Regeneration

[Outrider_01]

Nerfing Regen is a buff.  It makes the other sets look even better.

[BrandX]

32 minutes ago, Dragon Crush said:

Then I'd say we have differing definitions of "take away all the weaknesses". I'm not seeing anyone saying give it a ton of innate defense, give it resist to -def to prevent cascading failure of whatever you scrape together from sets and pools, or perma-MoG or anything else that is without weaknesses.

The main things people seem to be asking for are the ability to survive alphas more often than not, and use the rest of the tools in set to have a chance of staying upright through the rest of the fight. I feel those should be things regen should be able to do regardless of primary, but if you scrapper lock and don't hit your heals while fighting something other than +1/3 council then you'll have a bad time.

 

I'd say the -defense is less a weakness, and more a standard issue, issue, for any set that isn't defense based (and even then, some of those sets weather it better than others).

 

I'd rather see more of the basic Heal/Resist/Defense added to the set, than adding exotic RCH Resist and End Drain Resist.  End Drain, which could be helped to withstand by doubling up QR.

 

I do feel Regen should have to hit those heals though, but I also feel we could use some more passive regeneration, to not hit them as often, while still being at risk.

[summers]

Just now, BrandX said:

 

I'd say the -defense is less a weakness, and more a standard issue, issue, for any set that isn't defense based (and even then, some of those sets weather it better than others).

 

I'd rather see more of the basic Heal/Resist/Defense added to the set, than adding exotic RCH Resist and End Drain Resist.  End Drain, which could be helped to withstand by doubling up QR.

 

I do feel Regen should have to hit those heals though, but I also feel we could use some more passive regeneration, to not hit them as often, while still being at risk.

I'd chime in and say that QR is not really a solution to Sappers, though no doubt you know that already! When they drop your END to zero in 2 seconds and you detoggle your QR doesn't matter. END resistance is where it's at, and since /Regen has no defence to speak of, it eats every debuff in the face.

[oedipus_tex]

It is weird to me that Regen doesn't have among the best Regen, Healing, Recovery and Recharge resists. 

[Wavicle]

I don't want to vastly alter how the set plays. I like the current level of clickiness.

I don't want less clickiness (turning IH into a toggle).

I don't want more clickiness (making Revive into a heal).

I just want the current set to be a bit sturdier without adding much in the way of Damage Resist or Defense. Do it mostly with Absorb, Regen, and Debuff Resists.

[Dragon Crush]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

It is weird to me that Regen doesn't have among the best Regen, Healing, Recovery and Recharge resists. 

Yeah, went through the numbers in another topic on regen, there is no aspect of healing (regen, recovery, click heals, +hp, whatever) that one or more sets don't do better than regen, usually by a fair bit. Someone had said that upping the regen would step on WPs toes, but as I said then and will say again, regen was here first and should be the best at regen/self healing.

As for the -recharge resist, I've said I want some, but I will accept ice being better there. I think should be able to get 30-50% in set (though won't argue too hard against more)

Edited November 30, 2020 by Dragon Crush
comment about recharge

[Troo]

Is this another example of a powerset that just needs one nerf reverted? Then, maybe an adjustment or two and it's good to go rather than a complete revamp?

 

Some good suggestions posted. Some may be reaching too far.

 

Trying to avoid deviating from the existing set is preferred to a re-work. (seems to be a bit of a pattern forming)

 

Deleting powers, replacing functions, personal preference, tuned for high end builds rather than average builds...

Spoiler

 

 

Updated:

Here is a breakdown of what I'd like to see with Regeneration using a Brute as an example.

 

First a breakdown of what I've done: 

• All 3 Auto powers have Res(Regeneration) included. For a brute this is 25.95% each for a final build total of 77.85% Res(Regeneration)
• All 3 Auto powers have unenhanceable scaling Regeneration added as an effect. It begins to kick in when your health dips below 75%. For every 1% of HP lost after 75%, you gain 2% Regeneration (for each Auto power, so 6% total). This allows you a maximum of 150% Regeneration at 0% HP, so combining all 3 Auto powers, this is a maximum of 450% Regeneration at 0% HP, 300% Regeneration at 25% HP, 150% Regeneration at 50% HP, and 0% Regeneration at 75%+ HP.
• I overhauled Quick Recovery and made it Perseverance. It's sort of a hybrid of Gamma Boost (scaling Regen/Recovery based on Health) and Inexhaustible (small max HP increase and various debuff resists).
• I overhauled Revive. I made it Return to Glory, which is basically a 2nd Moment of Glory that you can use (longer cooldown though), but you can also use it as a Revive if you fall in battle.

 

I made numerous other changes, but I can explain them all below.

 

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling Regeneration and changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s, that way the scaling Regeneration will update more frequently.

 

 

Changes: Removed the 15% Res(Toxic) and replaced it with a 9.375% Res(All). This resistance is not enhanceable, which allows us to remove the "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs" flag. This comes into play later with Instant Healing.

 

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of quick recovery. The 30% Recovery bonus will now scale with current HP% (I think this should be buffed up, but good enough for now). We add a +Max HP effect that is worth 10% base HP, with half of this effect being enhanceable. Also added the scaling regeneration (0-150%, based on current HP%). Added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Slows and a 51.9% Resistance to Endurance Drain. Also changed the activation period to 1s to accomodate the scaling Regeneration/Recovery.

 

 

Changes: This used to be Dull Pain. I tweaked it to have a smaller cooldown (240s instead of 360s), but also it is a smaller buff to +Max HP (30% instead of 40%) and Heal (449.78 instead of 599.7). The reasons for this change, I wanted to make it easier to reach perma buff, now needing only +100% Recharge instead of +200% Recharge, and I wanted the self heal to be available more often. The net of the +Max HP does not change, thanks to Perseverance we will still get a +40% MaxHP, with half of that enhanceable.

 

 

Changes:  Minor change here. There was a 50% Regeneration effect that was unenhanceable, I bumped it up to 100% Regeneration effect unenhanceable. This now gives the toggle 200% Regeneration, half unenhanceable.

 

 

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling regeneration and added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Recharge debuffs. Also changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s to accomodate the scaling regeneration.

 

 

Changes: I reduced the cooldown from 650s to 600s. Also added a Strength to Regeneration/Heal buff for 90s. This will give a 29.8% strength boost to the regeneration of Fast Healing, Integration and Health, and will give a 29.8% strength boost to the heals of Numb Pain and Reconstruction (which is why I made the Resistance unenhanceable).

 

 

Changes: Made this power the T8, increased the effect duration from 15s to 20s, and increased the cooldown from 240s to 300s. Also, I removed the Stun protection (since we already get that in 2 other powers) and replaced it with Fear protection. Also reduced the cast time from 2.57s to 1.5s.

 

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of Revive. You can still use this like a revive, but instead of getting 15s of Untouchable, you get 20s of Moment of Glory. You also can use this power while alive as a 2nd Moment of Glory. The cooldown was increased from 300s to 360s to accomodate the added capability (I probably should make it 420s or 480s, but I'll be generous to start).

 

 

 

[summers]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is this another example of a powerset that just needs one nerf reverted? Then, maybe an adjustment or two and it's good to go rather than a complete revamp?

 

Some good suggestions posted. Some may be reaching too far.

 

Trying to avoid deviating from the existing set is preferred to a re-work. (seems to be a bit of a pattern forming)

 

Deleting powers, replacing functions, personal preference, tuned for high end builds rather than average builds...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Updated:

Here is a breakdown of what I'd like to see with Regeneration using a Brute as an example.

 

First a breakdown of what I've done: 

• All 3 Auto powers have Res(Regeneration) included. For a brute this is 25.95% each for a final build total of 77.85% Res(Regeneration)
• All 3 Auto powers have unenhanceable scaling Regeneration added as an effect. It begins to kick in when your health dips below 75%. For every 1% of HP lost after 75%, you gain 2% Regeneration (for each Auto power, so 6% total). This allows you a maximum of 150% Regeneration at 0% HP, so combining all 3 Auto powers, this is a maximum of 450% Regeneration at 0% HP, 300% Regeneration at 25% HP, 150% Regeneration at 50% HP, and 0% Regeneration at 75%+ HP.
• I overhauled Quick Recovery and made it Perseverance. It's sort of a hybrid of Gamma Boost (scaling Regen/Recovery based on Health) and Inexhaustible (small max HP increase and various debuff resists).
• I overhauled Revive. I made it Return to Glory, which is basically a 2nd Moment of Glory that you can use (longer cooldown though), but you can also use it as a Revive if you fall in battle.

 

I made numerous other changes, but I can explain them all below.

 

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling Regeneration and changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s, that way the scaling Regeneration will update more frequently.

 

 

Changes: Removed the 15% Res(Toxic) and replaced it with a 9.375% Res(All). This resistance is not enhanceable, which allows us to remove the "Not affected by outside buffs/debuffs" flag. This comes into play later with Instant Healing.

 

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of quick recovery. The 30% Recovery bonus will now scale with current HP% (I think this should be buffed up, but good enough for now). We add a +Max HP effect that is worth 10% base HP, with half of this effect being enhanceable. Also added the scaling regeneration (0-150%, based on current HP%). Added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Slows and a 51.9% Resistance to Endurance Drain. Also changed the activation period to 1s to accomodate the scaling Regeneration/Recovery.

 

 

Changes: This used to be Dull Pain. I tweaked it to have a smaller cooldown (240s instead of 360s), but also it is a smaller buff to +Max HP (30% instead of 40%) and Heal (449.78 instead of 599.7). The reasons for this change, I wanted to make it easier to reach perma buff, now needing only +100% Recharge instead of +200% Recharge, and I wanted the self heal to be available more often. The net of the +Max HP does not change, thanks to Perseverance we will still get a +40% MaxHP, with half of that enhanceable.

 

 

Changes:  Minor change here. There was a 50% Regeneration effect that was unenhanceable, I bumped it up to 100% Regeneration effect unenhanceable. This now gives the toggle 200% Regeneration, half unenhanceable.

 

 

Changes: Added the unenhanceable scaling regeneration and added a 25.95% Resistance to Regeneration and Recharge debuffs. Also changed the Activate period from 10s to 1s to accomodate the scaling regeneration.

 

 

Changes: I reduced the cooldown from 650s to 600s. Also added a Strength to Regeneration/Heal buff for 90s. This will give a 29.8% strength boost to the regeneration of Fast Healing, Integration and Health, and will give a 29.8% strength boost to the heals of Numb Pain and Reconstruction (which is why I made the Resistance unenhanceable).

 

 

Changes: Made this power the T8, increased the effect duration from 15s to 20s, and increased the cooldown from 240s to 300s. Also, I removed the Stun protection (since we already get that in 2 other powers) and replaced it with Fear protection. Also reduced the cast time from 2.57s to 1.5s.

 

 

Changes: This is an overhaul of Revive. You can still use this like a revive, but instead of getting 15s of Untouchable, you get 20s of Moment of Glory. You also can use this power while alive as a 2nd Moment of Glory. The cooldown was increased from 300s to 360s to accomodate the added capability (I probably should make it 420s or 480s, but I'll be generous to start).

 

 

 

I think there's a need to have resistances or defence, and my preference is scaling resistances for the theme of taking damage and healing it up. I'd really like the health bar to fluctate up and down to simulate what the name 'regeneration' is suggesting in a defence set.

 

Regeneration itself is a strictly linear mechanic - you heal a set amount, and it doesn't care how much damage is incoming. If it is 50 damage/second or 500 damage/second, regeneration is going to heal a flat amount. That's your mitigation. If things get worse, you spiral very fast.

 

Resistances however scale to what's incoming. 90% resistance protects you from 45 out of 50 damage, or 450 out of 500. Resistance works harder the more danger you're in.

 

I think Regeneration needs resistances so that it functions as a set against more difficult enemies. It needs that initial cushion so it can take a heavy hitter on.

 

 

[Dragon Crush]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is this another example of a powerset that just needs one nerf reverted? Then, maybe an adjustment or two and it's good to go rather than a complete revamp?

IH was nerfed 2 weeks before my scrapper was high enough to train it, so can't say if that would be good enough. And while I don't want/think it needs a complete revamp (think it should require more active participation with clicks than other defenses) I do think it needs a good bit of updating.

 

And since summers replied right when I started typing this I will say, the idea of scaling up regen/resist the lower HP drops is sounding better and better.

[aethereal]

44 minutes ago, summers said:

I think there's a need to have resistances or defence, and my preference is scaling resistances for the theme of taking damage and healing it up. I'd really like the health bar to fluctate up and down to simulate what the name 'regeneration' is suggesting in a defence set.

 

Regeneration itself is a strictly linear mechanic - you heal a set amount, and it doesn't care how much damage is incoming. If it is 50 damage/second or 500 damage/second, regeneration is going to heal a flat amount. That's your mitigation. If things get worse, you spiral very fast.

 

Resistances however scale to what's incoming. 90% resistance protects you from 45 out of 50 damage, or 450 out of 500. Resistance works harder the more danger you're in.

 

I think Regeneration needs resistances so that it functions as a set against more difficult enemies. It needs that initial cushion so it can take a heavy hitter on.

I mean, you could scale either regeneration (the stat) or healing with current health.  You could also scale regeneration based on enemies around you.  If your only goal is to give regen an ability to dig itself out of a pit more than it does today (and I agree that the thresholdy nature of regen is a big problem), then you don't need resists or defense to do it, though it might be a little easier/less fiddly with resists or defense.

[Wavicle]

As long as we don't have to start Slotting for Defense or Resist any more than we do now, have at it.

[Galaxy Brain]

Regen def should have scaling regen as mentioned in the Bopper Post though, I feel that is a given.

 

As for "Exotic" debuff resists, I feel regen is "exotic" as is and that fits right in. Its the only armor set that is dependent entirely on clicks and healing for survival with no offensive edge or static defenses. Adding in the theme of "you heal so fast that ailments dont matter" such as being slowed down, etc, makes sense to me.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Razor Cure]

On 11/29/2020 at 3:30 PM, Wavicle said:

Lower the recharge of Instant Healing to 10 minutes

It is OVER 10 mins?? Been ageeeeees since I played regen, but wtf? No power in a powerset should have a 10 min recharge!

On 11/29/2020 at 3:30 PM, Wavicle said:

3. Add End Drain/Recovery Resistance to Quick Recovery

4. Add Recharge Resistance to Resilience

These. Regen should get resists to every single debuff, representing your body shrugging off (regenerating) hardmful effects quicker than anyone else.

[Haijinx]

I think it should be completely revamped

 

It should get moderate resist to S/L/Psi with minor resists to all.  Change dull pain to a smaller static hp buff. 

 

Then some typed defenses especially energy, d eng, environmental, psi with a moderate def debuf resist. 

 

Then instead of clicks it should have a scaling regen aura based on how many enemies nearby.

 

Then tone down the effects and make them yellow instead of green.

 

That would be awesome. 

[summers]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think it should be completely revamped

 

It should get moderate resist to S/L/Psi with minor resists to all.  Change dull pain to a smaller static hp buff. 

 

Then some typed defenses especially energy, d eng, environmental, psi with a moderate def debuf resist. 

 

Then instead of clicks it should have a scaling regen aura based on how many enemies nearby.

 

Then tone down the effects and make them yellow instead of green.

 

That would be awesome. 

I see what you did there

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, summers said:

I'd chime in and say that QR is not really a solution to Sappers, though no doubt you know that already! When they drop your END to zero in 2 seconds and you detoggle your QR doesn't matter. END resistance is where it's at, and since /Regen has no defence to speak of, it eats every debuff in the face.

 

It does.  However, I do wonder, if faster End Recovery wouldn't solver the problem a little and stay in line with Regen being regen.  I guess it's all in how you see the theme.

 

That said, I still feel Dark Armor should max Negative Resist and Energy Aura should max Energy Resist theme wise 😛

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, summers said:

 

 

My post from the regen thread. I think Regeneration should be about seeing your health bar go up and down, which is why I feel it needs stacking resistances and regeneration as it gets lower in health to create the illusion of being hurt and being in danger. Why do I say the illusion? Because I think Regeneration, at least in its current incarnation, should be one of the toughest sets available. It brings exactly zero offence to the table and should be comparable in toughness to Invulnerability and Willpower.

 

Having played one to 50, it has basically no debuff resistances and no defence, which is a recipe for disaster. My Fiery Aura brute is significantly tougher than my Regen brute.

 

I will give you that on terms of toughness.  However, wasn't it shown that Stone Armor and some sets with some offense to be better than WP and INV in another link?

[summers]

22 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I will give you that on terms of toughness.  However, wasn't it shown that Stone Armor and some sets with some offense to be better than WP and INV in another link?

I think there should be of course pros and cons to each set, and one of those is that the more offensive the set the less effective it is defensively. There could be other factors if the set brings utility or team buffs etc.

 

Stone Armour with Granite active might be tougher than anything else but it pays a price with -recharge, -damage and -speed. I don't much want to defend its place since I think it is a 'problem' set identified by a lot of people.

 

If there are sets where it's wildly out of whack (like Regen!) I think they should look at giving it a helpful push.

Edited December 1, 2020 by summers

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

It is OVER 10 mins?? Been ageeeeees since I played regen, but wtf? No power in a powerset should have a 10 min recharge!

These. Regen should get resists to every single debuff, representing your body shrugging off (regenerating) hardmful effects quicker than anyone else.

Yup, 650 second recharge.  

 

Edit:  Keep in mind, as I'm sure the Devs did at the time, IH can take recharge enhancements and high levels of recharge can get that recharge, while not perma, to a point of relatively solid uptime vs downtime.   Mix that with IO sets and now your potentially juggling IH, Shadow Meld and MoG for some very solid survivability. 

 

And yes toggle IH was pretty friggin potent.  My pre-nerf (pre i5) then level 41 BS/Regen went toe to toe with a pair of level 48 Fake Nemesis bosses in PI and fought them to a draw.  They couldn't kill her, she couldn't defeat them.  That's 2 +7 bosses.  

 

Not sure about what to change to make Regen more regen.  It's an inherently reactive response and a lot of the suggestions are proactive.  The idea of some sort of scaling +regen, scaling to damage taken and not vs numbers of surrounding foes seems intriguing and better fits the reactive nature of the set.  Something similar to the way /SR scales its +resistance to damage.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Doomguide2005
Afterthought

[BrandX]

40 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Yup, 650 second recharge.  

 

Edit:  Keep in mind, as I'm sure the Devs did at the time, IH can take recharge enhancements and high levels of recharge can get that recharge, while not perma, to a point of relatively solid uptime vs downtime.   Mix that with IO sets and now your potentially juggling IH, Shadow Meld and MoG for some very solid survivability. 

 

And yes toggle IH was pretty friggin potent.  My pre-nerf (pre i5) then level 41 BS/Regen went toe to toe with a pair of level 48 Fake Nemesis bosses in PI and fought them to a draw.  They couldn't kill her, she couldn't defeat them.  That's 2 +7 bosses.  

 

Not sure about what to change to make Regen more regen.  It's an inherently reactive response and a lot of the suggestions are proactive.  The idea of some sort of scaling +regen, scaling to damage taken and not vs numbers of surrounding foes seems intriguing and better fits the reactive nature of the set.  Something similar to the way /SR scales its +resistance to damage.

 

People say don't count IOs for Slow Resist, but there is saying IOs for Recharge and Shadow Meld (so specific epic) for survival.  That can't be good either 😕

[srmalloy]

15 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

It is OVER 10 mins?? Been ageeeeees since I played regen, but wtf? No power in a powerset should have a 10 min recharge!

It was part of the overreaction on the part of the devs, reworking Regen after their internal testing showed that a Claws/Regen Scrapper could solo +8 spawns without difficulty, despite the playerbase calling bullshit. It was only after the rework was in place that the devs admitted that they'd discovered that their internal test server didn't have the 'purple patch' incorporated, which meant that the scrapper they were testing with was hitting about 10x as often for 10x as much damage as it should have been... but the changes remained. One of them was turning Instant Healing from a toggle into a click power with a recharge time so high that it could not possibly be made perma, because of all the Regen characters that had been built around getting enough end reduction to be able to afford the punishing end cost of IH, which the devs had originally thought would keep characters from running it continuously.

[BrandX]

23 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It was part of the overreaction on the part of the devs, reworking Regen after their internal testing showed that a Claws/Regen Scrapper could solo +8 spawns without difficulty, despite the playerbase calling bullshit. It was only after the rework was in place that the devs admitted that they'd discovered that their internal test server didn't have the 'purple patch' incorporated, which meant that the scrapper they were testing with was hitting about 10x as often for 10x as much damage as it should have been... but the changes remained. One of them was turning Instant Healing from a toggle into a click power with a recharge time so high that it could not possibly be made perma, because of all the Regen characters that had been built around getting enough end reduction to be able to afford the punishing end cost of IH, which the devs had originally thought would keep characters from running it continuously.

If that was the case, sounds like they should've done a roll back as soon as they realized it 😕

 

I remember having my Claws/Regen (first 50) getting nerfed 😞

[Bopper]

27 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It was part of the overreaction on the part of the devs, reworking Regen after their internal testing showed that a Claws/Regen Scrapper could solo +8 spawns without difficulty, despite the playerbase calling bullshit. It was only after the rework was in place that the devs admitted that they'd discovered that their internal test server didn't have the 'purple patch' incorporated, which meant that the scrapper they were testing with was hitting about 10x as often for 10x as much damage as it should have been... but the changes remained. One of them was turning Instant Healing from a toggle into a click power with a recharge time so high that it could not possibly be made perma, because of all the Regen characters that had been built around getting enough end reduction to be able to afford the punishing end cost of IH, which the devs had originally thought would keep characters from running it continuously.

Do you have a link for that? Something on the wayback machine?

[Keen]

Quick thoughts:

• Regeneration Debuff Resistance should be the highest among all sets.
  • Pretty much like Super Reflexes has top resistance to defense debuffs.
  • Radiation Armor is currently the king of RDR and that set is already very strong.
    • I think its RDR should be drastically lowered.
• I don't think Absorption and Defense have any place in Regeneration.
• Low resists to all types of damage would be a nice to have.
• A small endurance drain and recovery debuff resistance would help bring the set more in line with other sets.
  • Some other non-themed sets (other than Elec Armor) that have enddrain/recovery debuff resists: Rad, Dark, Bio, Stone, Fiery, and Invul.
  • On the other hand, other non-themed sets without recovery resists include: Willpower, Ice Armor, Shield Defense, and Super Reflexes. But those sets have better protection layers than Regeneration to offset those debuffs, specially their defense-oriented aspects.
• Scaling Regeneration (as HP drops) sounds great and in theme.
• (Unpopular opinion) MoG is great as is.

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Keen

[Doomguide2005]

10 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

People say don't count IOs for Slow Resist, but there is saying IOs for Recharge and Shadow Meld (so specific epic) for survival.  That can't be good either 😕

Yeah there's no doubt IO's, specifically set bonuses, truly make a hash of balancing around any concept of "around SO's".  And certainly they all should be included (or not) in any discussion.