Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[AerialAssault]

11 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

What would be artificially inflating someone's play time vs not for you?

 

I feel we differ on this.

 

For me it's having a costume behind 1000 kills vs a story arc where you work with a NPC through the whole arc until the end as it's dying it gives you it's helm and asks you to carry on in thier place.

 

 

The former made me throw up in my mouth a bit. The latter? Yeah, I could get behind that.

[Hero_of_Light]

9 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

The former made me throw up in my mouth a bit. The latter? Yeah, I could get behind that.

Ah, so maybe we don't differ to much.

 

I also don't like generic stuff like that and I'm completely okay with many badges being that, and not costumes/powers/ ect...

 

But I crave and enjoy the later in games, and would love that to be a part of CoH.

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Having more stuff to do wouldn't keep people engaged and inturn cause them to stay around longer?

There's always a very fine balance between more stuff to do and a checklist of chores to get to do the stuff you actually want to do. There's always the danger that the list of things to do is so intimidating that some people will just pick another game. I keep coming back to CoH because we don't have a grind, and I can just instantly hop on to do whatever I like instead of thinking of the stuff I "have to do" before that. For me, at least, the type of grind you have in WoW and many other MMOs fosters a short term commitment: I'll play a lot in the short to medium term, then get frustrated at how much of my precious game time is going to activities I don't actually enjoy, quit and never come back. 

 

That said, while I don't care for unlocks that basically boil down to "spend a bunch of time doing something simple", I wouldn't mind mastery sort of achievements. Spending a bunch of time getting better at something so that you can complete a skill based thing is much more satisfying.

 

But that's me, though. Different strokes for different folks.

[Hero_of_Light]

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

There's always a very fine balance between more stuff to do and a checklist of chores to get to do the stuff you actually want to do. There's always the danger that the list of things to do is so intimidating that some people will just pick another game. I keep coming back to CoH because we don't have a grind, and I can just instantly hop on to do whatever I like instead of thinking of the stuff I "have to do" before that. For me, at least, the type of grind you have in WoW and many other MMOs fosters a short term commitment: I'll play a lot in the short to medium term, then get frustrated at how much of my precious game time is going to activities I don't actually enjoy, quit and never come back. 

 

That said, while I don't care for unlocks that basically boil down to "spend a bunch of time doing something simple", I wouldn't mind mastery sort of achievements. Spending a bunch of time getting better at something so that you can complete a skill based thing is much more satisfying.

 

But that's me, though. Different strokes for different folks.

I see where you come from. I also don't always want a crazy grind like most mmos have, but I do want some thing to play towards (like that story arc example I gave)

Edited November 8, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

There's always a very fine balance between more stuff to do and a checklist of chores to get to do the stuff you actually want to do. There's always the danger that the list of things to do is so intimidating that some people will just pick another game. I keep coming back to CoH because we don't have a grind, and I can just instantly hop on to do whatever I like instead of thinking of the stuff I "have to do" before that. For me, at least, the type of grind you have in WoW and many other MMOs fosters a short term commitment: I'll play a lot in the short to medium term, then get frustrated at how much of my precious game time is going to activities I don't actually enjoy, quit and never come back. 

 

That said, while I don't care for unlocks that basically boil down to "spend a bunch of time doing something simple", I wouldn't mind mastery sort of achievements. Spending a bunch of time getting better at something so that you can complete a skill based thing is much more satisfying.

 

But that's me, though. Different strokes for different folks.

 

On a side note, we have badges, like over 1500 of them, and people are more than happy to bash their heads in getting all of them.  🤪

[Solarverse]

An Open Letter to the Original Poster:

Note: This is personal opinion given through personal experience.

Let's go back to when MMORPG's first came out. Well, I take that back, since I did not play MMORPG's when they first came out. However, I did play Asheron's Call before playing City of Heroes. The main attraction to (I am going to go out on a limb and say most even though I do not have statistical facts, all I have is experience and age) most of the MMORPG gamer type of players was that you had to put time in to these games in order to achieve the things that you wanted. It was a different world then because you simply did not have the same type of open world gaming on consoles back then. These types of games only existed on computers. It was a gaming world that most kids could not get in to because well...let's be honest, it was too difficult for your average kid. Sure, there we some unique kids who were well above their intellect level for their age who could play these types of games and do them well, but honestly, it was not extremely common. Not every kid could sit through them and learn them or even had an interest in them the way MMORPG type of adults could. MMORPG's caught the attention of a particular type of people who enjoyed a strategical and co-op type of environment set in a real and breathing world filled full of insane challenges, difficulties and adventures.

Then came Star Wars Galaxies. A truly challenging game filled full of even more insane challenges...especially if you wanted to be a Force Sensitive. Nothing was handed to you, there was no way to get anything you wanted without a challenging and difficult road ahead; and that is what pulled these same types of players to these types of games. People burned for the challenge and people took pride in their accomplishments and they were admired and respected by their fellows players for reaching these accomplishments. These games were not made for everybody, especially not for people who wanted to max out and get everything they can in less than a day. It took some people over a year to finally unlock Jedi and it took hard work and dedication to become powerful and established no matter what profession you decided to go with. MMORPG's by their very design and nature was like this and that is what drew people like me in to them. It took a certain level of insanity for one to enjoy games like this and even more so; it took hard work, a lot of time and dedication. It was something to be proud of.

Games like this held players for extremely long periods of time and had a very loyal fan base. People did not leave and then come back only when new content was released but instead they played the entire time while new content simply drew in more new players.

Then comes City of Heroes two years later. It was a challenge then, it was not exactly easy and face planting and getting high amounts of debt were common. Nothing was handed to you and if you wanted to get the goodies in the game, you had to work for it. The major differences were, you got to fully customize your character and the way they looked straight out of the gate rather than working to get the drops that had the gear that fits the way you wanted to look. City of Heroes was considerably easier than Asheron's Call or Star Wars Galaxies, but it was still the type of game that simply just was not meant for everybody, you had to have that same dedicated mind that craved a challenge and you still had to have that certain level of insanity to play it.

Suddenly, people who tried playing these games but were not having any fun playing them due to the difficulty and challenging aspect of an MMORPG started hitting the forums; and these vocal minority hit them hard. They endlessly and relentlessly complained about how hard it was, demanding that things be made easier so that they too could enjoy these games. They were the minority yet they were also the very loudest and most annoying players in the MMORPG world. They were met with players like me telling them that if they do not enjoy the game, perhaps they would be happier playing a different game and were told that the changes they were demanding would take away from the enjoyment of the game for everyone else. They did not care about the negative effects it would have on others who enjoyed the game as is and they threatened the very core of what made these games great for people like me.

Eventually the Developers of these games caved in and gave them what they wanted by making the games ridiculously easier. All of the things the rest of us had to work hard to accomplish, these players who wanted things easy for them got for zero to very little effort. It was a slap in the face to players who were like me (and back then there were a lot more people like me than there were people like them) because what we enjoyed about MMORPG's were stolen (I say stolen because the type of game that they were ceased to exist and were replaced with easy mode versions of what we once loved) from us and practically handed to them on a silver platter.

Games like Star Wars Galaxies changed and they started handing out Jedi as a Class that you could play at level 1 rather than working hard to unlock Force Sensitives. They completely changed the game and the mechanics of the game and as a result they suffered greatly in their population when players like myself left the game in droves that almost closed the game down due to lack of subscribers. Other games started going free to play and I personally believe that this happened because their customers who were happy to pay, left the games in a large enough number that companies had no choice in order to stay afloat. Now, they did not admit that, however, admitting that they were wrong would be a first for any gaming company. No gaming company ever admits that something they did was wrong and a bad idea, they always put the blame on the players. These gaming companies caved in to the players who wanted these games to revolve around them, instead of them learning to play the games as they were or finding some other game that is more to their liking. So the people who liked the games challenging and stayed because they were presented a challenge left the games and were replaced by players who wanted the games changed to fit what they expected the games to be.

MMORPG's were made a certain way to attract a certain type of player, but instead caved in to the people who hated the games and wanted them changed to be made easier and I believe the MMORPG companies suffered greatly for making that huge mistake...which brings us to modern day.

Now we have players who prefer things their way rather than how the game was originally intended to be and they far out number the players like myself who enjoyed the games for how they were intended to be. Not only do these players not want the game to be more challenging or have some type of gate behind rewards, they will literally ostracize you for suggesting that the game should go back to the old ways. Making such a suggestion will get you remembered for all the wrong reasons.

This is the history of MMORPG's in general as I personally have experienced them. This is what I have witnessed with my own two eyes throughout the bazzilion years that I have been playing MMORPG's. This is what players like me have lost and this is why players like me have been pushed aside and even demonized for expressing how we feel about it. In fact, I imagine that I will get a bit of flack just for typing out my experience in the gaming world even though this is the absolute truth from my personal perspective. Players like me have lost what brought us to the MMORPG world to begin with and have been pushed aside for an easier and more inclusive gaming community. The difference is, it simply no longer includes people like myself in the way that we once loved them. Keep in mind, somebody else may have a completely different perspective on how things have changed, but this perspective is mine, so take it with a grain of salt since I am not backing this with any hard numbers but rather sharing my personal views.

For players who are like me, the biggest slap in the face is when people say, "Then go play it the old way and grind for what you want, and we will do it our way." People just really do not understand how insulting that line can be sometimes...we simply have to overlook those types of comments and move on.

People of those times got the games changed to what they are today....and by doing so they took a big part of the games away from players like me. Not all of the changes were bad, in fact some of them were downright awesome changes, however, the base foundation of what MMORPG's used to be is long since gone.

So I truly understand where your mind is OP and where you are coming from, I truly truly do. However, there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it because you simply cannot ever go back to the way things were. You cannot tell people that all of a sudden out of the blue they can no longer have the things they want unless they work for it. The games have already lost a great number of players when they made the games easier for other players. Those players are gone and will never return even if the game is reverted back to its original foundations of what they once were. Those people are gone and I have had to say goodbye to a great deal amount of them, It's simply too late and the damage has been done. So if you revert it back to the way it once was, all you will do is lose the players we have now and these games will have nobody left playing them. None of us wants that because the other thing that makes MMORPG's so wonderful, is the people that you play them with. Without the people, we might as well go back to console gaming.

I hope this helps you to understand why things have changed to how they currently are and why we can never go back to how they once were. If you love the game, you must nurture what the game is today rather than trying to make the game feel more like it once was. That is the only way City of Heroes will continue to survive. This is my perspective and my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Solarverse

[EmmySky]

There are levels, vet levels, incarnate levels and powers, and badges as well as inf(luence/amy/formation) and merits to grind for.  

 

I really do not understand the recent downpour of 'everyone is leaving the game let us find a reason for the blame' and I don't understand the continuing plea for more grindy stuff.  

 

The people in charge of deciding what, and what not, to add certainly have my vote whether they choose to add gated stuff or not.  As for more gated stuff producing longevity in players, that has been disproven by the sheer numbers of new players who beg for PL or immediately create a farmer for inf.  They dont want to participate in the existing grind and new shinies wont keep them around for more than the minute it takes to burn out that content, too.  

 

I firmly believe any population fluctuations are due to the normal ebb and flow of MMO gaming culture and will peak with new content then dip again.  I think the type of people who will burn out on the grind and leave will not stay appreciably longer just because of new grind.  I think gating things, like costume pieces which can be so integral to character customization, would most likely cause a few people to wander away.  Character customization is the salt and pepper of this game.

 

Between collecting all the badges, making a toon of every powerset combo in every AT and getting them all maxed out, including T4 incarnates, I personally feel we have plenty of grind for the goal-oriented yet non-self-motivated players out there.  Plenty more grind available for folks who want to set their own goalposts and limits.

 

I am not in charge of anything, so if the people who are in charge of stuff choose to add stuff I dont like, oh well, more power to them.  I love this game to the point of obsession and I will continue to play regardless of what is or isnt added.

 

As always, this is an opinion and agree or disagree, we are all still friends here so lets go punch some skulls in the face!

Edited November 9, 2020 by EmmySky
Added 'and merits'.....also words are hard

[Hero_of_Light]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

 

On a side note, we have badges, like over 1500 of them, and people are more than happy to bash their heads in getting all of them.  🤪

As I'm sure everyone would agree, different strokes for different folks.

 

Badges shouldn't be expected to be good enough for everyone.

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

An Open Letter to the Original Poster:

Note: This is personal opinion given through personal experience.

Let's go back to when MMORPG's first came out. Well, I take that back, since I did not play MMORPG's when they first came out. However, I did play Asheron's Call before playing City of Heroes. The main attraction to (I am going to go out on a limb and say most even though I do not have statistical facts, all I have is experience and age) most of the MMORPG gamer type of players was that you had to put time in to these games in order to achieve the things that you wanted. It was a different world then because you simply did not have the same type of open world gaming on consoles back then. These types of games only existed on computers. It was a gaming world that most kids could not get in to because well...let's be honest, it was too difficult for your average kid. Sure, there we some unique kids who were well above their intellect level for their age who could play these types of games and do them well, but honestly, it was not extremely common. Not every kid could sit through them and learn them or even had an interest in them the way MMORPG type of adults could. MMORPG's caught the attention of a particular type of people who enjoyed a strategical and co-op type of environment set in a real and breathing world filled full of insane challenges, difficulties and adventures.

Then came Star Wars Galaxies. A truly challenging game filled full of even more insane challenges...especially if you wanted to be a Force Sensitive. Nothing was handed to you, there was no way to get anything you wanted without a challenging and difficult road ahead; and that is what pulled these same types of players to these types of games. People burned for the challenge and people took pride in their accomplishments and they were admired and respected by their fellows players for reaching these accomplishments. These games were not made for everybody, especially not for people who wanted to max out and get everything they can in less than a day. It took some people over a year to finally unlock Jedi and it took hard work and dedication to become powerful and established no matter what profession you decided to go with. MMORPG's by their very design and nature was like this and that is what drew people like me in to them. It took a certain level of insanity for one to enjoy games like this and even more so; it took hard work, a lot of time and dedication. It was something to be proud of.

Games like this held players for extremely long periods of time and had a very loyal fan base. People did not leave and then come back only when new content was released but instead they played the entire time while new content simply drew in more new players.

 

A different shard of history as I never played either AC or SWG:

 

A formula of task-oriented MMOs that were a thing in the past and still exhibit a strong niche in the present is the Final Fantasy set of MMOs.  My first MMO was FFXI and that game was brutal, complex and intriguing while being in a place that felt like an actual world.  Soloing for exp at a reasonable rate was practically impossible after you got past level 15 and even attempting held the danger of death and undoing your progress.  Only through careful planning, partying or using specific jobs/subjobs could you reasonably solo.  It made exploration fun and exhilarating, it made teaming a form of culture as you were putting aside your time as well as others' and you wanted to utilize that limited resource as best as possible and extra tasks such as obtaining quests, spells, special items, access to new places, certain features like increased inventory or new jobs, or even crafting and selling via your bazaar were a reflection of your prioritization of that time.

 

FFXIV is similar in a lot of respects sans the leveling part as you can progress your job levels pretty easily through story completion but there is just so much to do, a new player can sometimes feel overwhelmed which can be a great thing.  There's a reason it is one of the most popular current era MMORPGs on the market.

 

As for FFXI, I occasionally revisit it because changes to it have made some things a bit different and accessible (like the NPC party members you can collect, kind of like pokemon).  It basically turns FFXI into an old school version of FFXIV to an extend as the NPCs can be your party and you can level up and explore to your hearts content and use whatever job/subjob combo you fancy that you could never do in the old school game.

 

The way that those games are made and balanced is the world is greater and more powerful than an individual player and steps have been made to push for the world to be just that bit more easier and accessible.  I feel now, a lot of games are the reverse in that they overpower the player and are consistently forced to create harder content to keep up with the player.  And the modern MMOs push to make more things accessible and easier you really don't have the chance to appreciate earning some of those accessibilities.  I think Black Desert is the only MMO I can think of without fast travel (or maybe it does now) requiring some planning just getting from place to place.  Things like that aren't even questioned now as instant teleports are practically expected...but it really does help make a world feel like a world when that isn't the case and so long as you're not literally going on a 1hr long road trip just to get to a quest location (5-10min tops) is it really that inconvenient?  The answer is yes, in these days, yes.

[Hero_of_Light]

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

There are levels, vet levels, incarnate levels and powers, and badges as well as inf(luence/amy/formation) to grind for.  

 

I really do not understand the recent downpour of 'everyone is leaving the game let us find a reason for the blame' and I don't understand the continuing plea for more grindy stuff.  

 

The people in charge of deciding what, and what not, to add certainly have my vote whether they choose to add gated stuff or not.  As for more gated stuff producing longevity in players, that has been disproven by the sheer numbers of new players who beg for PL or immediately create a farmer for inf.  They dont want to participate in the existing grind and new shinies wont keep them around for more than the minute it takes to burn out that content, too.  

 

I firmly believe any population fluctuations are due to the normal ebb and flow of MMO gaming culture and will peak with new content then dip again.  I think the type of people who will burn out on the grind and leave will not stay appreciably longer just because of new grind.  I think gating things, like costume pieces which can be so integral to character customization, would most likely cause a few people to wander away.  Character customization is the salt and pepper of this game.

 

Between collecting all the badges, making a toon of every powerset combo in every AT and getting them all maxed out, including T4 incarnates, I personally feel we have plenty of grind for the goal-oriented yet non-self-motivationed players out there.  Plenty more grind available for folks who want to set their own goalposts and limits.

 

I am not in charge of anything, so if the people who are in charge of stuff choose to add stuff I dont like, oh well, more power to them.  I love this game to the point of obsession and I will continue to play regardless of what is or isnt added.

 

As always, this is an opinion and agree or disagree, we are all still friends here so lets go punch some skulls in the face!

Awesome!

 

I love hearing people enjoy the game. 

 

That's all I'm here checking into: is there more that can be done to help people enjoy the game more. 

 

There's obviously people here that like it just the way it is, but why not add some variety so other people have some of the grindy things to enjoy?

 

Badges won't work as the 'this should make you happy' and eventually instead of seeing posts asking or talking about these things, you just won't see those players in game.

 

I know this because I'm the last of my 43 person SG and these were the last things we spoke about as I slowly became the last of my SG.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

As for more gated stuff producing longevity in players, that has been disproven by the sheer numbers of new players who beg for PL or immediately create a farmer for inf.  They dont want to participate in the existing grind and new shinies wont keep them around for more than the minute it takes to burn out that content, too.  

 

I don't think that really proves or disproves anything, really.  Overall, the industry would probably be evidence to the contrary, it's just that what could be considered meaningful grind will differ from one game to another as well as what is an acceptable amount of grind.

 

What could be an interesting retrospective is how critically sharp players get after they encounter and interact with various gaming systems/formulas and the more observant we become the more we seek to manipulate and circumvent hurdles and grind.  Rather than make games less grindy (and I'm not really singling out CoX here), perhaps developers should seek to make said grind more seamless to the overall gameplay loop.  Ultimately, everything you do in the game is a kind of grind so trying to limit or eliminate that gets you a redux-version of a game.

[Sir Myshkin]

I absolutely hate gated/locked content when it comes to a game like this where the replay capacity is tied more to making additional characters than it is focused play on one character. When this game was still live, and went F2P, I continued paying the monthly not just in support of the game, but because not paying locked and restricted me from things. Didn't even matter what I couldn't have, it was just the pure notion that there was something I wouldn't have access to as a F2P.

 

I pay an extra $6.00 a month on my Hulu subscription just to turn off ads because they infuriate me for the time it wastes.

 

When capes and auras were locked behind a mission arc I only ever opened it up on my first two characters, after that I decided I just didn't care enough about either "feature" to complete the missions on anyone else. Same went for access into Cimerora, I unlocked it on a handful of characters I felt it relevant enough to do the content on, and didn't bother on any others because the Midnighter arc is tedious to keep repeating 20+ times (pre Night Ward).

 

And Katie Hannon? I love Croatoa, it's personally my favorite zone, but I only ever unlocked that arc once. Ever. I didn't even manage to unlock it here, the character I started it on never finished the series of arcs required, hit 50 in other content, and since got shelved in favor of the next project. I don't even remember which character I started it on anymore.

 

If the game had more staying power for individual characters (more content to cover per character) that incentivized staying with 1-5 characters over dozens, then semi-locked content could be a bit more reasonable. Guild Wars 2 was a lot more along those lines, stick with one character and build up gear and stats progressively, work through their Race/Class story arcs, and it was possible to spend an absurd amount of time on one character without running out of new things. Even with power selection and gear making it possible to mix up any given build, GW2 had very little reason to ever alt beyond a couple of characters, and if one did they paid the penalty of having to redo a considerable amount of stuff they'd already completed once before. I only ever rolled three characters before life got in the way and I... just never went back to it, and I had to intentionally path out what parts of the story I'd complete with each character across the content to ensure I didn't end up repeating anything because the game didn't have (at the time) nearly the same level of content that CoH did/does.

 

Having said all that, this is a 16 year old game that's spent half that time shut down. Yes it's great to have it back and see new things, but gate keeping content isn't going to provide longevity and interest, there's already a massive back log of missions and such to play through, and any new content we get should (in my opinion) have a reasonable path to access it without abnormal requirements. Taking the more recent new story arcs as an example, they are simple to access based on natural game play (as it should be). If someone came by and told me I couldn't play the new story arc unless I had the Task Force Commander badge, I'd most certainly walk away and never bother.

 

tl;dr Gated content Bad. If a game needs to have gated/locked content then it needs to have a significant enough value to be repeatable (multi alts), or have the reason it's withheld be relevant to a vast amount of content that plays to/within a story (limited alts). If the content is something basic like a Cape, there's just no value there and should have an alternative means to access on an account after an initial unlock. I don't have an issue with [New Account: Character 1] having unlocks, but after that when/if a locked point/task is earned it should open to the entire account and not just that character. And yes, I'd even take this so far as to apply it to certain badges as well like Exploration, Historical, Oro-Specific, Auction, or Invention; essentially ones that don't track kill counts or trial/TF completion status.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Sir Myshkin

[Hero_of_Light]

23 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

I absolutely hate gated/locked content when it comes to a game like this where the replay capacity is tied more to making additional characters than it is focused play on one character. When this game was still live, and went F2P, I continued paying the monthly not just in support of the game, but because not paying locked and restricted me from things. Didn't even matter what I couldn't have, it was just the pure notion that there was something I wouldn't have access to as a F2P.

 

I pay an extra $6.00 a month on my Hulu subscription just to turn off ads because they infuriate me for the time it wastes.

 

When capes and auras were locked behind a mission arc I only ever opened it up on my first two characters, after that I decided I just didn't care enough about either "feature" to complete the missions on anyone else. Same went for access into Cimerora, I unlocked it on a handful of characters I felt it relevant enough to do the content on, and didn't bother on any others because the Midnighter arc is tedious to keep repeating 20+ times (pre Night Ward).

 

And Katie Hannon? I love Croatoa, it's personally my favorite zone, but I only ever unlocked that arc once. Ever. I didn't even manage to unlock it here, the character I started it on never finished the series of arcs required, hit 50 in other content, and since got shelved in favor of the next project. I don't even remember which character I started it on anymore.

 

If the game had more staying power for individual characters (more content to cover per character) that incentivized staying with 1-5 characters over dozens, then semi-locked content could be a bit more reasonable. Guild Wars 2 was a lot more along those lines, stick with one character and build up gear and stats progressively, work through their Race/Class story arcs, and it was possible to spend an absurd amount of time on one character without running out of new things. Even with power selection and gear making it possible to mix up any given build, GW2 had very little reason to ever alt beyond a couple of characters, and if one did they paid the penalty of having to redo a considerable amount of stuff they'd already completed once before. I only ever rolled three characters before life got in the way and I... just never went back to it, and I had to intentionally path out what parts of the story I'd complete with each character across the content to ensure I didn't end up repeating anything because the game didn't have (at the time) nearly the same level of content that CoH did/does.

 

Having said all that, this is a 16 year old game that's spent half that time shut down. Yes it's great to have it back and see new things, but gate keeping content isn't going to provide longevity and interest, there's already a massive back log of missions and such to play through, and any new content we get should (in my opinion) have a reasonable path to access it without abnormal requirements. Taking the more recent new story arcs as an example, they are simple to access based on natural game play (as it should be). If someone came by and told me I couldn't play the new story arc unless I had the Task Force Commander badge, I'd most certainly walk away and never bother.

 

tl;dr Gated content Bad. If a game needs to have gated/locked content then it needs to have a significant enough value to be repeatable (multi alts), or have the reason it's withheld be relevant to a vast amount of content that plays to/within a story (limited alts). If the content is something basic like a Cape, there's just no value there and should have an alternative means to access on an account after an initial unlock. I don't have an issue with [New Account: Character 1] having unlocks, but after that when/if a locked point/task is earned it should open to the entire account and not just that character. And yes, I'd even take this so far as to apply it to certain badges as well like Exploration, Historical, Oro-Specific, Auction, or Invention; essentially ones that don't track kill counts or trial/TF completion status.

Often value is based on the person. I gave an example of a gated costume piece tied to a story arc that I feel is fair 

[ninja surprise]

If this were like a single-player story-based game like Icewind Dale that I can keep forever and play whenever and I wasn't a grown-up with a job and family and other responsibilities, I'd go for the grind/unlock. 

But since it's a MMO with a billion combinations of powersets and an unknown lifespan I prefer quicker unlocks.  We thought the Live game was going to last forever and it didn't. We hope these independent servers will last for years, but we don't know for sure. 

So my focus is trying new things and trying the old things with new toons and powersets in what little time I have. I don't want to grind and unlock everything over and over again, I want to play and team and TF and try out things I've never done before. 

I've already done most of the unlockable stuff on live at least once, and probably several times. There's so many storylines on red and blueside I haven't done

[Hero_of_Light]

8 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

 

I've already done most of the unlockable stuff on live at least once, and probably several times. There's so many storylines on red and blueside I haven't done

That's why my suggestions we're for new content, and in a way that's tied into the new content. Not 1000 skull kills gets you a costume peice

Edited November 9, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[MTeague]

7 hours ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Doesn't that lead to people leaving anyways though if there's nothing to play towards?

 

Self imposed limits only go so far.

For some people, self imposed limits only go so far. 

For other people, developer imposed limits become a grindy treadmill that is boring-as-F, for no other reason than to BE grindy.

 

I gave up the treadmills forevermore when I hung up the gloves after eight years of WoW.

I will never, ever, EVER, play another game where I *need* several groups of people to accomplish anything I care about.  (and no, I do not care about incarnate trials, those have zero appeal to me, I put in my time in Hell during WoW progression raiding).

 

I could quite contentedly play CoH on Homecoming as-is, with zero additional content, for at least three more years, possiblly four, because I'm taking each of my characters through their own storyline. It's not about dinging 50. It's not about incarnates. It's not about badges. It's not about getting drops. It's not about progression. It's roleplay-vs-game for my own internal headcanon for each character. I can milk that for years.

 

I enjoy teaming on a casual basis.  I don't mind helping other people out when someone puts a call into LFG chat or General Chat or Help Chat. 

But I don't ever want to be in any kind of "Guild" ever again, for any purpose, in any game. 

I prefer to game when I want, for as long as I want, until I feel like what I'm done for that day or maybe that week.

I do not want to worry about whether other people are counting on me to log in at particular times or to join them for particular events, ever again. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by MTeague
fix typos/grammar

[MTeague]

33 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

That's why my suggestions we're for new content, and in a way that's tied into the new content. Not 1000 skull kills gets you a costume peice

Every player has the ability to contribute new content, by means of AE. 

 

I say that a bit tongue in cheek because I have yet to really sit down and wrestle with the mission editors seriously. But the reality is, we have a small team of volunteer devs.  Count the number of new story arcs and zones that have been implemented since Homecoming went live. I do not expect that pace to increase in the foreseeable future. Homecoming has made clear they want to have a very high professional-grade bar for anything they introduce.  I very much respect that. But it takes TIME. And you're dealing with a small all-volunteer dev team, who are contributing their free time after their day jobs, after spending time with their families, to gradually produce something that is up to snuff.

 

I humbly submit to you that is is entirely unrealistic to hope the devs will ever crank out enough new content to keep a player base hungry for new shines happy for very long.  Hell, games that have a legion of paid developers and testers usually can't manage that. 

 

I really think if you have a hunger for new content, the best thing to do is try to gather like minded people to crowdsource that content and build Story Focused Mission Arcs in AE.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Those are some very good points, @MTeague.

 

It's also why I would like to encourage the Devs to scale back on traditional content, and investigate developing additional tools for players to meaningfully define their own play experiences.

As much as I appreciate the work that has been done, and the likes of @holymittens and @Piecemeal's story arcs, I think some focus on giving the players more personal power in places like Bases, AE, and the costume creator/customization will ultimately lead to MUCH greater sustainability than any amount of "Grindable" content they could ever imagine adding.

The more power the players have to entertain themselves within City of Heroes, the less overhead there is for the Devs to worry about, while simultaneously placing the responsibility for content on the community's shoulders.

 

AE was a great first step, although with a lot of flaws.

I think we have the opportunity to really go in new, exciting directions now, though.

 

I would certainly like to put my thoughts down to paper and compose a design document on some ideas I have floating around, but I'm not as good as these Devs are in terms of time management and applicable skills.  I know some people seem to think I'm ungrateful because of how critical I am all the time, and I do apologize if my criticisms ever wind up being demoralizing.  If I were in the Devs' position, the kind of feedback that I try to provide is the sort of feedback I know I'd prefer to hear.  Of course the Platinum Rule is better than the Golden Rule, but I just don't know how the Devs would prefer the feedback be delivered and expressed exactly.

So, if/when I ever get around to sharing a design doc in these parts, I do welcome folks to sink their teeth in to it!  Hell, if folks (and GMs, and Devs) want to provide feedback on the way I express myself right now, I'd be interested in hearing that too.

 

All the same . . . the big problem with grind, even if it -is- welcome by players, is that it's finite.

Eventually the latest carrot will be got, and those looking for the next grind will be wondering where it is.

So . . . I think some tools to customize our goals and targets as players could probably be a lot more impactful and long-lasting than just constantly playing catch-up with a volunteer team that's trying to continue development of the game in the same way that it was while it was a for-profit retail affair.

It's a brave new world of gaming out there!  I believe we can embrace the opportunity to change some things up on a fundamental level.  We can explore entirely new ways to play and new ways to engage!

[HelBlaiz]

Going to restate my stance on this:

Never lock costume pieces behind content.

 

Outside of that, something @Piecemeal said in the last grindy thread sounded pretty neat. Apparently having certain badges or the like would provide a bonus fight in their new story arcs. That sort of content gating seems neat to me. A pseudo-customized experience in story missions depending on what other content you've done. Content locked behind similar other content. I could get behind that. It even provides some replayability!

Edited November 9, 2020 by HelBlaiz

[nightroarer]

8 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I share this sentiment.  I wouldn't be opposed to having capes and auras locked while having access via the trainers to unlock the capes/auras with 5 merits.  At least then, it feels like, if I decided to do the mission to unlock, I'm saving myself some currency OR if I have an abundance of currency, I can just send that to my new alts like I usually do with the 1mil inf stipend to start them off.

I would hate this. Capes and auras are cosmetic and a standard part of a superhero character's costume and characterization. I always thought those were silly items to gate. I'll still run the missions--as missions. The problem with gating content is that all too often things chosen are not the most logical and/or the way to unlock the content is boring or grindy.

 

I remember in Star Trek Online when they introduced a new five-mission arc on New Romulus. The missions were unlocked via reputation, which meant doing the same set of reputation quests over and over until each mission unlocked. I ground my way through it on one character and vowed to never go through that or any other similar grind again. Later, they unlocked the missions by default, and I took quite a few characters through it, doing not only the missions themselves, but the reputation quests as missions, not grind. Being able to do the rep missions as missions made them more enjoyable, and added another way to add alternate leveling paths to different characters.

 

I'm not an "instant gratification" player, but I'm also not a "you gotta work yourself to death" player. I already have a job; I'm here to play. If they want to gate content, they need to gate the right content and make unlocking it engaging, not boring, mindless repetition.

 

To me, the best reward is engaging content. What good does it do to get the best gear, costumes, and so forth if I don't enjoy the process? Rewards are meaningless if attaining them isn't fun.

[nightroarer]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

perhaps developers should seek to make said grind more seamless to the overall gameplay loop.

Another way to say this might be: The grind should never feel like a grind.

[golstat2003]

Pass. The time of gated content is long gone. I would not mind if they introduced a few story arcs with gated costume pieces but I simply wouldn't bother to play them. I don't in any way think it should be a priority for HC though.

[Omega-202]

If the goal is to increase player retention, suffice to say that any sign of "goals to work toward" aka grind in any form being added to the game, and it'll be the end of my tenure here.  There's more than enough for most people to do in the game as it is, and if you're finding yourself having run out of things to do, you should find another game or redirect your energies to some other venture.   There's nothing wrong with moving on or taking a break.  

[Leogunner]

6 hours ago, nightroarer said:

I would hate this. Capes and auras are cosmetic and a standard part of a superhero character's costume and characterization. I always thought those were silly items to gate. I'll still run the missions--as missions. The problem with gating content is that all too often things chosen are not the most logical and/or the way to unlock the content is boring or grindy.

 

The capes and auras thing was more an example since that piece of content already existed.  It's too late to change that particular unlock now but it could be an option for something new.

 

Like I said before, the prospect of "hating" something doesn't make it bad or even undesirable. Looking past surface level appeasement or worse case scenarios, games are all just various combinations of challenges, repeating tasks and time consumers.  I'm not here to argue against examples of bad implementations since you can practically give infinite examples of such, I'm here to mark the good or seemingly bad but decent examples and why I feel they are good/decent.  With regards to the old capes/auras, I believe they had an alternate way of unlocking them via vet rewards which, for that particular era for the game might be decently acceptable but if they had created some other means to unlock them besides just re-doing the mission, I could see that as being an alternative that allows you to choose how you want to go about accessing a piece of content.

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

All the same . . . the big problem with grind, even if it -is- welcome by players, is that it's finite.

Which is a good thing.  "Grind" in other MMORPGs tends to mean running on the gear treadmill and chasing new level caps.  Content is added, but that content requires new gear and/or a higher level, which forces players to replay that content repeatedly in order to acquire the gear and levels, leading to rapid burn-out and short-term spikes in player population which drop just as sharply.  "Grind" here only means XP and/or inf*/merits, and content exists in the combination of power sets, pools, *PPs, costumes and how we use them (size/gender changing, species changing, powering up, etc.), which arcs/*Fs/missions we choose to run, and so forth, and there's an end to it.  That end allows us to move forward and experience the existing content in different ways (how many possible power set, pool and *PP combinations are there?  back hurts, not doing math this morning), which changes how that existing content feels and refreshes the "grind".

 

Having an end to the grind is the better approach, because it extends the life of the existing content, allows deeper exploration of existing options and permits players to form stronger bonds with their characters.  Presuming infinite content updates and ever-increasing level caps, the grind itself becomes infinite, and players tend to show far less interest in repeating the experience due to the continually increasing length of time it takes to reach that momentary pause in the grind when they reach the current level cap or finally have that last piece of gear.  And yes, it does mean some players will find their perfect combination of archetype, sets, pools, *PPs and costume pieces and decide they've reached the end of their interest in Co*, but at least they have that choice, as opposed to being forced to stay or return if they ever want to feel complete.  People should continue playing a game because they enjoy it, not because another step was added to the grind.