Is there a reason not to give defenders and dominators melee only sets?

[DougGraves]

Claws, katana, etc.  Is there a reason not to give those to defenders and dominators?  Would they be too strong, too weak, or it just isn't done?

[chi1701]

Can only comment on defenders, only reason I can come up with is that their support abilities are ranged giving them the ability to buff both melee and ranged within their group. A melee only defender would mean that ranged players to get pbaoe heals or buffs would also have to get into melee range as well putting them at risk.

 

I do like the idea however such as a dark/dark melee defender, with their aoe debuffs etc, would make for interesting setup.

[MoisesG]

Maybe this opens the door to new ATs.

A hybrid Buff/Melee and Control/Melee.

[chi1701]

2 minutes ago, MoisesG said:

Maybe this opens the door to new ATs.

A hybrid Buff/Melee and Control/Melee.

Shouldnt need to add or create new ats, with the ability to choose different specs from veats (range or melee etc), this option could be used to open up different avenues of builds

[merrypessimist]

They're not tough enough to survive in melee, is my guess.  Fenders and corrs both have smaller HP pools than scrappers or stalkers, let alone tanks and brutes.  Further with like three exceptions (FF, sonic, electric) none of the support sets have mez protection.  

My understanding is those two factors combined led the original devs to say "yeah, that would probably be an exercise in frustration for the players" and Homecoming's generally evolutionary rather than revolutionary  development philosophy has preserved the status quo.  

 

I'm not 100% certain that's what's at play, but it's my understanding. 

[chi1701]

12 minutes ago, merrypessimist said:

They're not tough enough to survive in melee, is my guess.  Fenders and corrs both have smaller HP pools than scrappers or stalkers, let alone tanks and brutes.  Further with like three exceptions (FF, sonic, electric) none of the support sets have mez protection.  

My understanding is those two factors combined led the original devs to say "yeah, that would probably be an exercise in frustration for the players" and Homecoming's generally evolutionary rather than revolutionary  development philosophy has preserved the status quo.  

 

I'm not 100% certain that's what's at play, but it's my understanding. 

Probably a combination of hp and abilities, considering heats and veats have 53hp more than defenders, and on par with corruptors but have access to melee attacks but supported by self resistance buffs and heals.

[Luminara]

8 minutes ago, merrypessimist said:

They're not tough enough to survive in melee, is my guess.

 

They can.  I tanked AVs and soloed GMs with a melee-only defender.

 

The problem, for defenders, is the melee damage scalar.  It's shit.  We can play defenders who use melee attacks now, with powers like Air Superiority, Cross Punch and *PP melee attacks.  With a 0.55 scalar, though, they're not impressive, even with piles of -Res.  A melee defender is, essentially, a petless mastermind with slightly higher HP pool and better buffs/debuffs.  That's why almost no-one bothers.

 

17 minutes ago, merrypessimist said:

Further with like three exceptions (FF, sonic, electric) none of the support sets have mez protection.

 

TA.

 

And with enough status effects of your own, you can get by without protection.  Pairing Dark Pit with Oppressive Gloom, for example, makes for extremely safe play in melee range.  So there are more options than just the few primaries.

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, merrypessimist said:

They're not tough enough to survive in melee, is my guess.

 

 

But then why give them melee powers in their attack sets?  I get blasters having a mix, they just have so many attacks they need some variety.  But defenders and doms have melee attacks, just no sets with all melee attacks.

[LiquidBandage]

Melee sets extend outside of the original vision of Defenders would by my guess. Even though primary sets like Raditation with Choking Cloud encourage you to stand knee deep in melee range with no mez protection. 

 

Support + Melee powerset combinations lay outside the designs of the original architectures (and assumptions) and I am ok with that for now. If they designed a new AT to be Melee + Support, I'd be down with that, but as it stands, you can sorta do that with Defenders as it is. It does not fit as many concepts as we would like, but it is the option we have atm.

[Nayeh]

I've seen numerous Support/Melee oriented proposals on here, I myself have included one.

 

It's literally one of my favorite Archetype combinations seen commonly across other games. Plz givef melee support.

[Sailboat]

4 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

But then why give them melee powers in their attack sets?  I get blasters having a mix, they just have so many attacks they need some variety.  But defenders and doms have melee attacks, just no sets with all melee attacks.

Do Defenders have melee attacks in their secondaries?  I can't think of any.

[DougGraves]

1 hour ago, Sailboat said:

Do Defenders have melee attacks in their secondaries?  I can't think of any.

so maybe just dominators do.  Weird

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, merrypessimist said:

 

They're not tough enough to survive in melee, is my guess. 

 

They are if you build for them to be. Melee range is where mine spend most of their time.

[Greycat]

48 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

so maybe just dominators do.  Weird

Nothing can touch you if they're stuck in a block of earth/ice/mass of vines/etc.

[Clave Dark 5]

9 hours ago, Luminara said:

They can.  I tanked AVs and soloed GMs with a melee-only defender.

Pretty sure that doesn't apply to a 12th Level Defender though; the game was originally designed to be a slow progress without a rush to 50 and multiple purple sets. I mean, I have one of these defenders capable of that too, but she was still squishy for most of her climb to 50.

[Carnifax]

Give Defenders Assault sets. I want a Nature/Savage defender. 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Pretty sure that doesn't apply to a 12th Level Defender though; the game was originally designed to be a slow progress without a rush to 50 and multiple purple sets. I mean, I have one of these defenders capable of that too, but she was still squishy for most of her climb to 50.

 

I did it in 2005.

[Clave Dark 5]

I think it's safe to say you're not a typical player.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Typical player or not, Defenders are NOT wholly ranged.  Traps emphatically waves "HELLO!" while Kinetics just stares directly into your soul with an expression of:

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/25354-my-latest-idea-for-a-meleebuff-at-and-why-it-wont-work/?tab=comments#comment-309701

 

The premise that "because a lot of Support Powers are ranged, then a Support Archetype -needs- to stay at range" is entirely faulty.  For pete's sake, Dominator's Assault Sets and Blaster's Manipulation Sets are both Ranged/Melee hybrid Sets.  All of the Epic Archetypes are also mixed.  Mixing Ranged and Melee in a single Archetype isn't anything new.  While it might be somewhat of a challenge for new players (or stubborn old players) to wrap their heads around, it's not so alien to the core gameplay of City of Heroes to be entirely unique.  The precedent was set since Issue 0:  Moving in and out of melee range is a-okay for EVERYONE to do; you just gotta be aware of what you're doing.

 

A new Support/Melee Archetype's minimum bar for entry is Defender levels of survival.   That would likely be pushing it, of course, and probably not terribly fun . . . but as long as this Archetype isn't WEAKER than a Defender, it'll be fine.

Hit Points aren't too challenging of a question.  Probably Stalker levels.  Maybe between Stalker/Blaster and Corruptor.  The fundamental question of viability comes down to:  What should the Inherent be?   And for that, we can look to Vigilance for an exemplar.

 

Let's say . . . while Solo, this Support/Melee gets 10 to each Positional Defense, and 15 to all Damage Resistance.  This scales down with each team member who joins (along the lines of 10/8/5/0, 15/10/5/0), until you get 4 or more Teammates.  Obviously these numbers are straight outta my ass, but I imagine someone like @Bopper could crunch the numbers and come up with something more finely tuned.

Also, as suggested in the other threads on this topic, whatever replaces Taunt/Confront/Placate from the Melee Sets should also work to the Archetype's survival.  Hence my suggestion of it being an AoE Placate which also doubles as a Breakfree, Status Protection, and Movement Speed Boost.  Put it in the Level 10 unlock slot so that it's never too far away, and mirrors the Tanker's position of Taunt, cementing it as an integral Power to the Archetype's core identity.

 

Support/Melee isn't unobtainable.

And based on my entirely subjective opinion, which I know doesn't count for a helluva lot, it's the sort of Archetype that would be an absolute fun time!

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by TemporalVileTerror
Had my suggested Defense values reversed; fixed.

[Coyote]

4 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Pretty sure that doesn't apply to a 12th Level Defender though; the game was originally designed to be a slow progress without a rush to 50 and multiple purple sets. I mean, I have one of these defenders capable of that too, but she was still squishy for most of her climb to 50.

 

Well, Blappers get into melee starting at low levels. I'm not sure that a Melee attack set is necessarily that viable (though it might be if one of the powers included were a mez protection power), but an Assault set that starts with a couple of ranged attacks to cover early levels where range is really a defense, and then switches to melee for the back 5-6 powers would be pretty workable.

[Carnifax]

5 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Pretty sure that doesn't apply to a 12th Level Defender though; the game was originally designed to be a slow progress without a rush to 50 and multiple purple sets. I mean, I have one of these defenders capable of that too, but she was still squishy for most of her climb to 50.

On live I had a Kin/Elec. I remember in a Hollows team someone was like "why is our healer in beside the tank".

 

The Tank said "He's a Kin/Elec. He's my buddy for the mosh pit". I liked that Tank 😀

[Bill Z Bubba]

As I said in another thread, yes please to a new assault/debuff(and/or buff) archetype where the debuffs are pbaoe-centric and act as armor. Yes, the AT will need some kind of functional mez protection.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[siolfir]

To answer the question: no, there's no reason (beyond "that's how it's always been done"), especially for Dominators (who have a scale 1.05 melee modifier). I'll even point to Earth Assault as an example of an Assault set with more melee attacks than ranged with 3 melee attacks (SM, HM, SS), 1 PBAoE click (Tremor), 1 PBAoE damage aura (Mud Pots), 2 80' ranged attacks (Stone Spears and Hurl Boulder), and a 20' "ranged" AoE (Fissure) that barely reaches outside of the damage aura... so someone else has clearly thought of this before.

 

 

[chi1701]

17 minutes ago, siolfir said:

To answer the question: no, there's no reason (beyond "that's how it's always been done"), especially for Dominators (who have a scale 1.05 melee modifier). I'll even point to Earth Assault as an example of an Assault set with more melee attacks than ranged with 3 melee attacks (SM, HM, SS), 1 PBAoE click (Tremor), 1 PBAoE damage aura (Mud Pots), 2 80' ranged attacks (Stone Spears and Hurl Boulder), and a 20' "ranged" AoE (Fissure) that barely reaches outside of the damage aura... so someone else has clearly thought of this before.

 

 

Need to remember that damage modifier is only as good as the base damage. Nova forms have a 1.2 damage modifer for ranged attacks but with a an overall base damage and damage scale.

[siolfir]

Just now, chi1701 said:

Need to remember that damage modifier is only as good as the base damage. Nova forms have a 1.2 damage modifer for ranged attacks but with a an overall base damage and damage scale.

I'm aware. But Stone Mallet (scale 1.64, tied with Hurl Boulder), Heavy Mallet (2.28), and Seismic Smash (3.56) are the hardest hitting attacks in Stone Melee, and Dominators get a damage scale boost on their versions of Heavy Mallet (2.76) and Hurl Boulder (2.28 instead of 1.64) compared to Stone Melee, so if anything the argument supports it even further.

 

More to the point of what I was getting at: Earth Assault has 5 of 9 powers in Stone Melee, and almost all of the replacements are very close alternatives: Fault -> Fissure (damage AoE instead of stun, same range and animation, likely a balance decision not to provide another fast-recharging AoE stun to control AT), Stone Fist -> Stone Spears (same damage but at long range, slightly longer animation), Build Up -> Power Up (adds less +dam, adds +special instead of +tohit), Taunt-> Mud Pots (doesn't line up as well, but Mud Pots is a taunt aura for Tankers/Brutes). Similar changes could be made to other melee powersets to provide more Assault sets.