EAgle's Claw changes: what happened?

[Razor Cure]

I was looking forward to this change, and totally missed any feedback on it. What happened?

[Apparition]

20 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

I was looking forward to this change, and totally missed any feedback on it. What happened?

 

Too many people complained that it didn't make sense for Eagle's Claw to be a cone.  Pity, as it was a perfect change, IMO.

[Razor Cure]

awww. I admit, I didn't it made sense..BUT would have been a great change too.

I just got my new EM scrapper to 50..(after doing a MA one to 45 recently) and the two sets (pre changes), were very comparable. All ST, one basic aoe, stuns. Now EM has more aoe (that can be leveraged for even more targets), a -regen/special attack (I was looking at this and going..what? I mean, its awesome, but a melee attack doing -regen?), and a MUCH better damage type(s).

Dragon's Tail is awesome, and so is the crit bonus from EC..but the rest of the set feels..lacking, especially looking at EM.

[Riverdusk]

Looked like a great change to me as well, a shame.

[nihilii]

Sign me up as yet another person who misses the change dearly. It made MA competitive with the best powersets in ST, thanks to the ability of slotting AoE procs, the almighty purple Arma fire and Fury of Glad -res, into Eagle's Claw.

 

I guess we should have made more of an effort to be openly positive. The naysayers got their way instead. Well... I think there is a consensus from both lovers and haters of this change it doesn't make SENSE thematically, and that consensus was probably the reason for the reversal. But damn if it wasn't fun in performance. Besides, there's many other things who don't quite make sense in the game.

Now to hope the future MA tweaks will be even better. 😉

[Galaxy Brain]

The particle effects could have been changed to make it look the part, but honestly it looked to be a great change for the set that was not overly strong.

[DarionLeonidas]

17 hours ago, nihilii said:

Sign me up as yet another person who misses the change dearly. It made MA competitive with the best powersets in ST, thanks to the ability of slotting AoE procs, the almighty purple Arma fire and Fury of Glad -res, into Eagle's Claw.

 

I guess we should have made more of an effort to be openly positive. The naysayers got their way instead. Well... I think there is a consensus from both lovers and haters of this change it doesn't make SENSE thematically, and that consensus was probably the reason for the reversal. But damn if it wasn't fun in performance. Besides, there's many other things who don't quite make sense in the game.

Now to hope the future MA tweaks will be even better. 😉

Honestly, I loathed this change. 

It made EC feel so watered down as to seem a completely different and not particularly useful power at all.

Most important, it wasn't fun, any more.

I am very grateful they changed it back, and I very much appreciate the GMs understanding and heeding the objections of those like myself who asked that it be restored.

[DarionLeonidas]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:52 PM, Riverdusk said:

Looked like a great change to me as well, a shame.

In playing it, I can testify that it was not.

I really appreciate the GMs changing it back.

[DarionLeonidas]

On 11/30/2020 at 3:39 PM, Razor Cure said:

I was looking forward to this change, and totally missed any feedback on it. What happened?

It simply didn't work. While many claim it did not affect damage, I can attest it most certainly did. Worse, it felt very artificial and didn't play well; it wasn't fun.

I'm very glad the GMs heeded the requests of the players and changed it back.

[Vanden]

It was a straight buff to the power, it wasn't made any weaker or slower. I can understand not liking the idea, but EC wasn't watered down in any way.

[Razor Cure]

5 minutes ago, DarionLeonidas said:

Worse, it felt very artificial and didn't play well; it wasn't fun.

I'm very glad the GMs heeded the requests of the players and changed it back.

Can you define that a bit more? I mean, my argument against it was that an aoe kick to the face makes no sense..BUT i think it would have totally been fun and not felt artifical.

[Indystruck]

A Rider Kick makes perfect sense as an AoE kick.

[Naraka]

Still time to make it a ranged teleport-to-target kick.

[nihilii]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:16 AM, DarionLeonidas said:

It made EC feel so watered down as to seem a completely different and not particularly useful power at all.

Like Vanden said, nothing changed when it comes to damage, endurance or recharge. The only thing that happened is it suddenly could hit several targets when previously it could hit none.

 

I put my own MA scrapper in controlled ST tests, fighting Pylons and recording data compared to Live. The POSITIVE damage change was obvious. It's a no brainer: the change let you slot Arma and Fury procs. It was a strong buff against single targets and a huge buff against groups.
 

I can think of 2 valid reasons to dislike the change:

- roleplay reasons

- wanting to slot Heca in EC and Arma in Dragon's Tail

 

That second one wasn't a performance hit either, it just required a few moments of thinking to adjust slotting choices.

Frustrating to think people who lobbied against such a great change may have done so because of their factually incorrect perceptions...

This quote is doubly frustrating because currently, Scrapper/Brute/Tanker EC is NOT an useful power.  It deals worse DPA than CAK, CK, CS and SK, even after its special bonuses are accounted for. On Live, we pick and use EC because it looks awesome, not because it's efficient. The change finally made EC useful. So to have someone who got their way in reversing change, stroll in here and assert their bizarro world logic... That grates on me to no end.

[Apparition]

5 hours ago, nihilii said:

Like Vanden said, nothing changed when it comes to damage, endurance or recharge. The only thing that happened is it suddenly could hit several targets when previously it could hit none.

 

I put my own MA scrapper in controlled ST tests, fighting Pylons and recording data compared to Live. The POSITIVE damage change was obvious. It's a no brainer: the change let you slot Arma and Fury procs. It was a strong buff against single targets and a huge buff against groups.
 

I can think of 2 valid reasons to dislike the change:

- roleplay reasons

- wanting to slot Heca in EC and Arma in Dragon's Tail

 

That second one wasn't a performance hit either, it just required a few moments of thinking to adjust slotting choices.

Frustrating to think people who lobbied against such a great change may have done so because of their factually incorrect perceptions...

This quote is doubly frustrating because currently, Scrapper/Brute/Tanker EC is NOT an useful power.  It deals worse DPA than CAK, CK, CS and SK, even after its special bonuses are accounted for. On Live, we pick and use EC because it looks awesome, not because it's efficient. The change finally made EC useful. So to have someone who got their way in reversing change, stroll in here and assert their bizarro world logic... That grates on me to no end.

 

Completely and entirely seconded.  I made a Martial Arts/Electric Armor Brute back in late July with the Eagle's Claw buff in mind.  I took it and slotted it with Superior Unrelenting Fury so I wouldn't have to respec once Issue 27 went live.  Instead, once the Eagle's Claw buff was reverted I stopped playing the character and have since retired it.  Eagle's Claw as it stands now is a terrible power on Brutes.  The buff would have actually made it a good power.  C'est la vie.

[Gobbledigook]

I agree, Eagles claw was perfect for it. It would have transformed it from a weak dpa single target attack into a strong cone that the set could use. Win win.

 

I wouldn't turn Storm Kick into a cone as some suggested as it is one of MAs best attacks and would lose that due to getting a cone.

 

Crane kick or CAK could work I guess but then Eagles Claw could still do with speeding up as the dpa isn't so good or a damage buff, hence the damage buff effect it received to try to make it worthwhile and not a dps loss.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Razor Cure]

On 12/4/2020 at 7:17 PM, nihilii said:

This quote is doubly frustrating because currently, Scrapper/Brute/Tanker EC is NOT an useful power.  It deals worse DPA than CAK, CK, CS and SK, even after its special bonuses are accounted for. On Live, we pick and use EC because it looks awesome, not because it's efficient. The change finally made EC useful. So to have someone who got their way in reversing change, stroll in here and assert their bizarro world logic... That grates on me to no end.

Not too disagree with the comments about Eagle's Claw and its DPA, BUT..the extra crit chance after using it is bloody amazing. Even more so if you have Critical Strikes in the power. Build Up, EC, then Dragons Tail..and it crits on nearly every target, every time. It is also useful to get a 100% stun on anything but a boss like sappers, sorceres, etc etc.

[Myrmidon]

On 12/2/2020 at 10:16 PM, DarionLeonidas said:

Honestly, I loathed this change. 

It made EC feel so watered down as to seem a completely different and not particularly useful power at all

My MA/DA Stalker would strongly disagree, however, it appears that she will stay in cryo-sleep for a while longer.

[Solarverse]

If the only changes made in game were only made if the players agree on the change, nothing would be changed at all.

[Naraka]

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

If the only changes made in game were only made if the players agree on the change, nothing would be changed at all.

I and many others can attest to not agreeing with changes but then being made anyway so that's not what happened here.

 

Perhaps a decent point was made to not implement this particular change and people in this thread just disagreed with the rationale.

[Vanden]

I think it got cut because it just wasn't getting a lot of testing.

[Dragon Crush]

I think it came down to many weren't crazy about it and the change by itself wasn't enough to get MA where they wanted it, so they put it off and the whole set will get adjustments at a later date.

[Shadowsleuth]

I didn't get a chance to see the Eagles Claw revamp before it got pulled, but please tell me if the guy you kicked plowed into everyone behind him like something out of the old Shaw Brothers 70s Kung Fu films because that would have been hilarious to see in this game.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Nope, @Shadowsleuth.

If that's what the change had done, then I imagine it might have gone over a bit better, actually (usual complaints about Knockback aside).

[Dragon Crush]

Now I'm thinking some tricksy stuff they could do to turn Crane Kick into an AE... hit foe with it and have a pseudo-pet spawn and deliver PBAE damage centered around the kicked target .25 seconds later to imitate doing damage to whatever you kicked them into.

 

-edit-

Thinking about it a little more, maybe drop the initial hit down to Storm Kick level damage, while having the secondary hit do Thunder Kick level damage and target the main target as well, and also apply kockdown to simulate bowling whatever you hit as well as tying up the initial target longer KDing them a second time as they're getting up. It'd be a slight net gain in ST damage while not being too strong for AE and hopefully leaving room for other improvements elsewhere in the set.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Dragon Crush
more thoughts on how to buff Crane Kick