffs on an AV since Acid Arrow and Entangling and Disrupting are now a 3 power rotation for maximal effect, whereas before I would never bother with an immobilize against anything higher than a lieutenant. This defeats the goal of power consolidation.  I am being saved from having to fire acid arrow in a mob situation only, except I might still want to against +4's (so it's a wash), while entangling now enters play in my single target rotation (inflating it).

[KaizenSoze]

30 minutes ago, Trickshooter said:

Effects like -Perception are not inherently immune to aggro, but rather every power that causes these types of effects are individually flagged not to notify mobs. So adding a single-target stun to Flash Arrow (which I don't think is necessary) would not make it suddenly generate aggro. It would have to have that flag changed to "Always" for that to happen. The reason this sort of thing happens with effects like procs is because, in the Powers system, procs are like separate powers that have their own flag, which I think very very few (if any) are flagged not to notify mobs.

Interesting, so the stun does not guarantee aggro. Learned something new.

 

Either way, to me Flash Arrow is the cornerstone power of the revamp. I want it to work in a predictable manner.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

But then why have feedback threads?

 

Find bugs, tweak numbers, consider reverting changes back to original.

 

5 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

Especially when I can demonstrate that these changes are actually going to make me work just as hard keeping all these debuffs on an AV since Acid Arrow and Entangling and Disrupting are now a 3 power rotation for maximal effect, whereas before I would never bother with an immobilize against anything higher than a lieutenant.

 

That cycle you're using is 3 powers, not 7 or 8.  And that's what it used to be for TA.  Fighting an AV?  Well, Flash every 45-50 seconds, Glue for the tiny -Recharge and slight bit of -Movement every 25 seconds, PGA for a little -Damage every 18 seconds, Acid every 18 seconds, Disruption every 25-28 seconds, OSA when it's up so you can feel like you're adding something more than eye candy, EMP when it's up so you can actually say you brought -Regen to the fight... oh, and some attacks when you can, if you're not too busy shooting Entangling so there's a giant freaking net to announce to the team that, despite what it looks like, you actually are using powers and trying to contribute.

 

That's AV fights as a TA now, right now, today.  We're shooting everything we have, then looking around to see if there's a kitchen sink to shoot.  That's not exaggeration, it's the reality of being a TA on the servers right now.  Every single one of us who's been playing TA since 2005 can attest to this.  We'd rather bring a petless mastermind to an AV fight than a TA, because at least then, no-one would be disappointed or resentful of how little we're contributing, despite working our asses off.

 

You're not doing more work by adding Entangling to your rotation.  Your rotation before these changes is "is it recharged?  use it".  Several powers have longer durations in these changes, which means you don't have to use them as often.  Several powers are significantly stronger, which means you don't have to use every power.  And if those three powers are all you need to contribute and be effective as a debuffer in an AV fight, you shouldn't be complaining, you should be shouting in joy.  You used 3 powers, instead of 7 or 8.  Break out the champagne and caviar, you just made the big league.

 

26 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

This defeats the goal of power consolidation.

 

And the stat improvements and/or additional debuffs added to Flash Arrow, PGA, Disruption, Acid and Ice completely reverse that defeat.

 

You don't have to use every power now.  Not on little +0/x1 spawns, not on +2/x4 spawns, not even on AVs.  You have more flexibility than you had before.

You don't have to use Entangling.  It's extra.  You don't have to use Flash if you use PGA, or PGA if you use Flash.  Either one will provide sufficient mitigation to allow you to get on with the business of kicking ass.  You don't have to use Acid on PGA-Slept critters and break the Sleep in order to reach 40% -Res, you can just Disruption.  You don't have to use Acid + Disruption when you drop OSA, you can just use Disruption.

 

You say you're going to have to spend more time debuffing to compensate for having different effects in different powers, but I'm seeing less time spent.  I'm seeing half as many power usages necessary to stay alive.  I'm seeing half as many to increase DPS.  I'm seeing half as many to bring the pain to AV fights.  I'm seeing more choices in how I use my TA powers, less requirement that I use more of them to do almost as much as other sets do with fewer powers, and a hell of a lot more time I can spend blasting or controlling or monitoring my pets.  And I definitely don't see a need to use all of my TA powers as soon as they're recharged, like I see when I'm playing my sub-50 no-set-bonuses TA characters now.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't agree.  I've played TA for too long, and know the mechanics too well, to overlook the enormous improvement to quality of life these changes will bring, to feel that "having" to use Entangling to stack 20% -Res on top of the 40% I can apply with one power is a bad thing, to consider it a bad thing if I can throw in with a team going up against an AV and actually contribute, maybe even with only 3 powers instead of 7 or 8 (i'd go 4, maybe bump it up to 5 if people are struggling).

 

49 minutes ago, 4th.survivor said:

I am being saved from having to fire acid arrow in a mob situation only, except I might still want to against +4's (so it's a wash), while entangling now enters play in my single target rotation (inflating it)

 

You're being saved from having to use every power at every opportunity because the debuffs were too weak, the durations too short and the recharge times too long, and still having your ass handed to you.  You're being saved from feeling useless because you brought TA instead of anything else.  You're being saved from having to wait for OSA or EMP to recharge because nothing else in your quiver does much to keep you or your team alive.  But you can view it at as net loss, that's your prerogative.

[4th.survivor]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Find bugs, tweak numbers, consider reverting changes back to original.

 

 

That cycle you're using is 3 powers, not 7 or 8.  And that's what it used to be for TA.  Fighting an AV?  Well, Flash every 45-50 seconds, Glue for the tiny -Recharge and slight bit of -Movement every 25 seconds, PGA for a little -Damage every 18 seconds, Acid every 18 seconds, Disruption every 25-28 seconds, OSA when it's up so you can feel like you're adding something more than eye candy, EMP when it's up so you can actually say you brought -Regen to the fight... oh, and some attacks when you can, if you're not too busy shooting Entangling so there's a giant freaking net to announce to the team that, despite what it looks like, you actually are using powers and trying to contribute.

 

That's AV fights as a TA now, right now, today.  We're shooting everything we have, then looking around to see if there's a kitchen sink to shoot.  That's not exaggeration, it's the reality of being a TA on the servers right now.  Every single one of us who's been playing TA since 2005 can attest to this.  We'd rather bring a petless mastermind to an AV fight than a TA, because at least then, no-one would be disappointed or resentful of how little we're contributing, despite working our asses off.

 

You're not doing more work by adding Entangling to your rotation.  Your rotation before these changes is "is it recharged?  use it".  Several powers have longer durations in these changes, which means you don't have to use them as often.  Several powers are significantly stronger, which means you don't have to use every power.  And if those three powers are all you need to contribute and be effective as a debuffer in an AV fight, you shouldn't be complaining, you should be shouting in joy.  You used 3 powers, instead of 7 or 8.  Break out the champagne and caviar, you just made the big league.

 

 

And the stat improvements and/or additional debuffs added to Flash Arrow, PGA, Disruption, Acid and Ice completely reverse that defeat.

 

You don't have to use every power now.  Not on little +0/x1 spawns, not on +2/x4 spawns, not even on AVs.  You have more flexibility than you had before.

You don't have to use Entangling.  It's extra.  You don't have to use Flash if you use PGA, or PGA if you use Flash.  Either one will provide sufficient mitigation to allow you to get on with the business of kicking ass.  You don't have to use Acid on PGA-Slept critters and break the Sleep in order to reach 40% -Res, you can just Disruption.  You don't have to use Acid + Disruption when you drop OSA, you can just use Disruption.

 

You say you're going to have to spend more time debuffing to compensate for having different effects in different powers, but I'm seeing less time spent.  I'm seeing half as many power usages necessary to stay alive.  I'm seeing half as many to increase DPS.  I'm seeing half as many to bring the pain to AV fights.  I'm seeing more choices in how I use my TA powers, less requirement that I use more of them to do almost as much as other sets do with fewer powers, and a hell of a lot more time I can spend blasting or controlling or monitoring my pets.  And I definitely don't see a need to use all of my TA powers as soon as they're recharged, like I see when I'm playing my sub-50 no-set-bonuses TA characters now.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't agree.  I've played TA for too long, and know the mechanics too well, to overlook the enormous improvement to quality of life these changes will bring, to feel that "having" to use Entangling to stack 20% -Res on top of the 40% I can apply with one power is a bad thing, to consider it a bad thing if I can throw in with a team going up against an AV and actually contribute, maybe even with only 3 powers instead of 7 or 8 (i'd go 4, maybe bump it up to 5 if people are struggling).

 

 

You're being saved from having to use every power at every opportunity because the debuffs were too weak, the durations too short and the recharge times too long, and still having your ass handed to you.  You're being saved from feeling useless because you brought TA instead of anything else.  You're being saved from having to wait for OSA or EMP to recharge because nothing else in your quiver does much to keep you or your team alive.  But you can view it at as net loss, that's your prerogative.

It seems I'm unable to offer feedback without attacking the entire idea or reverting back to the existing model, as you say.  That's not what my posts have been in reference to, so if that's how you take it than sure, lambast me.

I think there should be room to consider something that incorporates the changes being made while retaining consistency and familiarity, and it seems there is some consensus on this.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, 4th.survivor said:

lambast me

 

I didn't.  My responses were considered, polite and in earnest.  You dislike specific changes and want them changed again.  I'm pointing out to you that even if you choose to use TA the way you outline after these changes, you're still ten times better off than you would be with the current version of TA on the servers, and that your preferred changes aren't necessary.

 

Look, at no point is a beta feedback thread about proposing complete power redesigns.  We're not here to rebuild the set according to our preferences.  Yes, your feedback matters and it's important to post it, but asking for effects to be moved to different powers so you don't have to change your rotation isn't feedback.  And that is what you're doing.  You're insisting that using the powers as they exist in the beta will cost you more time, but they won't unless you choose to spend that time.  You're ignoring that you have that choice.  You're ignoring the duration changes.  You're ignoring the debuff strengths.  You're focusing entirely on "I have to use all of these powers to do this and it's going to cost me time", and not admitting that you don't have to use all of those powers and that it could save you time.

 

You responded to my post in less than five minutes.  That suggests that you didn't stop to digest what I said, you just decided I wasn't listening and you closed yourself off to anything further.  I am listening.  I am discussing.  I'm emphasizing things that you aren't addressing or accounting for in your comments about the changes.  Read them again, please, and spend more than five minutes so I can at least have some assurance that you're considering what I'm saying.

[Zed]

Tested Tactical Arrow yesterday since i have an archery/TA blaster already.

 

Apparently the oil slick patch is interacting with itself:

Quote

[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Tank Smasher off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Tank Smasher off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Super Stunner off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Metal Swiper off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Oil Slick off their feet with your Oil Slick!
[04:55] Oil Slick:  You knock Super Stunner off their feet with your Oil Slick!

 

Obviously it doesn't move, doesn't make the knockdown sound when doing so but that's pretty funny.
 

It is also interesting to note Oil Slick knockdown effect is logged into Damage Inflicted channel, but when lit, a new Fire entity (immune to Oil Slick knockdown !) is created.
This one actually holds the damage but it is written in Pets Damage channel.
The slippery effect of Oil Slick is still active while Fire is up and both dissapear at the same time.

Unfortunately the ingame power info doesn't make any mention of the summonned pseudo-pets, and most likely a pseudo-pet summonning another pseudo-pet when lit up, nor that it's a Fire DoT damage... (someone said petception ?) Just a simple -MaxRunSpeed, Fire damage. I was expecting a movement slow similar to Rain of Fire and the others here but it seem to do its job.

 

For anyone wondering how procs acts on this power:

Procs on Oil Slick do *nothing* until it starts burning... so you know what to do if you want to take advantage of them !

Then it seem to be a chance per tick of Fire damage.

 

Full combat log enclosed for reference.

Active slotting on Oil Slick: Artillery: Dam/End, Dam/Rech, Acc/Dam, End/Rech/Range, Bombardment: Chance for Fire dmg, Annihilation: Chance for -Res.

blaster_ta_oilslick_log_2810200455.txt

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, Zed said:

The slippery effect of Oil Slick is still active while Fire is up and both dissapear at the same time.

Unfortunately the ingame power info doesn't make any mention of the summonned pseudo-pets, and most likely a pseudo-pet summonning another pseudo-pet when lit up, nor that it's a Fire DoT damage

 

All of that is normal for OSA.

 

5 minutes ago, Zed said:

Procs on Oil Slick do *nothing* until it starts burning

 

The two procs you used were exclusive to the OSBurn pseudo-pet, so they couldn't activate until OSBurn was spawned.  Try Defense Debuff procs if you want to see something happening before the slick is ignited.  The -Def procs should check at cast, then once every ten seconds until the power expires (cast, 10s, 20s, 30s followed by immediate despawn, if it checks at 30s at all), including when the slick is burning.

[Monos King]

Ok, so, here's a fun observation.

 

 

Exactly like ordinary resistance, debuff resistance resists resistable -res. Looks like the tags need to be hit with the unresistable tag, unless this was intentional. If it was intentional, I do think it needs to not be, this isn't quite what I was expecting. 

[Blackfeather]

8 hours ago, Trickshooter said:

I've been aware of incoming improvements for about 6 months, I think. Not everything went in the direction I would have gone, but overall I'm very happy to see what has been done. Wish I could say I had more to do with it, but I haven't played much, if at all, in the last couple of months. My job suddenly changed and I have a lot more responsibilities now, lost about 60 lbs and got engaged, so life is kind of getting in the way of video game time. 😅 Hope to get some time to add more thoughts and search for bugs soon-ish.

Oh, congratulations! Hopefully the feel of these improvements'll gel well. 🙂

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Exactly like ordinary resistance, debuff resistance resists resistable -res. Looks like the tags need to be hit with the unresistable tag, unless this was intentional. If it was intentional, I do think it needs to not be, this isn't quite what I was expecting. 

It's exactly what I was expecting.

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It's exactly what I was expecting.

That is good to know. Have you tested the differences in AV ability to hit using Flash Arrow vs using Flash Arrow + Acid Arrow?

[Replacement]

Um.

 

Am I getting that people would be happier if we just... Swapped the name/fx of Disruption and Acid Arrows?

[Monos King]

49 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Am I getting that people would be happier if we just... Swapped the name/fx of Disruption and Acid Arrows?

Yes, but it is a minor thing so if it appeases everyone I don't see any reason not to do that. If it doesn't happen, TA players will still play TA, and if it does the same will happen, so it's not that big a deal.

 

More importantly though...

 

Currently we have from this power, zero affect on improving the survivability against 90% of bosses, lieutenants, and some elite bosses. And on those it does have affect on will resist the affect to the point it is trivial - which applies to all attributes of Acid Arrow. Fighting against a level 54 AV on a level 51 mastermind, archvillain to-hit went from 40.16 to 39.92. This is a difference of a mere 0.24 to-hit from something offering -30%. It would be more effective to actually just give Flash Arrow or any other debuff in the set an increase in values of something as low as 2.5, this would make them more effective than what Acid Arrow is offering at this moment factoring in the Rank and Resistance to Resistance isssues noted thus far. 

 

Of course, this is exactly what ordinary resistance debuffs already have to go through, and similarly just increasing an attacks damage would definitely do more than looking at it's influence under -resistance. If it were not for the fact this is the only source of -debuff res, and the fact that a large amount of enemies are simply unaffected by the survival increasing element of Acid Arrow, these wouldn't be as much of an issue. But if the goal is to make the debuffs empowered by Acid Arrow more effective, then them not being made much more effective or not at all more effective when they are most needed to be exactly that (mob of hostiles, fighting AV/GMs with a ton of health) isn't too helpful. When we actually need Acid Arrow most, it isn't doing anything, so I would think it should be made unresistable in exchange for lower values, perhaps. Then it wouldn't be as much of a loss that Lieutenants-EBs aren't much affected (to-hit wise), because AV/GMs actually are.

 

Let it be clear the issue is still primarily the fact that not enough enemies can be significantly affected by Acid Arrow's -to hit changes. Everything else is somewhat a byproduct, and this just reveals another group that is not affected significantly.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Monos King

[4th.survivor]

33 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I didn't.  My responses were considered, polite and in earnest.  You dislike specific changes and want them changed again.  I'm pointing out to you that even if you choose to use TA the way you outline after these changes, you're still ten times better off than you would be with the current version of TA on the servers, and that your preferred changes aren't necessary.

Okay, let's reset.  I agree, the powerset is better off with the changes, in case that was in doubt.

 

35 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Look, at no point is a beta feedback thread about proposing complete power redesigns.  We're not here to rebuild the set according to our preferences.  Yes, your feedback matters and it's important to post it, but asking for effects to be moved to different powers so you don't have to change your rotation isn't feedback.  And that is what you're doing.  You're insisting that using the powers as they exist in the beta will cost you more time, but they won't unless you choose to spend that time.  You're ignoring that you have that choice.  You're ignoring the duration changes.  You're ignoring the debuff strengths.  You're focusing entirely on "I have to use all of these powers to do this and it's going to cost me time", and not admitting that you don't have to use all of those powers and that it could save you time.

I am not proposing power redesigns. New mechanics are being introduced to a 20 year old game. Powers are being reworked in an effort to boost their performance.  In the process, icons have changed and the function of specific powers have changed entirely (perhaps in ways we are still coming to understand).  It strikes me as ironic that proposals which incorporate these benefits while adhering to the original vision of a game rebranding itself Homecoming are considered to be too far afield for discussion.

To address your criticism of my rationale, I didn't feel it was necessary to state my full repertoire when breaking down my power rotation against an AV because I believe most TA's probably do the same thing on the current live build - ensure that acid arrow and disrupting arrow are up immediately for full -res and that these conditions are refreshed and constant, and then work through their ancillary powers to provide additional, less impactful, heavily resisted benefits throughout the duration of the fight while contributing DPS as best as they're able.  In the same way that a scrapper would make sure they are hitting with their two highest damage or highest DPA single target attacks as soon as they recycle, and then working their utility and lesser damaging attacks inbetween as needed.  On the test build, my approach is much the same. You can point out that I'm choosing to reintroduce complexity into my rotation by adding in entangling, but you are just as conveniently sidestepping that the secondary effect added to the power is entirely out of line with others of the same sort and that any Defender or /TA user remotely concerned with being effective let alone optimal will be picking up this power and spamming it in their rotation against bosses+, even as power consolidation is a stated design goal of the revamp.

I get that trick arrow is tricky to get right.  Essentially it's a MM or Corr secondary support set being billed as a primary support, and rather than incorporating a theme across its powers it sort of forms a grab bag of effects from other sets like ice, earth, sonic, poison, rad/elec, etc.  You can't just slap crazy magnitudes, durations etc on the set because it pIays with less synergy than something like Sonic for example, which is heavily devoted to one sort of debuff - these are all taken as givens by most players I think. That's one of the reasons making irresistable effects on the debuffs is quite clever, because while we may get a smattering of several different sorts of debuffs, those we do get are more likely to stick (which fits thematically while not smashing the math with the values ascribed to each one). To that end, I still think we should try to get it just right.  Should we expect -20% res in Traps/web grenade, since it's also a t1 immob in a support set? Or -13% res in Blaster/Tac Arrow/electrified net arrow, the same secondary effect at blaster scale in virtually the same power/set at blaster schedule?  The answer to both those questions is and probably should remain 'No,' but the dissonance this causes with Trick Arrow/entangling arrow is undeniable.  The proposed change as it stands actually makes better sense as a different power entirely, despite this not being the place to propose complete redesigns (which I am not).  It would fit better as something like Sonic Arrow, a 20% res debuff arrow patterned after Sonic/sonic siphon, which it more closely resembles. If that was done I doubt anyone would bat an eye at this power, except inevitably I'm sure someone would crawl out of the work wailing that they had their t1 single target immob taken away.

And the reason it's annoying is because the effort was expended to do this while there is a perfectly good home for this effect elsewhere in the set, in a power that describes this effect exactly.
 

49 minutes ago, Luminara said:

You responded to my post in less than five minutes.  That suggests that you didn't stop to digest what I said, you just decided I wasn't listening and you closed yourself off to anything further.  I am listening.  I am discussing.  I'm emphasizing things that you aren't addressing or accounting for in your comments about the changes.  Read them again, please, and spend more than five minutes so I can at least have some assurance that you're considering what I'm saying.

Granted.  But as with my exchange with Monos, I find myself being pinned to defend positions I am not interested in defending.  I like the changes, but there are a lot.  I am focusing my efforts on the ones I see as problematic, and that focus has since narrowed.  Please don't take that as me being somehow ungrateful for the full scope of changes presented, or dismissive of the work being done by the team to get to this point, or the struggle of TA/ players who lived with their idiosyncratic bag of tools all this time and are on the cusp of standing in the light of recognition.  I like what we have, I think it can be done better without scrapping what we have, I hope those ideas are given consideration. At some point a conversation moves from broad ideas where there is consensus to areas of specific complexity where there is disagreement. I reject the notion that 'we get what we get,' and am hopeful that if enough fans echo the sentiment, and are able to competently make their case, then they will be heard. I will take the temperature in the room though that I am perhaps past the point of beating a dead horse here, if indeed this is a distraction from uncovering the nuts and bolts of the revamp, and let you have the last word should you wish. Ultimately, the devs will decide what version of trick arrow sees play.

Thanks for reading

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

That is good to know. Have you tested the differences in AV ability to hit using Flash Arrow vs using Flash Arrow + Acid Arrow?

Yes, but I'm not sure what you're expecting from me. The resistable half gets 30-40% stronger than without, but the unresistable half stays the same because unresistable works both ways.

[Wavicle]

Has something changed about how Glue works?

Correct me if I'm wrong, on Live, if a mob that was not hit by Glue when I fired it runs into the glue he then gets caught in it.

On Test it seems like anything not in the Glue when it's fired will not be effected if they run into it. That seems unfortunate.

[arkieboy72472]

4 hours ago, Zed said:

Tested Tactical Arrow yesterday since i have an archery/TA blaster already.

 

Apparently the oil slick patch is interacting with itself:

 

Obviously it doesn't move, doesn't make the knockdown sound when doing so but that's pretty funny.
 

It is also interesting to note Oil Slick knockdown effect is logged into Damage Inflicted channel, but when lit, a new Fire entity (immune to Oil Slick knockdown !) is created.
This one actually holds the damage but it is written in Pets Damage channel.
The slippery effect of Oil Slick is still active while Fire is up and both dissapear at the same time.

Unfortunately the ingame power info doesn't make any mention of the summonned pseudo-pets, and most likely a pseudo-pet summonning another pseudo-pet when lit up, nor that it's a Fire DoT damage... (someone said petception ?) Just a simple -MaxRunSpeed, Fire damage. I was expecting a movement slow similar to Rain of Fire and the others here but it seem to do its job.

 

For anyone wondering how procs acts on this power:

Procs on Oil Slick do *nothing* until it starts burning... so you know what to do if you want to take advantage of them !

Then it seem to be a chance per tick of Fire damage.

 

Full combat log enclosed for reference.

Active slotting on Oil Slick: Artillery: Dam/End, Dam/Rech, Acc/Dam, End/Rech/Range, Bombardment: Chance for Fire dmg, Annihilation: Chance for -Res.

blaster_ta_oilslick_log_2810200455.txt 22.99 kB · 1 download

Are you sure? I could have swore that DEF DEBUFF Procs fire prior to the lighting. Maybe add lady grey and Ach Heel and retest.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Oil Slick itself does not take damage enhancements so it wont proc any proc that comes from a Damage set. It will pass those through to the flames pet.

At the same time, the flames pets does not accept -Defense enhancements so the flames do not proc any proc that comes from a -Def set.

 

Enhancement types that can proc on the oil: -Def and Slow Sets

Enhancement types that can proc on the flames: Damage Sets