New Energy Melee - Thoughts?

[Riverdusk]

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

Let's not forget, in the mission clearing test, the set ranked a D+ 😛

 

 

Exactly.  OP in single target (if it even is) doesn't really mean much for the vast majority of this game's play for the majority of the playerbase.  I personally like it because I spend a lot of time just going solo through the content and find it fun to solo TF's (NOT on x8), and literally never farm, so I think it'll work well for me (just like my DM/SR stalker did).  EM as a teaming powerset should be...okay.  And I think if anyone suggested it for farming they'd probably be laughed at.  

 

18 hours ago, nihilii said:

Thoughts? Overpowered. I thought so in build 1, then they went and buffed it further in the next builds. 😄

 

It's not only the stellar DPS. It's the DPE!! Energy Transfer costing 0 endurance makes Energy Melee THE top tier melee powerset to be economical.

 

And, with ET crits healing you rather than damaging you, you don't really need to pay a price for it either. Both Scrappers and Stalkers have enough controllable crits to at least break even on the +/- HP.

 

Needless to say, I will enjoy the heck out of EM these next months.

There are so many ways to handle endurance issues in this game now I personally don't consider DPE that big of a plus.  If someone wants to play more old school though and ignore all the new tools, then I could see that being more important for them.  But for me, even leveling up I almost always have all the usual special IO's slotted, the P2W buff going, P2W recovery serums handy, and the SG base buff going (the SG base buff and recovery serums are the two most underrated, cheap and amazing).  If all that isn't enough (I found it almost always is), you still have epic pool and incarnate options.

[Vulpoid]

I wish the new mechanic could be used before level 18(?) though...
I am playing a Scrapper, currently only lv 12 and it seems a shame not to experience Energy Focus until so much later in the build *sigh*
If Barrage a tier 1 pick  benefits from EF, why do I have to wait so long to reap that effect?
That is weird.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Vulpoid

[JnEricsonx]

Feels like the health loss from ET should be matched by a set with healing, ala Willpower, Regen, etc.   The last time I used EM was over a decade ago, so am I wrong to think that?

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, JnEricsonx said:

Feels like the health loss from ET should be matched by a set with healing, ala Willpower, Regen, etc.   The last time I used EM was over a decade ago, so am I wrong to think that?

Pre i5 I was Invuln/EM. Post Will Power, I rerolled WP/EM. I am currently today WP/EM and although the damage does not make or break me, I do feel it...most especially when running content that cripples my Defense and I am left with only Resistance and Regen. I don't think there is any particular primary that anyone should roll with EM, I remember post shut down it was popular for players to roll Ice/EM, although I am not sure why as neither one benefits the other, but, I guess it was nice for theme. Regardless they made it work just fine.

[nihilii]

9 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

There are so many ways to handle endurance issues in this game now I personally don't consider DPE that big of a plus.  If someone wants to play more old school though and ignore all the new tools, then I could see that being more important for them.  But for me, even leveling up I almost always have all the usual special IO's slotted, the P2W buff going, P2W recovery serums handy, and the SG base buff going (the SG base buff and recovery serums are the two most underrated, cheap and amazing).  If all that isn't enough (I found it almost always is), you still have epic pool and incarnate options.

For sure, it depends what you're shooting for. At the highend, proc builds typically consume anywhere from 4-6 endurance per second running their attack chain, which is higher than just about any personal sustain that doesn't sacrifice animation time save for /cold (Heat Loss)

 

In some of my builds even with Ageless Core Epiphany I still bleed end slightly in sustained fights (which is fine, recovery serum is indeed there to fix that). DPE becomes a sizeable boon in the context of solo challenges (especially no insps/temps), as it can allow for an alternate build relying on Barrier/Rebirth for even more mitigation without any significant DPS compromise.

The name of the game is opportunity cost. If I have the miracle and numina slotted, if I spend more than a slot on Stamina and if that slot isn't the Power Transfer chance for heal, I'm likely giving up possible pluses in other areas for the sake of endurance management.

[Coyote]

19 hours ago, Troo said:

Hold on there spark plug. I would actually propose lifting the lower end. But how to do it with out impacting the top end?

 

Uber builds do feel over tuned which is more on procs and incarnates than the set itself.

 

Statistically, it's easy. Give all powers some built-in enhancement bonuses, but lower the values of enhancements. Say, a no-enhancement build gets a 20% damage bonus, and a max-enhancement build gets a 20% drop in damage.

 

Actually making major changes to the game that would impact every single player, is basically impossible. The only way it could fly is in a few years if all goes impossibly right, and a dev team is considering CoH 1.5 (because 2.0 would probably make even greater changes), then some major changes narrowing the gap between the top and the bottom builds could be done.

Until then, it's all wishlisting.

[tidge]

20 hours ago, Troo said:

I would actually propose lifting the lower end. But how to do it with out impacting the top end?

If by "low end" you are referring to low-performing sets: My initial thought would be to help those sets out in a way which doesn't obviously affect them from the PoV of DPS formula (e.g. damage, activation time, recharge), but should improve the QoL of those powers.

 

How about cutting endurance costs for the under-performing sets? As near as I can tell, it is the all-powerful metric of 'Kill Speed' that determines if a set is 'under performing'. I'm well aware of the available options for improving MaxEnd, EndCost and Recovery... and the relative cost/utility for spending slots to improve each. I don't think that reducing endurance costs across-the-board would do much more than free up a single slot (or alter a few slot choices) on some builds... but freeing some of the build constraints for under-performers by reducing Endurance costs might be an acceptable compromise.

[Hew]

I love it. It on a tank, despite the bigger target counts, is pretty ok but not omg tw 2 point OH MAI GAWD. I would like to be able to do more damage with it, but it certainly does what I need. 

 

On a scrapper on low to mid slotting, its pretty good, but I still end up corpseblasting in level appropriate content. However, I can survive on level appropriate content (+0, +1), and I do a fair amount of killage. I use combat teleport, which may affect that.

[Solarverse]

On 11/29/2020 at 5:23 AM, nihilii said:

You're right. Everything I say will always be about PvE. DPS/DPE are irrelevant metrics in PvP.

Ugh, having a hard time staying focused on it. Those animations are just sooooo fricken bad. The only two animations that I like on a Stalker are the Assassin's Psi Blade and Greater Psi Blade. All the other animations feels like I am in a dojo doing warm-up exercises.

However, here is my finding. It does indeed do insane amounts of damage...with an all SO build with no procs, I am still producing more DPS than any of my other Stalkers under those same slotting conditions. However, I also lead with Assassin's Psi Blade which has a really high probability to activate Insight...which means as a Stalker, I have more control over Insight and can use Greater Psi Blade more often than not on command.

So perhaps on a Brute or Tank or even Scrapper, Insight needs to be adjusted to grant Insight more often so they can be more on par in that category. So I would agree it can probably use some love, however, on a Stalker, it's just straight up deadly and no love should be given....well, an animation change would be nice for the stiffer looking attacks....most of those attacks are just pure poop.

[Troo]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

If by "low end" you are referring to low-performing sets: My initial thought would be to help those sets out in a way which doesn't obviously affect them from the PoV of DPS formula (e.g. damage, activation time, recharge), but should improve the QoL of those powers.

My bad, I meant the lower end builds. Like level 20-30 rather than 50 T4.

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

If by "low end" you are referring to low-performing sets: My initial thought would be to help those sets out in a way which doesn't obviously affect them from the PoV of DPS formula (e.g. damage, activation time, recharge), but should improve the QoL of those powers.

 

How about cutting endurance costs for the under-performing sets? As near as I can tell, it is the all-powerful metric of 'Kill Speed' that determines if a set is 'under performing'. I'm well aware of the available options for improving MaxEnd, EndCost and Recovery... and the relative cost/utility for spending slots to improve each. I don't think that reducing endurance costs across-the-board would do much more than free up a single slot (or alter a few slot choices) on some builds... but freeing some of the build constraints for under-performers by reducing Endurance costs might be an acceptable compromise.

Its not always kill speed. In my mission based tests there was emphasis on consistency and damage mitigation as well that really made a difference over just raw output. For example, Battle Axe was in the top 10 clear times (10th counts!), but bottom 4 in terms of safety so it fared much worse overall when I ran the missions on SO's. Likewise, Energy Melee absolutely dunked on the bosses... but then was slowed down by everything else and did still have safety issues in exchange due to ET.

 

Vs a Pylon or a Catered Farm your results will vary set to set, but when judged by multiple criteria at once I feel you gain a new perspective. I agree with @nihilii that Psy Melee is actually lacking due to this, especially when you compare it to Energy which does the whole ST damage shtick a bit better.

 

That said, adding more utility and fun to set rather than just "more dakka" is something I'll always vote for.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 11/28/2020 at 8:59 PM, nihilii said:

Thoughts? Overpowered.

Lvl 54 AVs defeated, no faceplants
Infernal, Malaise, Chimera, Nightstar, Bobcat, Neuron, Battle Maiden, Black Swan, Mother Mayhem, Marauder, Olympian Guard, and Anti-Matter.

Diabolique and Dominatrix required Ultimate Insps.

Still working on Siege but waiting until I have Lore and Judgement T4ed.

 

With a gorram TANK. OP? Yes. Broken? Yes.

 

And I still hate the combo system.

 

But will I play it? Absolutely! Why not be a completely unkillable god?

Edited November 30, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Gobbledigook]

I like the new Energy Melee, but i do not want to see anymore nerf Super Strength posts. 😛

[Saikochoro]

I love the new energy melee. I think the reason the energy focus mechanic hasn’t bothered me is because I always took and USED total focus. I always did TF before ET on live. So it was already natural for me to total focus into energy transfer.

 

Ive been warming up to power crash on my new EM scrapper. I wasn’t super impressed with it in beta testing, but I like it okay. It’s better than nothing. 
 

EM on scrapper (EM/Bio) - can give stalkers a run for their money on boss killing.  Hits so dang hard (2300+ on even con boss). I love it!
 

EM on tanker (mine is SD/EM) - are tanks supposed to do this much damage 😜? Bosses melt so fast and yet cant do anything to me in return even if they had time to try.  Pure awesomeness. 
 

EM stalker - more insane single target. I wasn’t as taken by it on stalker because they do ST very well in general anyway. So I enjoyed scrapper more. I will still have several EM stalker alts though!

 

EM Brute - one of my mains from live (EM/WP) that I haven’t gotten around to remaking yet. I used to be a brute main through and through on live, but have left them behind in favor of scrappers and tankers. In beta testing, I enjoyed EM on brute the least, even though I thought it would be the best given that they get the full benefit of fury while scrappers/stalkers only get 28% crit. 
 

Overall, I love the new EM. It is extremely potent in single target encounters. Still isn’t the greatest at AoE so other sets will still have better clear speeds. But I think that is working as intended. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Infinitum]

I now have 7 EM characters to 50

Invul EM T

Fire EM T

EM Invul B

EM EA B

EM EA Sc

EM EA St

EM SH St

 

ST it's awesome - the best.

 

AoE is serviceable enough to grab agro - this is why you have a team.

 

I have toons that can clear maps faster with AoE death but nothing feels as fun as EM does, for me its because it recaptures and then goes a few steps further than pre nerf EM.

 

I wouldn't call it OP It excels at what its supposed to and is balanced around Focus.  Its definately not Old TW broken OP.

[Razor Cure]

Got my Em/Bio scrapper to 50 the other day. Just before that, I was playing a Ma/Bio scrapper, so both sets are fresh in my mind.

Before changes (both to MA, cobra strike, and the new EM ones) both sets when very very similar. Single target focus, stuns, one pbaoe, literally STun (before this was changed) power with minimal damage.

MA gets the super nice crit buff from Eagle's Claw, and Dragons Tail is a bit more reliable in terms of mitigation than WH. but now, with the EM changes..

EM has TWO Extreme attacks, another aoe cone (which can hit more targets sometimes), and a far better damage type (energy/smash, as opposed to just smash. Ma has two superior attacks (EC only does a bit more damage than Axe Kick) and a single aoe.

 

Obviously not all set should/can/will be equal..but the new EM is amazing. My main on Live was an EM/Da brute, and the changes nailed it. Sure, some people here have talked about how some feedback said the lack of 'always on' fast ET just killed it, but given that TF GIVES the ability to fast et (even on a miss..seriously, can we get that for other combo sets? Waterblast, StreetJ and Dual Blades arent really seen as top tier anyway)..we get the next best thing. And unless you literally click random buttons, as opposed to SOME thought behind an attack chain, you always have fast et.

 

I do lots of duo'ing with a friend, and we have run basically every tf together. I am usually the melee, and last night we were doing Citadel. She remarked (and she does NOT play many melees herself, so the observation is more on how the set looked) that I 'was gonna make them nerf it again.' Being able to kill a boss (even con, we just do the TFC ones to get them done) in TWO hits, without build up, without crits...is just crazy. Trying to think of any of my other melees that can do that, and aside from stalkers with AS+BestAttack...I cant. Maybe StreetJustice, with 3 combo CU..but that set also lacks a superior/extreme second attack.

 

So yeah..the changes are great. More aoe is gold, and even if the clear times aren't the best, its a blast to play.

Now..about those MA changes..?

[ForeverLaxx]

I'm still playing it because it's undeniably a stronger set numerically than it was before, but it still doesn't feel like Old EM, which was my problem with it when it was on beta. I still only take a single AoE (Power Crash, since it comes earlier, does more ST damage over time than Whirling Hands, and animates faster due to not having a weird "do nothing" period tacked on the end of it) but I will never like being forced to used TF before I can realistically utilize ET. The set actually feels fine until that interaction comes and I wish it didn't exist. Always felt the set would be balanced, particularly in today's world, without those powers being coupled together. Unfortunately, it seemed that mechanic was someone's pet idea they were too stubborn to get rid of so we're stuck with it now.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

I love the new energy melee. I think the reason the energy focus mechanic hasn’t bothered me is because I always took and USED total focus. I always did TF before ET on live. So it was already natural for me to total focus into energy transfer.

This is practically how I would play my EM Tank as well, so the new mechanic (while somewhat distracting) hasn't bothered me too much.

[Snarky]

i am excited about the EM changes.  I leveled a 50 EM/Invul Brute a week or so ago in prep.  Then went back to my dark/dark story arc toon.  And havent went back.  Dark got some twerks too.  (yes, twerks)

 

I love the concept of EM getting some love.  I am not a fan of *gimmick, special mechanic sets.  Having said that EM was pretty deflated and needed something. I really enjoy the current Dev teams tweaks and additions to the game. Personally, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.  

 

We really won't have a full understanding, as a community, for months of how good/bad the changes are.  Sure, some uber farmers and mad mid scientists know right now.  Then there is me.  My 'research' is more process and less cut it open and see which organs changed in color.

 

I do support nerfing Regen.  It is just too strong on Tanks and Brutes with those big health bars.

[Hew]

3 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

 but it still doesn't feel like Old EM,

NOTHING will EVER play or feel like "Old EM". 

 

In my opinion, it should not be required to, nor should it be required to hew closely to what "Old EM" was. The game has changed immensely over the years. Time to let halcyon days pass.

[Marshal_General]

2 minutes ago, Hew said:

NOTHING will EVER play or feel like "Old EM". 

 

In my opinion, it should not be required to, nor should it be required to hew closely to what "Old EM" was. The game has changed immensely over the years. Time to let halcyon days pass.

Well crap! Now I have an idea for a character named Halcyon Daze.

[Troo]

5 hours ago, Hew said:

NOTHING will EVER play or feel like "Old EM". 

 

In my opinion, it should not be required to, nor should it be required to hew closely to what "Old EM" was. The game has changed immensely over the years. Time to let halcyon days pass.

Hmm now I would like to see a new power set called Halcyon Attack. It is similar to the current Energy Melee but different enough to be a stand alone power set.

• Keep reduced animation Total Focus (with it's old mag 4 stun, back to tier 9 spot for Stalkers and Tanks)
• Keep reduced animation Bone Smasher
• Keep buffed Whirling Hands (was overdue)
• Old Energy Punch numbers (25% faster rech / 20% less end cost / less dam)
• Old full time fast Energy Transfer (20 sec recharge with the former power order)
• normal crits.
• no power crash.
• no combo.
• with alternate animations for short stabbing/hitting weapons like daggers, sai, batons, nunchaku, kama, tonfa..

grab a back story from https://words.bighugelabs.com/site/plot and done.

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Troo

[Troo]

Anyone else getting spotty animations?

 

Whirling hands just doesn't animate sometimes. Maybe some other powers on the set have similar issues.

[Hew]

Havent seen it, but some people were asking how to see if they were lagging or having network connectivity issues, so might be related.

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

Anyone else getting spotty animations?

 

Whirling hands just doesn't animate sometimes. Maybe some other powers on the set have similar issues.

Answer me this; does your character sometimes randomly just refuse to go in to battle stance? If so, that can cause the missing animations. Happens to me on all kinds of different powersets. Usually after using any build-up type of buff. Happens with Conserve Power type buffs as well. Those buffing powers seem to be the culprit behind characters refusing to go in to battle stance....which in turn has a tendency of not activating random animations/Effects 

 

If this sounds familiar, I have a bug report on this. Some players find it a bug that can wait on a fix...even though the bug has been around since issue 12ish. So unless that bug report garners support, that bug will never be fixed.