Discussion: Improvements to the Warriors

[Cutter]

If there are in fact some lowbie Warriors hanging out in the Hollows (I don't spend near enough time there to know for sure!), it would be easy* to add some spawns down in the SE corner where the Legacy Chain dorks can be found chilling & engaging with CoT.

*I don't know from easy

 

(As an aside, can we remove some of the billion-and-one villain groups from the Hollows while we're at it? Outcasts, Trolls, CoT, Igneous & Legacy Chain is already a lot -- the "recent" (in game life time) addition of Hellions, Skulls and Lost feels like overkill and takes away from the flavour of the zone. Plus those groups already have a hazard zone to call their own in PP; do they really need to be in another? IMO of course.)

Edited March 15, 2021 by Cutter
thoughts

[Burk]

2 hours ago, Cutter said:

(As an aside, can we remove some of the billion-and-one villain groups from the Hollows while we're at it? Outcasts, Trolls, CoT, Igneous & Legacy Chain is already a lot -- the "recent" (in game life time) addition of Hellions, Skulls and Lost feels like overkill and takes away from the flavour of the zone. Plus those groups already have a hazard zone to call their own in PP; do they really need to be in another? IMO of course.)

 

I second this, if only because it would make the "Defeat x Outcast" and "Defeat x Trolls" less annoying when all the outcast and trolls spawns in the early areas have been replaced with Lost.

[wjrasmussen]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:57 AM, Piecemeal said:

As the Warriors show their age, the time has come to consider revisiting their aesthetic and their challenge to players.

 

I have begun the ideation of their design and revamping their power selection with new mechanics to make them more interesting to fight.

 

Currently, the following is in the idea phase:

• Power selections expanded
  • Sword, Axe, Mace, Staff, Brawling
  • Willpower, Super Reflexes, Shield
• Greek theme expanded (Lore, designations, weapons)
• New tattoos, faces, and outfits
• New high-level units for expanded gameplay dynamics

Concept

• The Warriors have been in sort of a middling state since forever (Subjective: My opinion)
  • Their look and powers are both... very uninspiring
    • I want to maintain the majority of their aesthetic while diversifying how they look from unit to unit
      • This includes weapons and outfits. Camo pants and torn jeans are still on the aesthetic outlook, as are sleeveless jackets and tees
      • Weapons should have a few different looks per type
    • Jackets, tattoos, headbands, gloves, boots, potentially lightly armored in some cases
• Odysseus not only has a warehouse full of relics, but he uses some, like Fists of Vulcan
  • While current feedback has already suggested not to turn them into New Hellions, I am hopeful to develop a plot in which this idea is presented, challenged, and resolved
  • Anything 'betraying' their natural-ness will be considered and resolved. In the end, I believe that the Warriors need to fill a niche of what normal humans can do with little to no magical cheat-codes.

What I would like to ask the playerbase is a wishlist of do's and don'ts, such as:

• Can you include this, this or this?
• Can you expand upon, clarify, or update this lore bit?
• No silly hats, spandex, or Viking horns
• No slap-on basic bandaid parts from the player geometries without heavy modification to make unique.

Please remember that this thread comes with no guarantees of anything. I'm still in the idea phase and any number of things could keep this from achieving fruition. Keep your hype levels... low.

How about we start with calling them changes.  Improvements aren't certain here.

[BBBadger]

Well, I know some people have Praetorian fatigue from when Live happened, but Praetoria's evacuation could play a part in the Warrior's expansion. That's because one of the Resistance people was supposedly Odysseus Praetorian counterpart. Not only that, but the counterpart apparently died in Praetoria - only to return to the land of the living. Now, maybe there is an idea where Praetoria's Odysseus did actually die when the world thought he did - only afterwards, he stumbled upon a new sort of Warriors - the Black Knights. He served with them in Night Ward, escaped eventually, and returned to Praetoria proper before evacuating to Primal Earth with the rise of Hamidon.

 

I just think the Black Knights and the Warriors share some similarities. And the Praetorian Odysseus bringing them somewhat into the fold of the Warriors in some capacity would be interesting. Or - I dunno - the Praetorian Odysseus was able to bring some Night Ward Animus Arcana to Primal Earth and those are the new weapons the Warriors are using. I do believe the Animus Arcana had staffs and swords amongst its minions. 

Though! Now that I think about it, we could just forget using the Praetorian Odysseus altogether and just focus on Primal Earth Odysseus enslaving the Animus Arcana that escaped to Primal Earth. Since they aren't human - some aren't even corporal - Odysseus could just view them as a resource to possess instead of sentient spells and artifacts. 

 

A lot of cool options here. 

[Cutter]

As an addendum to Warrior weapon choices (and cause I'm playing through Striga right now & noticed), they do have range currently, wielding both bows and crossbows. Nice simple weapons. So maybe they don't need spears too? Just a few more cross/bow attack options?

[Techwright]

In a broad sense, I'll agree with some other comments I've read that having some sort of outfit insignia of rank would be appropriate to these guys.  Would colored berets be an option?  For that matter, do costumes extend so far as to allow them to wear trophies from battles past? Clockwork parts, Circle of Thorn costume bits, etc.  It would kind of be the concept of mythological Hercules wearing the Nemean lion's skin.

 

How about adding a dash power to the Warriors?  I'm not talking super speed, more like taking the Council warwolves ability to cover ground quickly and modifying it for a brief dash for highly trained warriors.  Close ground before opponents are prepared.  For that matter, is there an NPC version (or similar) of shield charge?  Rather than charge with a shield, charge in with an axe or sword before players might react.

 

Crazy thought: Would Warriors have a deep respect for an animal of power, to the point of occasionally having a trained one in a mob?  I know there are NPC opponent canines and big cats out there, though their wire frames might need reskinning.

 

Are there NPC options for something as crazy as a bola attack?  I could see throwing the weighted cord as a natural origin immobilization tactic.

 

And speaking of immobilization, can you give the guys using fist fighting a chance on some powers for a targeted nerve hit creating temporary hold or immobilization?

 

 

[Biff Pow]

Probably too much work, but a Coney Island-inspired outdoor mission map.

[Take One]

3 hours ago, Techwright said:

Would Warriors have a deep respect for an animal of power, to the point of occasionally having a trained one in a mob? 

 

I could definitely see them using trained dogs and even lions.

[Take One]

4 hours ago, Cutter said:

So maybe they don't need spears too?

 

The mobs that don't have bows/crossbows could have spears, like the Cimerorans. A higher ranking archer mob could use some trick archery to debuff, reaching nearly Tsoo Sorcerer levels of annoyance.

[Take One]

5 hours ago, BBBadger said:

Odysseus Praetorian counterpart.

 

Now that's a man with a beard another man might be proud to follow into battle.

[KC4800]

Much like you did with the Vahzilok, make a new mission arc with a badge that tells the story of the newly revamped  "Ultra Warriors".

[InfamousBrad]

My main issue with the Warriors isn't with their looks or their powersets, it's that I feel like they're terribly under-written -- other than a throw-away reference in one line in one of the clues for The Bonefire Plot, and an even tinier throw-away reference in the Frostfire arc, we know almost nothing about how they fit into the magical-crime ecosystem of Paragon City.

 

Now that the tip missions and the Moritmer Kal strike force establish that the Warriors and Odysseus are still major players at late as level 40, I feel like we need something that addresses the question of what Odysseus is hoarding magical artifacts FOR. I can see four possibilities:

1. Stealing magical artifacts from group A and selling them at a huge markup to group B, then stealing them back from group B and ransoming them back to group A, is a really good way to get rich in a town where criminals all want to be super-criminals. (This is, I think, what the original devs had in mind?)
2. Odysseus has some long-term plan to conquer the city/country/world that's going to require an army's worth of magical weaponry. (Boring.)
3. Back before the Hollowing of Eastgate resulted in the world getting flooded with Oranbegan artifacts, the fact that Odysseus owned one magical artifact, the Fighting Codex of Alexander the Great, made him a power player. Since the Hollowing, he's been playing defense, and would be a bit player if he weren't also rich. (Also boring, but it would explain why he isn't in the end-game.) Or my personal favorite ...
4. Odysseus started out as a small-time artifact dealer and smuggler with a street gang but found out that the Circle of Thorns and the Banished Pantheon have entirely separate plans to destroy the world. That would suck for Odysseus, because the world is where all his money is. As more and more of his attention has gone into keeping artifacts out of the hands of the CoT and the BanPan, without him realizing it, he's turning into an anti-hero -- still a smuggler and a thief, still corrupt, but fighting his own separate war against even worse villains.

I don't want to see his goons upgraded all that much in appearance or armament or powers; I want them to stay goons. (Again, see the "cottage" rule.) Passive stat boosts making them harder to hit, and harder hitting, as you go up? Absolutely. But I want them to stay a street gang and I want their ties to "respectable businessman" Odysseus to be something that the heroes never entirely prove to the public and the law.

 

What I want in a story arc about him in the 30-44 range is to see what his actual game is. I want to see him using weak power (and superior training and metric boatloads of money) to defend himself from the ultimately more powerful CoT and BanPan, while fending off the rising Tsoo. I want to see why he doesn't show up at all in the Envoy of Shadows arc, let alone the new Dark Astoria storyline. I want to know how his story ended.

[Cutter]

Off the topic of revamping mobs, but still re: The Warriors... They need more content!

 

Back to my last comment about running through Striga: I realized that despite them having a significant street presence in the starting zone, they feature in exactly ONE mission, being Steph's arc finale. And outside of a couple one-shot contact missions (plus the Alexander micro-arc), they are very under-represented in the city at large.

 

In Striga, as Steph presents them as the "rough 'n tumble good ol' boys" that she grew up with, and are now being pushed around by the Council, it would be cool to see more missions featuring them pushing back. (Or being saved - perhaps instead of saving Family from Council, could be rescuing Warriors from Council?)

 

In the city proper, this little piece of lore from the Wiki feels ripe for exploration:

Quote

After making a deal with a demon prince, David Odysseus Hill formed one of the most powerful gang forces in Paragon City. In fact, he now leads the coalition of gangs known as Smuggler's Run. All of the Warriors gain power by drinking from an ancient mystical urn given to Odysseus by the demon. It is whispered around Paragon City that the urn is connected to the Well of the Furies. With his own highly trained fighting force adding the muscle provided by the Hellions and Outcasts, this group is a threat to take over all gang activity in Paragon City.

Sure wish we could see more of this. "Warrior takeover" zone event anyone?

[starro]

I don’t know if this fits, but not only a short story arc, improved powers/appearance  but a zone event?

 

Warriors want war with other groups to prove their superiority.  The new and improved Warriors periodically descend on TBD zone to break things, rampage and heroes/villains must band together to disperse the onslaught.

 

[rookery.]

Them taking over a city zone or part of one...Talos island maybe?

 

Also, is there any reason The Warriors couldn't use Titan Weapons? The upper eschelons being ableto actually use buster swords or mino axes.

[Doc_Scorpion]

49 minutes ago, InfamousBrad said:

My main issue with the Warriors isn't with their looks or their powersets, it's that I feel like they're terribly under-written -- other than a throw-away reference in one line in one of the clues for The Bonefire Plot, and an even tinier throw-away reference in the Frostfire arc, we know almost nothing about how they fit into the magical-crime ecosystem of Paragon City.

 

48 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Off the topic of revamping mobs, but still re: The Warriors... They need more content!

 

Back to my last comment about running through Striga: I realized that despite them having a significant street presence in the starting zone, they feature in exactly ONE mission, being Steph's arc finale. And outside of a couple one-shot contact missions (plus the Alexander micro-arc), they are very under-represented in the city at large.

Kind of this...   We don't (IMO) need Neo-Warriors or schisms or anything like that.   Upgrades to design and units can be treated just like the Rikti upgrades, it just happens one day.  What we need are story arcs exploring their story and building on their existing lore.  And some explanations, or at least hints, of Odysseus' larger/longer term goals.

Of course, he doesn't actually have to have larger/longer term goals that make sense.  (In terms of the usual goals of supervillains.)  Maybe he just kinda stumbled into the role, and now the whole thing has a life of it's own.  Maybe he's riding a tiger and simply can't get off...

Maybe, one day, he's frustrated at some business stuff that he'd just as soon handle more, ah, directly.  "Boss, I know some guys" says his ever loyal bodyguard (who has a questionable background of his own, maybe he's from Striga, one of those "boys")...  "But yah gotta act the part to earn their respect.  They don't give a rat about money or celebrity stuff."  And then he discovers he likes that role.

A businessman who is corrupted rather than corrupt.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Doc_Scorpion

[Piecemeal]

The Signature Story arcs may be hard to find, but remember that they also exist, and Odysseus and the Warriors played a part in SSA2, meaning that they are involved in current plot as of shutdown.

[Cutter]

34 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

The Signature Story arcs may be hard to find, but remember that they also exist, and Odysseus and the Warriors played a part in SSA2, meaning that they are involved in current plot as of shutdown.

Apologies for going off-topic on this reply, but this only highlights the need for a much more robust contact- and mission-finder system. Cause currently when I'm in my 20's and use "Find Contact" and see eighty billion hits in First Ward & Night Ward, and 2 dudes in Talos plus a random origin contact (who often doesn't match my hero's origin), that's an issue. I know I'm missing stuff but I don't know what it is or where to find it.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Cutter
acknowledging the off topic

[Paradox Fate]

Figure Odysseus would have not taken the Rise of the Incarnates and his defeat during the Mortimer Kal Strike Force so well, as it probably diminishes his power of influence with his group since we have gained a much higher level of power than he and his Warriors ever will.

 

I can think he would dabble in more artifacts that have been somehow connected to the Well of Furies in a more drastic attempt to re-establish themselves and have his more bold men volunteer to see how they react towards it, with varying amounts of success.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Paradox Fate

[Piecemeal]

45 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Apologies for going off-topic on this reply, but this only highlights the need for a much more robust contact- and mission-finder system. Cause currently when I'm in my 20's and use "Find Contact" and see eighty billion hits in First Ward & Night Ward, and 2 dudes in Talos plus a random origin contact (who often doesn't match my hero's origin), that's an issue. I know I'm missing stuff but I don't know what it is or where to find it.

 

The Meta Contact was perma-pinned to the top of the missions window and it was widely panned as obtrusive. It was removed, but there really should be a better system outside Ouroboros.

[Goldengod]

This is exciting, looking forward to the updates and ideas.  I like the idea of new weapons and new looks, that unlock with badges, or just new badges!  I've always thought we should see some higher level versions of the lower villain groups (Warriors, Hellions, Skulls).  Maybe we could see the new updated versions of the Warriors in Kallisti Warf?  Or maybe they made it to Cimerora, somehow?

[Fade]

Here's my two cents: Spanky's Boardwalk is a very cool but very underutilized area of Talos Island. It's always been one of my favorite areas of the city - not for the reality of what it is, but for the possibility of what it could be. I would really love to see it get a bit of a touch-up alongside the Warriors, with a bit of added detail to bring it in line with some great zones added after the game's release like the Faultline revamp. It seems like an ideal base of operations for them, and could be the location of any new contacts, new mission maps, or both. Plus, as Supertanker added:
 

22 hours ago, Supertanker said:

Probably too much work, but a Coney Island-inspired outdoor mission map.

Thematically it fits with the The Warriors movie.

[oedipus_tex]

It's just impossible for me to see this enemy group in game without picturing something very late 70s/early 80s, and I'd love to see you expand on that, this idea that they are "stuck in the past."

 

I assume most people have seen the late 70s movie that this enemy group is almost certainly a send up of. The name and likelinesses are too similar to be a coincidence including the fact that the Warriors movie is based on a book that is roughly based on a Greek legend. The video below kind of gets into that, and talks about some other oddball things about the origins of the 70s/80s punk aesthetic.

 

 

 

I guess a question worth asking is "Does The Warriors movie exist in City of Heroes universe?" If it does then surely this enemy group is either based on it, or its loosely based on them, or they know about it and have some kind of feelings. 

 

One thing I've always liked about this group in game is the high camp aspect. A lot of enemy groups seem pretty self serious but this one was obviously a joke. 

 

If you can somehow marry the Greek/Roman elements with late 70s chic I'd be in awe. I'm talking gladiators in knee socks and soldiers in booty shorts. Let's make it happen.

 

There are some additional thematic pointers here: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/555577/the-warriors-things-to-look-for

Edited March 17, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[golstat2003]

On 3/14/2021 at 1:17 PM, dnomad333 said:

IIRC, the Warriors were based on the 1979 film of the same name. For the most part I would rather not deviate too far from that idea, so staying somewhat true that theme appeals to me.

That being said, updating weapons, giving the members access to newer 'natural' power sets, seems like a good idea. The only thing I'm concerned about is a radical change.

I never knew that movie came out on my birth year!!! Okay, carry on with the great suggestions thread. 🙂 

[EmperorSteele]

I had a thought.

 

If we're revamping the Warriors, who base themselves on ancient Greeks and Romans, then maybe looking at those cultures can give a bit more inspiration.

 

For instance, the Greeks were one of the first armies to adapt formations and tactics in battle (instead of just "everyone run that way and try to kill them before they kill you"). Revamping the AI in this game to follow suite might be an exercise in futility, BUT giving all Warriors small leadership buffs (Minions give Tactics, LTs give Manuvers, Bosses give Assault; OR, each unit gives a small buff of each type: minions give +1.5% to all three, LTs give 3%, Bosses give 5%),  just might be a suitable substitute. It would also make them a much more formidable threat in large groups.

 

Just an idea!