New salvage for holding large amounts of Influence/Infamy

[Andreah]

I see people mistyping /ah into chat fairly often, I think most people use it, even if not constantly like some of us do.

[merrypessimist]

I admit I didn't read EVERY post in their entirety, but how is this different than just sending a billion inf or two to your global email as attachments?

[CU_Krow]

20 hours ago, merrypessimist said:

I admit I didn't read EVERY post in their entirety, but how is this different than just sending a billion inf or two to your global email as attachments?

I know you said you didn't read every post. Right now its only 2 pages. Few people have brought up how this idea is a better alternative, even in addressing the email piece.

[Zeraphia]

Yeah... this is one of those small but large QOL improvements that I can see being very popular amongst the community. I wholeheartedly support your suggestion and I know of many people who could use it. +1

[CU_Krow]

On 4/4/2021 at 7:56 PM, Zeraphia said:

Yeah... this is one of those small but large QOL improvements that I can see being very popular amongst the community. I wholeheartedly support your suggestion and I know of many people who could use it. +1

Same. I shared it with a discord of individuals who run alot of raid/league contents on the Everlasting server. Quite few of them were supportive of the idea as well & were able to see the benefit,

[Andreah]

Given this recent problem: 

 

 

I think it would be worthwhile to consider this suggestion thread once more.

[Rudra]

Bug is bug. Reported in the thread as such.

[Clave Dark 5]

I'd suggest this overall suggestion is another form of power creep in the game,* but those billion Inf horses are already well out of the barn, I know. 

 

*Sure there were multi-billionaires back on Live too, but I would suggest there's a heck of a lot more today.  This is just the game we run now, and presumably was planned to be this way and is working as intended.

[Andreah]

What recently happened was a bug, yes. And maybe it will be satisfactorily fixed. But it's not the first time the cartwheels and handstands people with a lot of money go through to store it have caused them pain and created work for staff, and it will not be the last time.

 

 

I don't see how it is possibly power creep. Yes, there are many billionaires in the game today, but they are not made more powerful by being allowed to store money outside the market and by making many alts or by clogging the email system, or by hoarding more or less fungible assets which others could be making use of. Billionaires are only going to increase in numbers as time goes on, and I feel it has some degree of value to provide a system which lets them do so in less kludgy ways.

[JasperStone]

On 4/1/2021 at 8:38 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

but, but, I *like* clever auction house bids!

 

My addition to this suggestion that would make it useful to a wider swath of the population is make the denomination an order of magnitude or two lower, so 100mm or even 10mm.  Then it could be useful to the rank and file as well as the top hat and monocle crowd.

Sound idea @Andreah.

I have an inkling that there are people out there who have billions, so yes do it.

I do not and would like at least more options.

[UltraAlt]

On 4/1/2021 at 12:08 AM, Andreah said:

I get it that many players won't understand this problem, but for those of us who run in-game organizations, love to farm, or work the market, or just play a great deal, this is a real annoyance, and would be a great QoL change.

 

With all my running around ...

 

 

I do have billions of influence.

 

 

The billions that I do have is squirreled away in items (enhances, recipes, salvage, card packs, and email) on characters, in bases, on the market, and in email.

 

I'm sure most of you know what the term "mule character" means. A "mule" character is one built for the sole-purpose of carrying loot (in all its variations). I don't have any set "mule" characters at this point, but anyone can make thousands of "mule" characters if they want.

 

 

 

34 enhancements with a sale price of 6 million have a market value of over 2 Billion. You can hold 70 enhancements per character in addition to the 2 billion that they can hold on themselves.

I haven't run into a limit to the number of card packs that a character can hold. I don't think that I have put more than 100 card packs of a type on a character at any one time - that is 1 Billion on its own (and more so if Winter Packs).

 

I'm sure it's easy enough to create the storage salvage that you are talking about, but, if it goes through the Auction House, I'm assuming it would go through the same "payment" for going through the Auction House as any other kind of salvage ... and that is why you propose having the Merit Kiosk do something that it does not do.

 

The Merit Kiosk only sells, it does not buy. (as far as I know)

I don't think it is worth the programing time to add this additional function ot the Merit Kiosk simply to avoid the Auction House fee when that would be a much easier path to implement. 

 

I'm not at the pinnacle of marketing, but I see no need to add an addition type of salvage to hold 1B influence and take time to program the merit Kiosk to serve this function.

They system already allows me to hold billions. I have no idea how many billions (multiple characters will all their auction house slots full of bids and sales, trays full of crafted items for sale, bases full of crafted items for use and sale, email, card packs...etc.) The storage system for billions is already there in the game (even a level 1 can hold 2 billion; Being renamed does not delete "Excelsior Mule 999" or the 2 billion they are carrying.)

 

I don't see this is as QoL thing, more like a convenience for the 2-percenters who already have way more influence than they need ... or, apparently, know what to do with. (Which doesn't include me as I know what to do with my excess influence)

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by UltraAlt
misspelled "convenience"

[Doc_Scorpion]

17 hours ago, Andreah said:

Given this recent problem: 

Folks put bids on the market, and (as designed) the market filled those bids.  That's not a problem, it's the market working exactly as it's designed to work.  That the items shouldn't have existed in the first place is a problem...  But as GM Impervium makes clear, it's now a solved problem.

If you choose to abuse the market for a purpose for which it wasn't designed, the consequences are on you.
 

 

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't see this is as QoL thing, more like a convenience for the 2-percenters who already have way more influence than they need ... or, apparently, know what to do with.

So. Much. This.

And, from my experiences in other games, inventing a way to store up more INF only kicks the can down the road.  They'll be back here in a few weeks or months once again complaining about their inability to store huge quantities of inf.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

[PoptartsNinja]

Just like with traffic, adding capacity doesn't decrease congestion. Adding storage capacity won't decrease your need to store inf, and if you're storing billions of inf the problem is a lack of anything worthwhile for you to spend that inf on. Part of that has to do with how bad the game's IO drop rates are, that a "complete" character often needs to spend half a billion inf or more just to feel capable of attempting the new hard mode content. The amount of effort it takes to farm 3-4 purple IOs on a single character is roughly equivalent to the amount of effort it takes to level from Level 1 to Level 50; but the amount of inf you'll make for that effort is often enough to buy more than just 3-4 purple IOs. I also understand people just like to hoard because bigger numbers make people happy.

 

Now, we can't really have a "throw inf into a hole, get a badge" solution because the moment the last badge is achieved people will stop throwing excess money into a hole. We could add special IOs that are functionally identical to the normal ones but have a special rim and cost 10x as much, but once you've got a character fully kitted out with prestige IOs you're right back to needing storage capacity. Prismatic Aethers were supposed to be a time/inf sink but the number of things you can buy with them are still limited; and because they rely on the AH most of the money spent on them (90%? I forget what percentage the AH takes) stays in the economy.

 

 

Would anything make you want to spend some of your billions of stored inf?

 

Would you spend a variable amount of inf to have one of the generic hero statues in the city replaced with a statue (or statue-sized hologram if that's easier for the devs to program) of your character? Something where you could bid inf on but if someone came along and outbid you they could replace you? I could see that being fun but I could also see that causing bitter rivalries to form. I could also see that eating up a lot of dev time since the server would have to accept costume files and you'd essentially be spending billions of inf to upload your costume.

 

 

Or, what if your new storage option was itself a form of influence sink? Would you still buy 'storage salvage' if it cost more to buy than you could resell it for? Like, let's say one salvage piece cost the maximum amount of inf a character can carry (999,999,999?) but you could only sell it back for 500m? It would give you a safe way to store the inf that didn't wholly rely on the mailbox or the AH, but you'd effectively be paying a luxury tax to do so.

Edited January 24, 2023 by PoptartsNinja

[lemming]

This is all speculation on my part since I'm being lazy and not looking at the Score code, but it seems that influence started life as a signed 32 bit integer and limited to 2b.  If it's now signed, that would allow a possibly easy way to make it 4b.   Since HC did make a lot of the code 64-bit, that number could be increased quite a lot.  However, I'm sure there would be a lot of code to screw with and it is a problem only for a smaller percentage and the ability to suddenly drop a lot more influence would give those with larger pockets and easier time to destabilize the market.

 

And as Poptart mentions, increasing capacity would just make it more likely we'd hit the bigger cap.

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, lemming said:

This is all speculation on my part since I'm being lazy and not looking at the Score code, but it seems that influence started life as a signed 32 bit integer and limited to 2b.  If it's now signed, that would allow a possibly easy way to make it 4b.   Since HC did make a lot of the code 64-bit, that number could be increased quite a lot. 

Changing it depends on where it's stored. If it's in the data structure that defines your character in the database on the server, changing it from a signed int to an unsigned int, or from a 32-bit signed int to a 64-bit signed int, may not be possible without a 'flag day' when that field, and every other field anywhere in the code that can hold an amount of inf, gets changed. If it becomes necessary to roll out the character and item databases, then roll them back in after a schema change, it would make for an extended downtime.

[Andreah]

The 2B influence cap can't easily be solved by changing the data type to a long integer. 

 

I mean, in principle that would do it, but the adverse side effects in the old code base, and the hunting down and changing every piece of logic that currently enforces the 2B cap, or depends on  characters' inf being in that range has always been considered far out of scope compared to the value. 

 

As a long term (now retired) C-developer myself, fewer things bring more chills up your spine that being told to "just change the type to a larger one". C lets you do a lot of unsafe things as a coder, and many coders can't resist doing them from time to time, either deliberately to meet schedule or avoid more complex solutions, or out of being unaware of the danger they're creating at the moment. 

[SeraphimKensai]

Alright I'm willing to offer my services as a private equity security and storage specialist for the game's billionaires. I'll store all their influence, infamy, and information for low low rates.

 

$50 million influence account creation fee, and 0.5% monthly maintenance fee and you can rest soundly know that your funds are protected in a non-secured in-game email with account tracking on a spreadsheet.

 

To open an account today please send at least 1 billion influence to @ParagonCityBank&Trust.

 

Legal Disclaimer: Upon deposit and use of service you void all rights, claims, and endures held by you further referenced as the Depositor to deposited funds in any form of currency. Additionally upon deposit of said funds, you agree to hold harmless SeraphimKensai, @ParagonCityBank&Trust, your neighbors, the nearest elementary school, the color mauve, and grilled cheese sandwiches. Additionally the Depositor surrenders all rights granted to them by any third party including nation of origin and agree to wear a cardboard sign with a hole cut out so the Depositor can insert their head. The sign will be furnished by the Depositor, who shall be responsible for all expenses forthright for any cost related to fulfilling the requirements of this agreement and also SeraphimKensai's student loan payments from today until they are paid in full for all said principal and any accrued interest. The Depositor will take a picture of themselves wearing the aforementioned sign and upload it to the Homecoming Servers forums. Said sign shall read "It would of been smarter to keep my own money". In finality, the preceding agreements are null and void as this is a work of satire and such service does not exist, nor does the account @ParagonCityBank&Trust.

 

Thank you for choosing to do business with Paragon City Bank & Trust.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

$50 million influence account creation fee, and 0.5% monthly maintenance fee and you can rest soundly know that your funds are protected in a non-secured in-game email with account tracking on a spreadsheet.

 

What a deal!

Where do I sign up?!

I know that time is limited and that your prices will have to increase to keep up with the demand!

 

You are providing a great service to THE CITY!

 

Why is your small print so large? I don't want to have to read the small print!

Edited January 25, 2023 by UltraAlt

[lemming]

4 hours ago, Andreah said:

The 2B influence cap can't easily be solved by changing the data type to a long integer. 

 

I mean, in principle that would do it, but the adverse side effects in the old code base, and the hunting down and changing every piece of logic that currently enforces the 2B cap, or depends on  characters' inf being in that range has always been considered far out of scope compared to the value. 

 

As a long term (now retired) C-developer myself, fewer things bring more chills up your spine that being told to "just change the type to a larger one". C lets you do a lot of unsafe things as a coder, and many coders can't resist doing them from time to time, either deliberately to meet schedule or avoid more complex solutions, or out of being unaware of the danger they're creating at the moment. 

Hence my "However, I'm sure there would be a lot of code to screw with" though I didn't account for the DB as well.

 

And yea, I was involved in a 32-64 conversion back in 2001.  Big headache which is another reason I'm impressed with the HC devs.

 

I do think it's more trouble than it's worth, more of a thought experiment.

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, Andreah said:

As a long term (now retired) C-developer myself, fewer things bring more chills up your spine that being told to "just change the type to a larger one".

And even the 'minimal' alteration of changing it from an int to a uint -- fitting in the same 32-bit space -- raises a whole raft of unintended consequences. There has to be all sorts of code checking your inf total to prevent things like spending more than you have -- essentially, any transaction that would make your inf total negative. Changing the field to an unsigned int makes all of that useless -- unless you change all the code for every transaction, where spending more than you had would make your inf total negative (easy to check for), an unsigned int would roll over to maximum -- if you had 10 inf and spent 11, suddenly you'd have four billion inf, because the 'check for negative' code won't work any more.

[lemming]

5 hours ago, srmalloy said:

And even the 'minimal' alteration of changing it from an int to a uint -- fitting in the same 32-bit space -- raises a whole raft of unintended consequences. There has to be all sorts of code checking your inf total to prevent things like spending more than you have -- essentially, any transaction that would make your inf total negative. Changing the field to an unsigned int makes all of that useless -- unless you change all the code for every transaction, where spending more than you had would make your inf total negative (easy to check for), an unsigned int would roll over to maximum -- if you had 10 inf and spent 11, suddenly you'd have four billion inf, because the 'check for negative' code won't work any more.

I took a glance at the score code, and looks like they are already uints at least in the trade code.  (And again note I did say the caveat of a fton of code to check. My background was porting stuff between different OS'.   Nothing is as easy as said is the default.

[Gerswin]

All problems would be solved with a "package slider" that displays an additional inch for each 200 billion invested in it.

[Zepp]

The influence cap is like the 8,192 character cap for Excel formulae. Most people won't notice it, but when you do it is annoying AF...

[golstat2003]

I like the original suggestion. Better than messing with code and the database (which I think is off the table with how small our volunteer team is).

[Yomo Kimyata]

4 hours ago, Gerswin said:

All problems would be solved with a "package slider" that displays an additional inch for each 200 billion invested in it.

 

Smart.  Only pull out enough to win.  The old Milton Berle strategy!