Please revert the Rage change.

[kelly Rocket]

Honestly, the damage loss doesn't bother me at all. I just want the defense crash gone. And I say that as a Brute player.

[SwitchFade]

Having followed this thread, 5 things are now clear.

 

1. The game is free, let's be more polite in our critiques.

 

2. There are solid ideas, the thread is petering out

 

3. Let's let the devs digest this, and get back to us with plans, and be patient, why? See point 1.

 

4. ? ? ?

 

5. Profit.

 

See what I did there? Joking aside, I think we've wrapped up. Let's wait and let the devs get back to us

[Profit]

Yes?

[Midnight Rose]

I thinks SwitchFade has it about right.  If one of the homecoming devs could pop in an give us an update on their thinking on this or when they might make a decision that would be great.

[Bunmaster]

I don't see the need to completely reinvent Rage. Just remove either the dmg or the def debuff. If that cannot be done, then add  a dmg or def buff while the crash is active. Reinventing Rage means reinventing SS. HC devs are regular joes just like us, keeping it simple should be the best course of action.

[Voldine]

I just want to throw my two cents into the ring here and say that it seems obvious based on what can be seen from thread so far that rage was meant to be made a permanent or effectively permanent power. And based on other reading that I've done over the last 12 hours or so just on and off reading this thread while doing other things it seems that before you can make rage permanent it does give you the minus defense and it did back on live, therefore the minus defense before rage is permanent is functioning as intended this has been stated by many people in the thread.

 

It is also readily apparent both from memories and statements made by people in this thread that back on live when reg was stacked it gave the damage reduction crash and the endurance reduction crash but avoided the defense reduction crash as a result partially of a bug in the way the powers system functioned. However because of the fact that the devs decided in the end to not make it so that the defense penalty could be avoided while making sure let's stacking did not avoid the endurance and the Damage reduction penalties it can be assumed that it was never intended in the end for the defense penalty to be implemented if you could go beyond the recharge with the duration so most people are not happy now that the system works perfectly without respecting the original developers and results of having a defense non-crash if the power was stacked because the power system treated the power as if it never ended with regards to the defense crash.

 

Now with the game being handled by a volunteer team keeping the lights on and with that volunteer team having fixed many bugs with the power system with regards to stacking powers people are angry that the power no longer works the way that it did on live and therefore seems to not be functioning as intended anymore especially since it hits defense sets disproportionately hard whereas resist sets are effectively unchanged, however this is ignoring the problem of regen and yes regen has been hit with many many many nerfs and changes and fixes over the years.

 

We therefore need a replacement mitigation crash that has AN impact in normal play that is still easily mitigated in extraordinary situations while maintaining respect to the fact that the vast majority of the game is intended to be balanced around the Single/Hami-Origin enhancements. It should also be an impact that can be mitigated by teammates without requiring teammates.

 

I humbly suggest that the defensive penalty be reduced to -10 % and that there be given a negative 20% resistance(all) debuff in addition to the existing endurance crash and a reduced damage penalty, I would say 50%. 10% is still a non-negligible penalty to defense sets but there needs to be some kind of non-negligible penalty with a power like this resistance does inherently resist resistance debuffs but most defense sets have defense debuff resistance so it mostly evens out and the impact on tankers and brutes in a Solo setting will be felt but it will still be less of an impact than it is currently on sets that are all defense all the time no resistance and it's also balanced around HOs/SOs without factoring in IOs with IOs being the primary source for defense on toons with pure resist powersets. With all due respect to those who will complain, there still needs to be a difference between nogethitsu and nogethurtsu, and both should rightfully be affected by this power if a drawback is deemed necessary.

[SlimPickens]

I think everyone who plays SS can agree, no matter what the solution is, the main issue right now is the set is nigh unplayable from a fun and game flow standpoint. You crash, you have ZERO DAMAGE for 10 secs where you basically get to just pop heals and end boosts to keep your toggles from dropping, and its flat out bad gameplay.

 

The penalties are far too high for rages upsides. -def ruins all that hard work you put into getting softcapped on positional or types def. -end plus, god forbid if hasten crashes at the same time... mean you likely detoggle and die, or at best have to sit there for another minute plus retoggling everything. But he real kicker is ZERO damage... this is a damage dealer, not being able to do what you do for 10 secs (or more because the more rech you have the more crashes you get) every 90 secs just destroys gameplay flow and makes for a supremely boring powerset.

 

Before the rage "fix" it was still bad, and the same issues applied, but now with the triple penalty its just terrible and not even worth enduring anymore, which before was endurable because the performance was at least better.

 

The only thing rage is good for anymore is living up to its name, because it makes me rage at the keyboard while i sit there staring at my pixels not punching anything for 10 secs every minute or so.

 

but in a gaussians build up proc world, rage just cant compete any longer, and furthermore, the poor mechanics make playing it too tedious to enjoy, so a once really flavorful and iconic powerset has been reduced to 2/10 stars- would not recommend status.

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

Again, if you are seriously set back or feeling like it is too much to go click an insp that you should have bought in preparation to the power set you chose, or it is too much to be innovative enough to deal with a mere 10 seconds of -dmg and some -def... Then what you need is a pacifier. Considering I have never had a problem with the crash other than an inconvenience that comes with the set, I am able to actually continue on and kill the mobs and finish whatever I am doing with almost NO noticeable set back in time. It sounds to me like people are dying or getting beat down when rage crashes... which is a build or laziness issue.

Just like the people who weave in and out of traffic cutting people off and speeding through.... You will end up stopped with everyone else at the next light....yet, instead of getting up earlier to avoid having to rush to make it on time, which is the solution... You complain about the timing of the stop lights and how everyone else is driving too slow.... That's how I see this rage topic right now.

 

Also, for those who are struggling and/or are severely affected with the 10 second minor crash from Rage, feel free to send me a message and I would be more than happy to help you with your build.

Edited July 23, 2019 by OldSchool SC Fight Club

[Steampunkette]

The rage crash only really becomes a problem when you're in incarnate trials. By that time you should have bubblers or at least one person out of the 24 who has barrier invocation.

This problem is a non problem.

If you really want to get fancy take barrier invocation yourself. You can get the recharge down real low.

[Vindicator]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

The rage crash only really becomes a problem when you're in incarnate trials. By that time you should have bubblers or at least one person out of the 24 who has barrier invocation.

This problem is a non problem.

If you really want to get fancy take barrier invocation yourself. You can get the recharge down real low.

Your "solution" is a non-solution.  Reference: 99% of this thread.

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

Really, the only people who seem to have the issue in this thread are saying rage makes their character unplayable..... If that is the case... then there is a build problem (which is obviously all depending on rage? For a tank?), or there is an issue with the way it is being played. Done with this thread for sure.... All I know is this, if they took away the dmg and def debuff and gave you milk and cookies instead....like most want... I wouldn't even notice if they did or not...on all 3 of my toons that make use of SS.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, OldSchool SC Fight Club said:

Really, the only people who seem to have the issue in this thread are saying rage makes their character unplayable..... If that is the case... then there is a build problem (which is obviously all depending on rage? For a tank?), or there is an issue with the way it is being played. Done with this thread for sure.... All I know is this, if they took away the dmg and def debuff and gave you milk and cookies instead....like most want... I wouldn't even notice if they did or not...on all 3 of my toons that make use of SS.

It makes them unplayable for 10 sec at a time as you cant deal damage. That isn't fun.

[Sniktch]

19 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It makes them unplayable for 10 sec at a time as you cant deal damage. That isn't fun.

You can taunt.  You can handclap.  You can Judgement.  Procs still work.  Not unplayable, just can't keep spamming damage aside Incarnate - requires you to pay attention to your status and adjust what you're doing.  Most folks just don't want to do that.

[kelly Rocket]

38 minutes ago, Sniktch said:

You can taunt.  You can handclap.  You can Judgement.  Procs still work.  Not unplayable, just can't keep spamming damage aside Incarnate - requires you to pay attention to your status and adjust what you're doing.  Most folks just don't want to do that.

Honestly I always just kept spamming attacks anyway. Works to taunt, and to build fury.

 

I've never been bothered by the -dmg or -end portions of the crash, it's only the -defense that I hate, because it specifically hoses SS/Shield, my favorite combination.

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It makes them unplayable for 10 sec at a time as you cant deal damage. That isn't fun.

When my rage drops, I make use of the permanent sands of mu, nem staff, and the axe to keep dmg to target(s) as they are not affected by the rage debuffs. Since these prestige powers are available to ALL from lvl1...they are a viable solution. Usually by the time Sands and Axe animation has finished, I am back to rage normal mode... There are a dozen ways around the 10 second drop... Saying you can't deal damage is completely incorrect...

 

If ANYTHING needs to be done to rage...the duration extended just a bit longer. This is because just about everyone is able to stack rage with 2 slot SOs at lvl40...and once the stacking starts it does seem like rage is dropping a every minute. To add a little more time to it would allow more up-time when you are overlapping... but really it isn't all that important.

 

Now, if they DID revert to the stacking rule allowing it to negate the -def or -dmg or both.... That would be fine as well I suppose.

Edited July 25, 2019 by OldSchool SC Fight Club

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

Honestly I always just kept spamming attacks anyway. Works to taunt, and to build fury.

 

I've never been bothered by the -dmg or -end portions of the crash, it's only the -defense that I hate, because it specifically hoses SS/Shield, my favorite combination.

And if you overbuild your Defenses a little and keep an Insp combiner script ready, you can side-step the -Def fairly easily.

[Galaxy Brain]

I understand there are powers that are not effected by the damage crash, but other sets do not have to work around that.

 

Like, for a set called "super strength" having a moment every minute or so where you are no longer strong feels off. Titan Weapons, STJ and even MA or Stone melee all can play off your character being super strong physically without stopping. Incarnate judgement aside as all melee sets can pick it up, and for the whole leveling process it is a weird stop to gameplay where you cant use your "strength" every so often. I agree that rage as is needs a downside for how long it lasts, but when given the option I'd rather go for non stop smashing than smashing a bit better then forced to break.

 

Edit: even with stacked rage, where does SS currently sit compared to other melee sets to really warrant the harsh crash? If there are sets that are statistically better even with stacked rage... they do more without a downside.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Stormmage]

I would offer just one observation and one request.

1.  On the observation side:  I don't think there is anything helpful about telling other forum contributors that they are not playing their characters correctly and that you know the correct builds.  It is fine for anyone to share observations about what is more or less fun in the game and how things could be adjusted to be more fun.  This is not a competitive endeavor.  It can be both true that the rage crash is not game breaking and that the 10s damage timeout pointlessly makes SS less fun.  I would also add that in my view it pointlessly adds a penalty to the set that no other melee set possesses.

2.  On the request side:  Would forum contributors consider refraining from rude/snarky comments about how other players would like to play COH.  One of COH's great strengths has been a supportive community.

Best wishes.

[kelly Rocket]

12 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And if you overbuild your Defenses a little and keep an Insp combiner script ready, you can side-step the -Def fairly easily.

A little? It's a -20 defense debuff, unresistable. Nobody builds for 65% defense. And no one should be forced to use insps for their powerset to function properly. SS/Shield is wrecked by that -20 defense debuff. It's probably fine for Tankers who can afford to overbuild that heavily, but Brutes can't really.

 

Having to chew purples to survive automatically disqualifies a set from farming, since to be a really good farmer you need to be able to chew reds instead. SS/Shield was once a great farmer, and now is basically ruined for it.

 

But even outside of farming, again, I still maintain that NO AT or powerset combination should ever be forced to use insps to compensate for problems.

 

I'm fine with leaving Rage as is, except that I do want the defense crash removed. The rest is fine.

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

A little? It's a -20 defense debuff, unresistable. Nobody builds for 65% defense.

 

And for the majority of the game, you don't need 45% Defense every second of every minute of every hour of every day, it's just a Nice to Have.
And "nobody" builds for 65% defense?
Been there.
Done that.
Sent funky postcards.

Now, if you're constantly playing +4x8 or something, then yeah.  Some allowances are needed.
And on many Tanks with layered mitigation, having your Defenses chopped out for *GASP* TEN WHOLE SECONDS isn't a death sentence.
Indeed, on some, like Invuln, where you have Invincibility, if you've built to 45% Defense, with a saturated Invinc, you're sitting at 60% Defense.

My view of this is that this is a mountain being made of a molehill.
The game gives you multiple options for dealing with the Rage crash.
Note the term "option".  Nobody's FORCING you to do ANYTHING.

So I find the assertion "I just shouldn't have to deal with it PERIOD" a bit...disingenuous.


With that, I think I'm done with this discussion.
I'm not seeing any justification more than "I want it this way."

 

[SeraphimKensai]

Seeing as SS is tuned assuming rage is perma stacked once, what about overhauling the power to make it a toggle like Against All Odds, but rather than be based on number of mobs around you, what about inversely based on your hp? That way as you take damage you become more enraged, could even make an option if there is a nearby dead Ally that you become doubly enraged....

 

I figure that would make sense thematically, and because it scales as the battle is going gives you increased damage as you need it, but avoids the burst of buildup to make it still unique.

[Vanden]

On 7/16/2019 at 1:51 PM, Vanden said:

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Rage doesn’t need a huge rework like the ones people keep proposing in this thread.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Is SS with stacked rage the best melee set, deserving of a crash?

[Shadowsleuth]

Can a Rage bar be added to the power, as you use your other attacks the bar fills.

 

Allow Rage to be activated at any time, but if you pop it while the bar is empty the defense debuff still applies, but if you activate it at max or near max the defense debuff is removed.

 

Perhaps add a small amount of +Recharge if the bar activated with a max bar, so you can cycle through your attacks a little quicker.

 

Also don't have the bar degrade like Fury does, so the user has control over when & where to activate Rage with a maxed out bar, so it can be used when it's needed most.

[Teirusu]

18 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

...
My view of this is that this is a mountain being made of a molehill.
...

 

Agreed,

 

I've looked over this thread from time to time and figured I'd add my 2 cents in.  I honestly feel that many people are suffering from negative confirmation bias when it comes to Rage and SS needing this power to function and do decent damage.  I will tell you that you don't.  Yes, smashing damage is pretty heavily resisted in in the high-end, but tell that to /Stone Melee which just has Build Up and people are not clamoring to get Rage on /Stone Melee because of the resisted damage.  That's not to say that /SM doesn't have it's own issues (And is not considered top-end, but is still decent) but it clearly gets by without having Rage.

 

It seems to me that people look at the DPS spreadsheets posted online, then compare sets side-by-side in Mids/Pines and figure, 'Yup, definitely a huuuge reduction of damage across the board!  This set needs Rage!'  And then that colors their experiences negatively while playing the set, if they have.  I can say from my own experiences with both /Stone Melee and /Super Strength that this is just bogus.

 

People shouldn't be doing a side-by-side comparison of sets but, instead, dropping powers that are the same or nearly the same and only compare powers that are majorly different.  With that being said /Stone Melee is the best set to compare /Super Strength against.  Many of the powers are similar but /SM has Build Up and /SS has Rage.  Doing a comparison like this you get:

 

Tremor VS. Footstomp  (Foot stomp is clearly the winner being one of the prime PBAOEs in the game in normal sets.  Tremor is just.. okay)

 

Fault VS. Hand Clap  (Fault clearly wins this one.  /SM was generally designed to have better control then /SS)

 

Seismic Smash VS. Knockout Blow (Seismic wins but not by much.  Both powers do the same damage.  SS has +1 Mag on its hold.  SS also has a 5 second shorter cooldown, but this ends up being around only being a 2 second difference once slotted and with +recharge in the build.  So, not a huge difference here, damage-wise)

 

The reality is, the only two out-liner powers between the two sets are... (Besides Rage and Build Up themselves):

 

Heavy Mallet VS. Jab  

 

And that's it!  Clearly we know that Jab is bad, however, that isn't a fair comparison.  (Note: I haven't taken Jab on my brute)  Jab does have 6 times less cooldown, out-of-the box, while doing 3.3 times less damage for 3.3 times less END.  Sooo, technically you can spam Jab and end up doing the same damage.  You're just spending a bit more animation time to do it.  It is, technically, balanced.

 

But, lets go even further!   Lets pretend that we're not using Jab.  It's not in your tray or you didn't even take it.  If you're not using Jab in your attack rotation but /SM is using Heavy Mallet, what are you replacing Jab with?  What is a basic attack rotation for both sets in the high-end with a decent amount of racharge? 

 

Punch -> Haymaker -> Punch -> Knockout Blow -> Punch -> Foot Stomp -> Punch -> Etc.  (Basically something like this, obviously you're opening with Foot Stomp instead but it pretty much works like that.  Obviously it'll vary depending on the situation as any attack chain does)

 

Stone Fist -> Stone Mallet -> Stone Fist -> Heavy Mallet -> Stone Fist -> Seismic Smash - > Stone Fist -> Etc.  (Again, you'll probably open with Tremor and/or Fault but you're probably not going to use Tremor too much due to that extremely long cast time it has and the less damage in comparison to Foot Stomp)

 

Sooo really, it all boils down to Heavy Mallet VS. Foot Stomp (LOL) when you compare the attack chains of the two sets.  Foot Stomp does 62% of the damage of Heavy Mallet as an AOE.

 

In conclusion, /SS would still be balanced against /SM even if it had Build Up instead of Rage.  It does not even need Rage to not be gimp as some people seem to believe it would be.  People can argue that smashing/lethal damage is too highly resisted some other thread, but the reality is that it shouldn't be a balancing point for or against buffing/fixing Rage.  Honestly, Rage is so OP that even if it was an auto power with half the effectiveness that it has now (Basically worth 1 IO of damage), it would STILL be pretty dang good for /SS. 

 

P.S.  Can we have that auto-power version?  As an alternate power?  I would love that version!  xD