Focused Feedback: Travel Updates: Base Teleportation, Long Range Teleporter Accolade, Special TP Powers

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

The problem was that the ease of the TP macro actually let people subvert actual gameplay (cheesing out of dying in PvP and Master runs, for example), so it had to go away.

From what I've gathered here, there is a separate input-validation issue that made fixing the problem critical; the 'escape defeat' functionality could have been addressed simply by making the command unusable while in combat, so it was a concern that needed to be resolved, but it wasn't the driver pushing the fix now -- the input-validation issue was. I don't know the specifics of the issue, so I don't know why the HC devs chose to go with such a baroque multi-power solution that appears to retain the enterbasefrompasscode command that presumably has the critical vulnerability fixed instead of just cleaning up the issues with the command directly, and we won't know until it pushes to live and we get more information.

[DoctorDitko]

Yes.

No change to base transporters.

Edited October 28, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[Apparition]

Just now, Keovar said:

I guess I don't really understand how teleporters within bases will work.  My main character is the leader of my SG and she has all available exploration badges besides 'Unabashed', inside the Rikti War Zone ship (is it unobtainable without a raid?).  Will the zone beacons in my base still work for characters who don't also have those badges?   

 

Zone beacons in SG bases have nothing to do with badges, so yes, they'll still work.  Unabashed does require a mothership raid, either the zone version or soon the instanced version.

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

I think it had to do with the order in which the changes were made during the earlier beta builds. Based on some dev chatter in the testing Discord, there's going to be a future patch that consolidates some of the existing transport options to address the "there are too many powers in my trays now" complaints.

Then these changes need to be put off until the consolidation happens.  Otherwise this update is half-done.  Worse even, as they are making consolidation even more difficult by adding even more transport options.

If enterbasefrompasscode needs to end now, fine.  But I'd rather go a few months back on regular travel options and wait for them to roll out new options complete and whole than to get this mess.  Plus, for them to add more travel powers only to reverse that and consolidate them in a future patch later damages their credibility and capability as devs, so if this is really the plan then it would be in their best interests to rethink this approach.

[Apparition]

19 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Then these changes need to be put off until the consolidation happens.  Otherwise this update is half-done.  Worse even, as they are making consolidation even more difficult by adding even more transport options.

If enterbasefrompasscode needs to end now, fine.  But I'd rather go a few months back on regular travel options and wait for them to roll out new options complete and whole than to get this mess.  Plus, for them to add more travel powers only to reverse that and consolidate them in a future patch later damages their credibility and capability as devs, so if this is really the plan then it would be in their best interests to rethink this approach.

Uhhh... who said that it would not be in a future beta patch, before Issue 27 launches?

[QuiJon]

3 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

Well, technically they are replacing an exploit with an actual power. All the powers in the game have charges, recharges, or otherwise get used up.

What would you suggest as a model for the replacement power? Even Rest has a recharge (though, thankfully, much reduced on HC).

First of all no, they are not replacing an "exploit". There is a game mechanic that was supposed to be an admin command for admins that some how was set for players. That is not an exploit, its an oversight perhaps but not an exploit. The exploit is in how people used it. To escape death. 

 

The question comes from the point that they left the command available for use for over a year. It could have been removed instantly. But it was not. Therefore that shows that in and of itself using this power for convenience of travel, role playing etc. was not considered to be breaking any game theory for the devs. 

 

And you are right, powers have controls, endurance costs, recharge rates, interupt times etc. However when you look at what the slash command allowed being the only thing the devs ever defined to us as an exploit was using it in pvp and MoTF to escape death and associated penalties it would make sense then to deisgn the replace to work as closely as possible to the slash command but be unexploitable. So what would i suggest? Easy, a portal drop power just like Orro portal. Only upon clicking this portal you get a prompt just like you do at any public base portal to either enter your base or enter a passcode for another base. You could put it on a 5 minute cool down just like orro and put limits to its use on MoTF and pvp zones that prevent the exploits. 

 

Really simple and not over complex honestly. And either give it to everyone or make it a p2w for like 1m or something affordable. Maybe people have suggested that on this new system that what is the big deal, you can just orro to Talos and all the major trains and tunnels and base portals are there for you. It is just adding one or two more loads. Well they are right. However my question is, if i can still jump to orro and then immediately leave and go to talos and then jump into my base and go wherever i want, what good reason is there to force me to go back to doing that rather then just give us the button to easily skip strait into my base? I still am not playing. I still am safe from attack all you are doing is forcing me to watch 1-2 more load screens to get to where i will have to rely on my travel power to get to my final door for a mission anyway. And for people that have older computers or bad internet adding more load screens is really just a punitive response to fixing this issue. But even for those of us that luck out with few issues, it isnt adding anything to the play time it is only adding load screens.

[Gunrunner]

7 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Well, that's the thing. I don't think the devs are interested in creating a power like that - that'd hew too close to outright replacing the slash command that they restricted in the first place.

But that's exactly what we're asking for.  What almost this entire thread is asking for.  A reasonable-recycle, short-cast base TP that is readily obtainable, and not locked behind infwalls, accolades, or charges.  Similar to, if not exactly the same as, the currently available Oro portal. 

[Lockpick]

I copied my Archery / Ninja Tools blaster over to Test.  Started in AP and got the exploration badges and LRT.  When I was awarded LRT I had a graphic of opening a present like during the Christmas event.  I continued to play the character and at random times this "opening a present" would happen.

 

I'm not sure if it happened because I got LRT or not, but the first instance of it was when I was awarded LRT.  I also had the freebie macro in my tray, which looks like a present.  Not sure if that interacted with the LRT award or not.

[Number Six]

@Lockpick That's a known issue with Shinobi from /Ninja that is fixed internally and I believe should be in the next beta build.

[Gunrunner]

Something occurred to me.  There are public transport hubs, notably the TOUR-5307 "base".  My question to the community at large is thus: are any of these public hubs Dev constructs, or were they all player-built?

 

If it's the latter, then my next statement can be disregarded, and let's move on.  I apologize if I ruffle any feathers with the following conjecture.

 

If it's the former, there we've got a big issue regarding /EBFP.  Not only was the devteam aware of some of the potential abuses of the command, they facilitated it's use!  For a year and a half!  I wish that could be couched in less accusatory terms, but if this is the case, WTF guys?

 

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Gunrunner said:

Something occurred to me.  There are public transport hubs, notably the TOUR-5307 "base".  My question to the community at large is thus: are any of these public hubs Dev constructs, or were they all player-built?

 

 

They were all built by players.

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

Uhhh... who said that it would not be in a future beta patch, before Issue 27 launches?

Point it out to me.

[Nerio72]

I think maybe they want feedback on how the powers are working in beta. This is the path they decided to take and need feedback on how its working.

 

I'm sure they appreciate the ideas on what might work, but that doesn't mean they "should" or "need" to do anything that's suggested. The tone of some of these posts is frankly very disrespectful and I think some people need to take a step back and reflect.

 

And go test some of this out, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

Just my 2 INF.

[GetRidOfWires]

7 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

Too late for that. However, they've given us several replacement options, all of which require some level of investment.

The problem was that the ease of the TP macro actually let people subvert actual gameplay (cheesing out of dying in PvP and Master runs, for example), so it had to go away.

Synapse will no longer take hours again. Everyone can buy or earn ways to get to and from various zones quickly. Though I guess this is the kind of thing we can directly test now. Maybe I'll run a few TFs on Test later and see how much longer it takes compared to Live.

Well, can’t they just disable the command in PVP zones and inside missions? Like /AH is disabled inside a base? That would eliminate both problems without removing it as an option.

[Apparition]

10 minutes ago, GetRidOfWires said:

Well, can’t they just disable the command in PVP zones and inside missions? Like /AH is disabled inside a base? That would eliminate both problems without removing it as an option.

 

No, because there is a far bigger issue at play than just PvP and Master of TF/SF badges.  Not much more can be said until Issue 27 is live.

[Widower]

1 hour ago, Blackbird71 said:

Point it out to me.

Well, if I had to hazard a guess, the bit where it says Build 1, suggesting that there will be more builds later (as there always have been) before the thing goes live, in which, judging by past precedent, pretty much anything can happen.

[Blackfeather]

6 hours ago, QuiJon said:

And so what exactly is the problem with replacing the old slash command with a new power that doesnt have the exploitability of the slash command but 100 percent of the functionality??

 

I mean you sit back and say you dont think they were interested in doing that. Well why not? The one thing missing from this conversation is what were the devs motivations for going this insanely unpopular route? I know that is a very slanted view but lets face facts, for over a year now this discussion has been going on that the slashcommand was 1. not ever intended for general use and that 2. the devs were leaving it available while they sought out a resolution.

 

This indicates to me a few things. First that obviously yes at some point the slash command would be going away in that form. It would because as an instant power it was to ease to exploit as an escape button. (i know other things have come up but since they are not public and i dont know what they are i cant discuss them) But the very idea that these escape buttons had been brought forward and the command was not instantly turned off also indicates that the devs knew of the commands popularity, and DIDNT feel that is broke the game to leave open while they crafted their fix for it.

I'm not here to say whether or not these updates are a net positive or negative for others - clearly people are quite opinionated on that (personally for me though, as someone who avoided using this command? Total win, zero drawbacks). All I've said is it's clear that the devs aren't interested in creating a drop-in replacement power for the /enter_base_from_passcode command, hence the route they went in the first place. I'm afraid that whether or not it's a problem doesn't really matter.

 

Also, something to keep in mind: the devs have left similar things in the past that lingered for some time, and still got rid of them in the end. The duration of something in-game clearly isn't justification enough for them to keep it there. For instance, look at Jimmy's post on the whole disabling of double influence while disabling XP gain. You'll notice a similar echo about how they should have nipped this at the bud, similar to his post about this slash command. In both instances, he's said the team ought to have addressed the problem early, and expressed regret that they did not. It's how it is - the team makes mistakes.

6 hours ago, QuiJon said:

We were being told that the devs were looking for a way to keep something as functional without the exploits.  And when that came to pass the command would be removed. I dont want to act like i am calling out the devs here cause i am not. But the one thing that seems to be missing from this conversation is WHY. For over a year of people using the command, making centeral travel hubs and role players using it for their reindeer games I think it became really obvious to anyone that at its most basic level the slash command was popular and other then pvp and MOTF didnt really break anything. So when you go into a room or whatever and start throwing around ideas on how to fix the slash command issue how do we arrive at this mixed up pool of powers as a fix that wont even allow for the most basic use of the slash command in the first place without committing players to doing extra things or giving up things they do already do. I feel like a bunch of smart guys and gals would have started out with the idea of just "hey orruo portal but opens the base" as the very first idea. It is simple, fills in all the wants and doesnt require a rework of a quarter of a different system mechanic and doesnt require anything new of the players.

I'm going to have to ask for direct citation for that, because the closest statement I can see about this is:

There have been no promises from the devs that they'd create a power that'd be at the level of /enter_base_from_passcode. There have been acknowledgements about its uses for hopping between bases, and that the current base teleporter powers have a long recharge and interrupt time. And of course, they made it very clear that the slash command wasn't going to last in its existing form.

6 hours ago, QuiJon said:

So i feel like to go from that to what they are presenting has to have some reason behind it why they think it is needed to make our lives more difficult (in game anyway) by implementing the changes/fix in this manner. And i would be interested in hearing that logic. After all it is kind of hard to provide feedback if we are told the command represents a certain set of  problems and we are arguing those points and fixes only to find out that the developers were trying to fix an entire different issue.

For the people who decided to use that slash command at least - for me? It's only been made more convenient. It's already been justified by the devs, and a long time back at that - take a read through the linked post and the thread at large. As said, clearly, both from the patch notes here, and official statements there, they're not interested in making anything close to what the /enter_base_from_passcode command was like.

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, Gunrunner said:

But that's exactly what we're asking for.  What almost this entire thread is asking for.  A reasonable-recycle, short-cast base TP that is readily obtainable, and not locked behind infwalls, accolades, or charges.  Similar to, if not exactly the same as, the currently available Oro portal. 

Well, all I can really say to that is...my condolences for relying too heavily on the slash command. It's kind of clear that the dev team's not interested in making something that's a drop-in replacement for the /enter_base_from_passcode command for those use cases you stated.

[Glacier Peak]

10 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

 

 

I feel like this is all you need to read to grasp the direction of our volunteer Homecoming development team:

Quote

On Page 1, Jimmy said:

Base Access

• The GM-only command /enterbasefrompasscode is no longer available for players to use unconditionally, and can now only be used:
  • Within 45 feet of a base portal (including the new summoned portals)
  • Anywhere inside a Supergroup base
  • After using the Base Transporter / Base Teleporter power
    • The command remains available until you move 20 feet from the location you used the power, or if you activate another power
• Two new powers which summon portable base portals have been added, and base teleporter powers have received some improvements (see below for details)

Whatever reasoning or philosophies, past quotes or paraphrasing you can find that has been put out by the team before now to make this get to the beta is irrelevant. Their decision on their server is to move it forward to this stage. The beta stage of testing - for the purpose of soliciting testing and feedback (not subjective opinion for the loudest folks who post the most). 

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Glacier Peak
quoted wrong person

[QuiJon]

55 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Also, something to keep in mind: the devs have left similar things in the past that lingered for some time, and still got rid of them in the end. The duration of something in-game clearly isn't justification enough for them to keep it there. For instance, look at Jimmy's post on the whole disabling of double influence while disabling XP gain. You'll notice a similar echo about how they should have nipped this at the bud, similar to his post about this slash command. In both instances, he's said the team ought to have addressed the problem early, and expressed regret that they did not. It's how it is - the team makes mistakes

The devs clearly considered that people made maps that exemplared them to level 49 as to get bonuses off both the exempt and that partol xp doesnt get used in AE an exploit. However the difference is that they never really asked for input. That change was stealthed into the game by them with no warning that i recall seeing until it was live on the servers. I dont even recall it being in the beta test notes. They have asked us for feedback on this change. We are telling them what we want and why. They are not telling us anything. As i have said, it would be nice to know the general purpose behind punishing us and taking away the utility the slash command offered when it is not needed to fix the exploit to lose it. You keep saying over and over they have no interest in replacing it well then why. Obviously people liked it. It can be done without exploiting anything, with no pay to win any more there is no monetary reason to lock it away from us. 

 

And frankly even if they made a mistake adults own up to them. So lets see a dev say exactly why having instant travel to ones base is a mistake. Sure i get leaving an admin command open was, but the net result what it gave us, why was that a mistake that it can not be replicated now? Why do they feel it is important to make me badge on toons i dont badge, or spend influence on every toon etc, why do i have to hop through all these hoops to be able to avoid watching load screens, which is all this current plan really does, by going this route as has been pointed out, i am being forced to load to a zone i dont want to go to, so i can then load to the base i do want to go to, to then teleport to the zone i want to end up in. Where currently i load to base and go to the zone. Only different is a big pain in the ass setting it all up and then having to watch one extra load screen every time i travel. Seems idiotically stupid imo to punish the players for what you call the dev teams mistakes when the ultimate result is inconsequential to game play. The AE influ nerf i might not have liked or agreed with, but at least you can say it actually had an effect on game play on the servers. This has no effect on our game play just our travel times and load times. 

[Jimmy]

25 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

They have asked us for feedback on this change. We are telling them what we want and why. They are not telling us anything.

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

It's been 4 days.

 

We have jobs.

 

🙂

[QuiJon]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

 

I do get that. My response was not to indicate that we were being ignored but my response was to someone who has responded to several people that it was obvious you all didnt want, for whatever reason, to allow your players to keep the ease of use we had been enjoying. My response was essentially meant to say that the devs have asked us for feedback we are giving it and that if we are not hearing it from the dev team that they wont entertain that wish then it is the option people will keep asking for. 

[Glacier Peak]

... but as it has been reiterated many times by players and developers alike in the past twenty pages of this thread, PvP is not the reason for this change.

[macskull]

22 minutes ago, Keovar said:

SG bases, missions, and arena maps are all instances.  You can stand still in them indefinitely without an AFK & logout timer/  When you log out in an instance, your next login will be at the spot you entered the instance from.  PvP zones are just public zones that happen to include ganking.  Setting a flag one way in a public or instanced zone may have side-effect consequences for the others of its type.

So, /ah does not work in PvP zones either. Would it have been possible to disable /enterbasefrompasscode in PvP zones only? Probably, but the fact they're not doing it should be all the indication anyone needs to tell them this isn't a PvP-based change.

[Glacier Peak]

More General Feedback / Testing Notes: 

• Beta patch notes should say Interrupt time, not Activation time (Thanks @macskull)

 

On 10/24/2020 at 6:44 AM, Jimmy said:

•  Pocket D VIP Teleporter (P2W Power)
  • Recharge time reduced from 30 minutes to 10 minutes
  • No longer affected by global recharge buffs
  • Activation time reduced from 15s to 10s
•  Mission Transporter (P2W Power)
  • Activation time reduced from 15s to 10s

Both powers are described in game as activating in 12 seconds and both were tested in game to activate in 12 seconds. The beta patch notes indicate it should be 10 seconds.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Glacier Peak