Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

This power is pretty much skippable now.  If the -res has to go, add something that is not a Heal resistance as someone said there is very little healing in PvE.

 

I like Acid Arrow now, because it isn't limited to

1) Disruption Arrow is a target location pet, the target macro is nice but I like to see the recharge timer in the tray

2) you can use Acid Arrow in one spot and Disruption Arrow in another, basically targeting multiple groups.

 

If it goes through as that suggestion, the power is entirely worthless.  The only way to redeem it is if you add fire damage; "causes a burning sensation" in the description, fire damage is applied, and now Acid Arrow causes Oil Slick to ignite as the chemicals interact.

Don't skip it. Its extremely powerful. The patch notes are missing its most important effect: -res(debuffs). 

[ryuplaneswalker]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 Entangling Arrow

• Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
• No longer has a -Recharge debuff
• Now applies a 30s -Res debuff

This is okayish, having a power you are forced to take having some use is always beuno.

 

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

•  Flash Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • -ToHit increased from -6.25% to -15%
    • Half this debuff is now irresistible
•  

This being a noticeable amount of to-hit amount helps the set immensely.

 

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 Ice Arrow

• Increased the -Recharge debuff from -12.% to 25%
• Now applies a 60s -Special and -Damage debuff

Does -Special have a real effect in terms of use against AVs? (lets be real, that is the only thing it will matter on much of the time) 

 

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 Poison Gas Arrow

• -Damage debuff now lasts 60 seconds
• -Damage debuff increased from -31.25% to -50%
  • Half this debuff is now irresistible

25% irresistable damage reduction? That seems..overpowered. Is there any source of -damage that isn't resisted? (for Mobs Damage Resists also grant them resistance to -damage effects).

This feels like a terrible idea to have so much of the effect irresistable, imagine a TA user on the Magisterium trial.

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 Disruption Arrow

• Now applies a -MaxEnd debuff and takes Endurance Modification enhancements and sets

Endurance Debuffs are of no value, this change is just irrelevant.

 

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

 EMP Arrow

• Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
• No longer applies -recovery to the caster
• Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
• Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
• This power now adds an ally buff to any ally or pet within the radius of the power (the caster is not affected)
  • 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
  • Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
  • Protection against status effects and knock back

Okay cool nice.

 

Overall good changes, I still wish the set had some way to light Oil Slick Arrow Naively. I have 2 trick arrow characters, A Mercenary MM and a Bots MM, the ability to almost passively ignite Oil Slick Arrow is a night and day change and really should be inherent to the set itself.

1 hour ago, macskull said:

I'm pretty sure that if @Captain Powerhouse were to build Trick Arrow from the ground up, OSA wouldn't exist.

And the set would be far worse off without it, Oil Slick Arrow is the coolest power in the set. Without it is is no different from Poison or Radiation.

 

Now comes my biggest "issue"

 

With the EMpulse and Entangling Arrow Changes..every power is good and will need slotted properly..there aren't enough slots in the game for that!

[Replacement]

This is the part missing from the patch notes, which is pretty huge (to my understanding, debuffs targeting these attributes will get a 40% buff):

[Tath99]

Could the team / informed readers please confirm which powers are intended to be stackable by multiple Trick Arrow character sources?  This is important as:-

 

• the correct powers are identified as being stackable.
• it promotes TA teamplay.
• helps ensure numbers are in ideal range.
• powers aren't bugged.

[Replacement]

85% informed reader: even powers set to "Replace" should stack by different casters.

[Outrider_01]

11 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Don't skip it. Its extremely powerful. The patch notes are missing its most important effect: -res(debuffs). 

What is the effect exactly?  It causes debuffs to not be resisted?  Like it amplifies, read something a few posts up but didn't clarify.

 

Then again, how much effect is really generating to be helpful.  AV and Monsters, sure but its less effective against Lt/Minions cause they are going to be dead before its even useful.  And given how powerful Incarnates and the way people slot their IO bonuses, it doesn't sound like its entirely benefitial given how powerful a group of super heroes before you apply debuffs then the Purple Arrows go up and it just seems trivial so long as your group isn't licking the floor before they faceplant.

 

Ah, I see the picture above.  Never mind.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Outrider_01 said:

Then again, how much effect is really generating to be helpful

You know how when you apply a -20% damage resistance to a target it makes your following damage do 20% more than it normally would (despite whatever the original damage resistance of the target was)?

 

This is the same thing. I dont recall what the numbers are, but a -20% resistance(debuffs) will make all debuffs do 20% more debuffing than they normally would do.

 

Keep in mind, you still need to factor in purple patch.

[WindDemon21]

MAKE GLUE ARROW LOCATION BASED NOT TARGET BASED!

 

*phew*

 

But really, it's so pointless for a LOCATION BASED debuff, but only be usable by casting on a target.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Trick Arrow has 1 gimmick attack, sure its nice but its unreliable if it can't ignite more often.  Even EMP arrow damage is moot, its on a long recharge that sits lonely with the old Blaster nukes recharge in the retirement home.  Even adding all the damage together of every debuff and not counting every tick of Oil Slick, you get numbers rivaling a level 7 blaster.  When you add up the ticks of Oil Slick, then it gets to be nice.

 

Ultimately, a change so that when it ignites would be nice if its unreliable.

 

In what way is OSA unreliable?  The server tick bug which prevented it from igniting was resolved 13-14 years ago.  The base recharge time is known, it's affected by +Recharge, so the actual recharge time with enhancements and global buffs is known, the base damage is known, the damage can be enhanced, it has -10,000% Resistance to Fire and Energy damage, it's not buffing it's own Defense... how is it unreliable?

 

If you're referring to not having an in-set ignition mechanism, that hasn't changed.  There never was one, there never was intended to be one, there never will be one.  TA wasn't designed around igniting OSA, it was designed around debuffing.  And @Captain Powerhouse didn't include a way to ignite OSA as part of the set because that would've significantly altered the balance of the set itself, necessitating further changes.  You really want an auto-igniting OSA?  Fine, turn in your Disruption and Entangling arrows.  That's the kind of redesign that would be required.

 

Trick Arrows is not "Oil Slick Arrow and a bunch of other things".  OSA doing what it does, and being limited in the ways that it is, is a balance point, both in respect to balancing the set as a whole in the context of the game and in regard to other sets, and as a means of balancing the powers in TA against each other.  It's a support set, not a blast set, and asking for the set to hand you a DoT nearly twice as powerful as defender nukes every 40 seconds is out of the boundaries of what it was designed, redesigned and currently intended to do. 

[Doomrider]

23 minutes ago, Replacement said:

This is the part missing from the patch notes, which is pretty huge (to my understanding, debuffs targeting these attributes will get a 40% buff):

Daaaaamn girl. 

[Jimmy]

Just added to the notes for Acid Arrow:

Quote

Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)

Thanks @Bopper!

[Bopper]

18 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

MAKE GLUE ARROW LOCATION BASED NOT TARGET BASED!

 

*phew*

 

But really, it's so pointless for a LOCATION BASED debuff, but only be usable by casting on a target.

Please don't. The proc-ability of targeted patches is nice. Very nice. 

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Bopper said:

Please don't. The proc-ability of targeted patches is nice. Very nice. 

Which they have stated that they are not fans of how procs work anyway in a situation like this. Not that I want to see PPM change at all, but i would much rather have glue arrow be location based and lose some proc effectiveness. Also, TA doesn't have damage in their glue arrow, only blasters. So the only procs are -rech, and one damage proc, not worth forcing it to be target based (which also really screws up placement, and can't hit flyers, and having to use entangle arrow first for flyers is also annoying).

 

So yeah,. it should be location based, not target based. "procs" should not be factored to making a base power MUCH more useful.

[Keen]

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

•  Entangling Arrow
  • Immobilize duration reduced from scale 15 to scale 7
  • No longer has a -Recharge debuff
  • Now applies a 30s -Res debuff

This is way less "entangling" now. -Res is great, but it makes... zero sense? How about giving the power a new name to reflect that it "burns the target's armor" or something?

 

  

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

•  Acid Arrow
  • Debuff radius increased from 8ft to 15ft (damage still has an 8ft radius)
  • -Res debuff moved to Disruption Arrow
  • Now applies a -heal resistance debuff (heals on the target will be less effective)
    • Halved in PvP
  • Now applies a -special resistance debuff (Endurance, ToHit, Regen, Recovery, Recharge Time, and Endurance Discount debuffs against the target will be stronger)
  • Debuff duration increased from 20s to 45s
    • 20s in PvP
  • This power has a new icon

The -heal resistance debuff will be great in Hamidon raids, so thanks for this. Previously, only Poison > Envenom had such an effect. Also -Special resistance debuff looks great.

 

  

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

•  EMP Arrow
  • Can now be slotted with Range enhancements
  • No longer applies -recovery to the caster
  • Half of the -regen debuff now lasts 45 seconds (previously the entire -regen debuff dropped off after 15 seconds, now only half of it does)
  • Hold duration for non-robots reduced by roughly 50%
  • This power now adds an ally buff to any ally or pet within the radius of the power (the caster is not affected)
    • 15% damage resistance to all but Toxic (not enhanceable)
    • Resistance against End Drain and Recovery Debuffs
    • Protection against status effects and knock back

The buff part looks interesting, not sure I'll remove it from my list of skippable powers tho. We'll see 🙂

 

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

So yeah,. it should be location based, not target based.

 

It was, 16 years ago.  It was changed to enemy-targeted for a reason - having to constantly switch between mouse clicking and keyboard pressing for TA was really annoying, distracting and not fun.  You know what's changed in the last 16 years, in regard to that?

Not a thing.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Keen said:

This is way less "entangling" now. -Res is great, but it makes... zero sense? How about giving the power a new name to reflect that it "burns the target's armor" or something?

Either way it's not gonna make sense. It'll either be an immobilize power that inexplicably does -Res, or a -Res power that inexplicably immobilizes. At least with the former there's no new FX work needed.

[Luminara]

Just now, WindDemon21 said:

The ONLY defense is the proc nature

 

No, it isn't.  It's your perspective.  You're perfectly comfortable with requiring every other player to alter play style to suit you, because from your perspective, how you want things is better.  Other players may not agree with your perspective, or how you want things.  From my perspective, Glue is better as an enemy-targeted debuff because it doesn't require players to find, learn and use slash commands, and it allows the player to fluidly move between debuffing and attacking without using those commands.

 

You want it your way.  I think everyone comprehends that.  But the way it is has worked magnificently since TA went live in '05, and you have yet to provide a rationale for altering the functionality of the power.  If you can provide legitimate reasons for changing Glue, please do so.  Legitimate, not "Because I want it this way and everyone else can suck it".

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

No, it isn't.  It's your perspective.  You're perfectly comfortable with requiring every other player to alter play style to suit you, because from your perspective, how you want things is better.  Other players may not agree with your perspective, or how you want things.  From my perspective, Glue is better as an enemy-targeted debuff because it doesn't require players to find, learn and use slash commands, and it allows the player to fluidly move between debuffing and attacking without using those commands.

 

You want it your way.  I think everyone comprehends that.  But the way it is has worked magnificently since TA went live in '05, and you have yet to provide a rationale for altering the functionality of the power.  If you can provide legitimate reasons for changing Glue, please do so.  Legitimate, not "Because I want it this way and everyone else can suck it".

Except, if it has worked "magnificently" then it would not be an issue that (I and others i've talked with agreeing that) the power has.

 

And to your logic, then go ahead and explain oil slick arrow, or disruption arrow. To which as mentioned, you can make the power if location based, work THE WAY YOU WANT IT anyway. Your argument is again falling very short.

[Bopper]

38 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

TA doesn't have damage in their glue arrow

Fair point. Counter proposal, make Glue Arrow immobilize the target (overwhelm the target with glue to the point they can no longer move), while also dropping a glue patch at the target's location (excess glue that runs off the immobilized target), affecting nearby foes.

 

This would add more proc options, but also it could allow for reinventing Entangling Arrow as I personally am not a fan that it is a rope that does -resistance. I rather cottage burn Entangling Arrow into something else (now that Immobilize is moved to Glue Arrow, no loss in capability). I suggest replacing Entangling Arrow with Weakening Arrow, a power that acts similar to Weaken Resolve, doing Defense, ToHit and Resistance debuffs.

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Except, if it has worked "magnificently" then it would not be an issue that (I and others i've talked with agreeing that) the power has.

 

It doesn't seem to be an issue, based on the feedback here.  You're the only one complaining about it.

 

5 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

And to your logic, then go ahead and explain oil slick arrow, or disruption arrow. To which as mentioned, you can make the power if location based, work THE WAY YOU WANT IT anyway. Your argument is again falling very short.

 

Those powers were deemed better as location-targeted powers by Castle, working in concert with alpha testers, approved by beta testers and accepted by players on the original servers and here.  There's no argument to fall short.

 

You're dragging this way off topic.  Are you going to test anything?

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

It doesn't seem to be an issue, based on the feedback here.  You're the only one complaining about it.

"I'm the only one looking at this thread and posting about it on the forums right now, not the only one complaining about it" *fixed*

 

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Are you going to test anything?

I have tested it, and is WHY i'm complaining. Losing the ability to place it where you want, ie for placing it at a corner and corner pulling out of LOS so it traps the mob in it is not worth any argument that you've proposed so far.

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Fair point. Counter proposal, make Glue Arrow immobilize the target (overwhelm the target with glue to the point they can no longer move), while also dropping a glue patch at the target's location (excess glue that runs off the immobilized target), affecting nearby foes.

 

This would add more proc options, but also it could allow for reinventing Entangling Arrow as I personally am not a fan that it is a rope that does -resistance. I rather cottage burn Entangling Arrow into something else (now that Immobilize is moved to Glue Arrow, no loss in capability). I suggest replacing Entangling Arrow with Weakening Arrow, a power that acts similar to Weaken Resolve, doing Defense, ToHit and Resistance debuffs.

I liked it for your noticing about entangle arrow, but glue arrow should still be location based for it's ACTUAL use, not for anything ever having to do with procs.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Fair point. Counter proposal, make Glue Arrow immobilize the target (overwhelm the target with glue to the point they can no longer move), while also dropping a glue patch at the target's location (excess glue that runs off the immobilized target), affecting nearby foes.

 

This would add more proc options, but also it could allow for reinventing Entangling Arrow as I personally am not a fan that it is a rope that does -resistance. I rather cottage burn Entangling Arrow into something else (now that Immobilize is moved to Glue Arrow, no loss in capability). I suggest replacing Entangling Arrow with Weakening Arrow, a power that acts similar to Weaken Resolve, doing Defense, ToHit and Resistance debuffs.

 

I'd agree with your proposal, but Glue has a long recharge time, and despite my personal dislike of having Entangling as the T1, it has proven to be useful enough to make me question the viability of a change which limited the player's ability to Immobilize a target the way moving it to Glue would.  Would I like to see Entangling set on fire and thrown into the Laurentian Abyss?  Sure, but not if it means players have an Immob on a 60s recharge, it's too disruptive to lower level play.  It also wouldn't provide any additional utility with the single-target Immob, as Glue's Slow is already sufficient to floor the movement speed of anything except specific critters (Warwolves, Crey tanks, etc), and it's not going to do much on AVs either with the recharge time being what it is.

[PorkTips]

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

MAKE GLUE ARROW LOCATION BASED NOT TARGET BASED!

 

*phew*

 

But really, it's so pointless for a LOCATION BASED debuff, but only be usable by casting on a target.

What? I hate location based powers as it is, I like glue arrow being targeted. I dont need yet another power I have to make a target_location macro for!

[brass_eagle]

Hello all! My first time getting involved in testing on Homecoming, so go easy on me!  However, I'd like to provide some feedback and bugs for a non-buff/debuff set. Trick Arrow has always held a special place since Issue 5 even though it was always a subpar set. (opinion).  To me, the purpose of the set has always  been to be the master-of-debuffs. I am pleased to see a bit of a buff aspect added (EMP Arrow), but more on that later! Let's get into my feedback and thoughts:

 

Entangling Arrow--

 

• It is an immobilize power. It seems to do it's own job still--but as a support set it does need something extra. Res- is just fine. However, immobilize on a single target isn't as powerful as other debuffs outside of rare circumstances, I would make sure not to compromise it.

 

Flash Arrow--

• I like the changes to this. The irresistible part is great! I think that's a great theme for this set.--if this is irresistible vs. +? level enemies then I think it's a worthy change.
• Since this is a spammable power (unlike early toggles like Rad Infection, Darkest Night), make it clear in the description this does not stack from the same caster.

Glue Arrow--

• I've always had a problem  with this power.  It is a poor man's immobilize.  Compared to [Frostbite] from Ice Control it gave less -rech, did not fully immobilize, had less of a radius. 
• Pro: it creates a pet patch via  a target.
• MISSING FROM PATCH NOTES @Jimmy: It seems the -rech was increased from  -%20 to -%40 (comparing live values). I whole heartedly approve of this change as a DEBUFF power. I would argue for more  -rech or another minor secondary effect. DISCUSS!

Ice Arrow [EDIT-Retracted... see @Monos KIng reply page 4]--

• Happy to have a buff (this is not a controller set-- holds plz)
• I do feel like this is the second single-target debuff (entangling arrow) in this set. I can't think of another set that has that.  With the buff this feels more like [Sonic Siphon] or [Corrosive Enzymes] than a power later in the set. The debuff needs to be stronger and less spammable like [Benumb] or something else useful and creative. Maybe small Ice Patch? Or.. I dunno. All I know is I will be grateful for the buff, but think it is wasted on a power that I believe still WILL BE SKIPPED 100% (by me) in its current, buffed state.
•  

Poison Gas Arrow--

• Along the lines of Flash Arrow--the irresistible debuff is great! I don't know the value of it  if people have pointed out it's not resisted anyway unless it works against +3,4,5 enemies. I may have misunderstood that.  
• I would also add something minor: 50% for mag 1 sleep helps for soloing against Lieutenant but hardly affects group play. Or a minor -100% regen or... something else. 

Acid Arrow--

• I've seen the praise for the -res (special) in this thread  (originally not in the patch notes), but I'm hesitant. For the current in-beta , in-game description the usefulness seems to only affect:
  • -/+ToHit
  • Healing
  • -Regen
  • -Recharge
  • -Recovery
  • -End Cost
  • Endurance (?)
• It does not include:
  • Defense
  • Defense Resistance
  • +/-resistance to damage
  • +/-movement speed
  • other debuffs are available
• I don't know how feasible adding the additional things are, but I feel like it should be more universal if it's going to be a pivotal power for the set (I agree it should be in this capacity as a primary DEBUFF set).
• The -end, -endcost do NOT affect disruption arrow. Need more cross testing with other memebers.
• If the gimmick continues, I do think these -res (special debuffs) should be at least 1/2 unresistable. Not sure if that matters. 
• The 15 ft radius vs. 8 ft is a necessary and welcome change, even if nothing else was done. Silly to begin with.

Disruption Arrow--

• -%40 res is good! Taking power away from another power, adding it here is great. repurpose redundancy!
• BUG: The -Max end is NOT WORKING @Jimmy. It is providing MaxEnd to the enemies rather than take away.
• I question the low value / usefulness of the -MaxEnd other than being an IO mule for [Disruption Arrow]. I don't have any suggestions here.

Oil Slick Arrow--

• Is Oil Slick Arrow, I don't want to suggest anything for fear of breaking the finnicky code. Thanks for the enhancements for range.

EMP Arrow--

• The only buff in the set (now--maybe--not forever?). If it is going to be a T9 team buff, it should affect the caster. As of now, it does not affect the shooter. Mez protection and res can be very valuable for support; and as the most offensive set with no sustain, no heal, no other way to protect itself (rad has Heal & AM, Time has Heal, Cold has defense, but also buffs)--the boon is minimal in a team but maximal in solo. 
• {New Point for emphasis}, other sets all have things that affect the caster themselves; [Overgrowth}, [Fulcrum Shift], [Chronoshift], etc... This should affect the caster if it continues to be a buff or the Debuff should be maximal.
• It should be a 50% for mag 2 hold and 50% for mag 1. Not Mag 1, Mag 1. It's pointless (my opinion).

As a main for support, these are my thoughts on a set that was neglected even in its making. It's in a unique position to be (if allowed) the master of debuff, but it needs to be good at that. It has no sustain, and in it's current state the only Buff does not affect the caster.

 

That's my initial thoughts after testing. Please tear them apart; discuss! And be excellent to one another. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by brass_eagle