Please revert the Rage change.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

I don't like powers that are so bursty. Even when I take Build-Up I forget to use it.

 

If it were more like 30-60 seconds duration I'd be fine with it, even if it had the same 50% maximum uptime. But I can't be bothered with anything that only lasts 10 seconds.

You can queue up a lot of powers in 10 sec, often enough to wipe a mob as a blaster

[Rylas]

4 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

You can queue up a lot of powers in 10 sec, often enough to wipe a mob as a blaster

Unless, of course, you're playing Energy Melee. 😞 

[Profit]

As this primarily effects def based sets, let's look at exactly what it does to shield defense. I loaded a shield def into mids to get some numbers. This is everything I slotted.

 

Level 49 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1:    Deflection    
 (A) HamiO:Ribosome Exposure
 (3) Defense Buff
 (3) Defense Buff
 (5) Defense Buff
 (13) HamiO:Ribosome Exposure
 (13) HamiO:Ribosome Exposure

Level 1:    Jab    
 (A) Empty

Level 2:    Battle Agility    
 (A) Endurance Reduction
 (5) Defense Buff
 (7) Defense Buff
 (7) Defense Buff

Level 4:    True Grit    
 (A) Resist Damage
 (9) Resist Damage
 (9) Resist Damage

Level 6:    Active Defense    
 (A) Recharge Reduction
 (11) Recharge Reduction
 (11) Recharge Reduction

Level 8:    [Empty]    
Level 10:    [Empty]    
Level 12:    Phalanx Fighting    
 (A) Defense Buff
 (15) Defense Buff
 (15) Defense Buff

Level 14:    [Empty]    
Level 16:    [Empty]    
Level 18:    [Empty]    
Level 20:    [Empty]    
Level 22:    [Empty]    
Level 24:    [Empty]    
Level 26:    [Empty]    
Level 28:    Rage    
 (A) Empty

 

 

Note that I have used SO level enhancements (with a bit of cheating with the Ribos so I could get the res numbers as well). This slotting gives us,

 

42.4% def to Melee/Ranged/AOE (assuming 3 people for phalanx fighting)

23.4% res to S/L/F/C/E/N

 

Now those aren't bad numbers, but when Rage wears off it gives a -20% def to all for 10 seconds. That Lowers the def to 22.4% for melee/ranged/aoe.

 

The def without phalanx fighting is, 23.4% to Melee/Ranged/AOE.

 

So the Rage crash is completely negating one entire power plus change. We shouldn't massively change one power based one outlying powerset however, a small adjust could be very beneficial. Why don't we simply make the def debuff resistable. All the tank sets have debuff resistance, the reasoning for the debuff is that you're exhausted and unable to dodge attacks. But if it's resistable, you are literally fighting through your exhaustion to keep fighting, and we see that in comics all the time. It would be thematic.

 

Additionally we could tie in the damage debuff to the resist and make it so as the debuff is resisted you regain more damage back quicker. Also thematic, and plays into the narrative the through sheer force of will the tanker can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until you are arrested!

 

 

[Myrmidon]

On 8/21/2019 at 8:35 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tossing this here for consideration, this MIGHT go to test in a future time, but wanted to hear some feedback before even going there:

 

Super Strength > Rage:

• Activating Rage while the buff is still up will no longer add a second stack, instead it will increase the duration of the current buff by an additional 120 seconds.
• Example: Use rage when there are 30 seconds left, rage it will now last for 150 seconds.
• No longer has a crash of any kind. No endurance crash, no defense crash, no -dmg crash, nothing. Letting rage expire and continue to attack without using it again would be it's own penalty.

You know, after so many pages of reading this thread, if this went live today, we could use the “Tears of Stacking Rage SS Users” to create an elixir that would render the imbiber immortal...

 

 

I really do want that immortality elixir.

[Captain Powerhouse]

About my previous post: I didn’t mean to state that was a direction we were aiming for. It was an idea and wanted to gather some thoughts on it. At this point it has been discarded.

 

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

 

As for rage: nothing that gets proposed will ever make everyone happy, but here is another thought for consideration, one that is more likely to hit Justin at some point:

 

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

 

Anyone that feels the crash is worth the penalty, can set it to auto and make it recharge as fast as they feel like it. 

[Vanden]

19 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

That's disappointing to hear that Equivalent Powers may never see the light of day, but I still believe in the idea!

[Myrmidon]

50 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

About my previous post: I didn’t mean to state that was a direction we were aiming for. It was an idea and wanted to gather some thoughts on it. At this point it has been discarded.

 

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

 

As for rage: nothing that gets proposed will ever make everyone happy, but here is another thought for consideration, one that is more likely to hit Justin at some point:

 

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

 

Anyone that feels the crash is worth the penalty, can set it to auto and make it recharge as fast as they feel like it. 

POWERHOUSE!

My elixir!

POWERHOUSE!

 

 

 

 

 

(I look forward to testing the idea).

[Profit]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

About my previous post: I didn’t mean to state that was a direction we were aiming for. It was an idea and wanted to gather some thoughts on it. At this point it has been discarded.

 

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

 

As for rage: nothing that gets proposed will ever make everyone happy, but here is another thought for consideration, one that is more likely to hit Justin at some point:

 

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

 

Anyone that feels the crash is worth the penalty, can set it to auto and make it recharge as fast as they feel like it. 

That's a nice way to handle it.

[DSorrow]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

I like this.

[Haijinx]

I would suggest dropping the -dmg, the -def, and allowing only single stacks.  Keep the END crash. 

 

Then adjust jab and punch (longer recharge, more damage) so they aren't so pitiful. 

 

The only argument I can see for double stacked rage is basically - "Cause we always could" 

 

  

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Haijinx

[Warlawk]

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

Just wanted to throw my 2 inf in and say that this would be a FANTASTIC solution! It maintains the original feel and intent of the set while allowing those who like it to have access to the high risk/reward play style.

...

So... I just blew my own mind and I feel quite impressed with myself for this idea. Of course, that means it's probably already been brought up, or I'm just way more tired than I thought and it actually isn't that good an idea.

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

What if... instead of mutual exclusive powers it was treated like Staff Mastery or Adaptation where a single power selection grants access to multiple sub powers which are then exclusive from each other? Allow rage to be slotted as it is now and the two (more?) sub powers inherit the slotting of the parent power. With Adaptation and Staff mastery we have 3 sub powers, the same could be done for rage. A standard 10/90 sec build up power, a 120/120 crashless rage clicky which cannot benefit from recharge, and rage as it exists now, fully stackable with the crash.

 

Thoughts? I don't know if the code would even support that kind of a branching out from the existing powers that work that way... but it sounds neat to me!

EDIT: Totally forgot about this functionality being in Dual Pistols as well (the first instance of it I think?) ... poor Dual Pistols just gets no love.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Warlawk

[kelly Rocket]

4 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

I think this is a shame, tbh. There's a lot of things that could be improved with it, and I personally would love to have more options in general 😄

[Rylas]

9 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler.

Bummer, but understandable.

9 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

Simple and brilliant. For a my tanker, who doesn't bother with stacking Rage, this would be awesome. Would the crash still include the -Def? 

[Galaxy Brain]

No crash on "normal" use sounds great! 

 

On the same note, maybe the t1 and t2 could be brought up to par to round out SS? 🙂

[William Valence]

13 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

As for rage: nothing that gets proposed will ever make everyone happy, but here is another thought for consideration, one that is more likely to hit Justin at some point:

 

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

Would it be possible to also test an alternative mitigation crash at the same time?

 

If you swap the -def for a resistable -resist, then you can better control the amount of extra damage taken by the crash. And do it in a way that is equal for both defense sets and resistance sets. It should only fail if cumulative -resist exceeds -300%.

[Captain Powerhouse]

I dont have any current plans to change the type of crash, but should it change, it will continue to be irresistible on any form it takes.

[Vindicator]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

On the same note, maybe the t1 and t2 could be brought up to par to round out SS? 🙂

This!

[TheAdjustor]

On 8/21/2019 at 9:35 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tossing this here for consideration, this MIGHT go to test in a future time, but wanted to hear some feedback before even going there:

 

Super Strength > Rage:

• Activating Rage while the buff is still up will no longer add a second stack, instead it will increase the duration of the current buff by an additional 120 seconds.
• Example: Use rage when there are 30 seconds left, rage it will now last for 150 seconds.
• No longer has a crash of any kind. No endurance crash, no defense crash, no -dmg crash, nothing. Letting rage expire and continue to attack without using it again would be it's own penalty.

That would be great double stacked rage was fun but it really was too much(spoken as an abuser on live). This sounds like a Goldilocks fix.

[12thPower]

14 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

As for rage: nothing that gets proposed will ever make everyone happy, but here is another thought for consideration, one that is more likely to hit Justin at some point:

 

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

 

Anyone that feels the crash is worth the penalty, can set it to auto and make it recharge as fast as they feel like it. 

Please, please not this. A button that wants my attention, but which I'm not supposed to click? And if I invest in recharge bonuses, it's going to be there until I do click it? I'm going to have anxiety over accidentally clicking Rage when it's already active.

 

You want to balance a single buff for two different groups (Tanks and DPS). Impossible. As a Tanker, I just want to be able to enjoy Super Strength without a defense crash. This weird, social engineering "don't click me!" ring is not the way, but I have an idea for you.

 

Super Strength Stances!

Defensive Stance -- Rage grants a greatly reduced damage buff, still stacks with high recharge if you have it, but no longer has a defense crash.

Offensive Stance -- Rage behaves like it does on the Homecoming live servers, defense crash included.

 

Stance cannot be changed while Rage is active.

Edited August 30, 2019 by 12thPower

[William Valence]

8 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I dont have any current plans to change the type of crash, but should it change, it will continue to be irresistible on any form it takes.

I'm going to attempt to convince you that's a bad idea, fully aware I may not succeed. But that's ok.

 

If the debuff is a -def debuff then it is more punitive to defense sets than resistance sets. Additionally the amount of extra damage taken is inconsistent.

 

If the debuff is a -res debuff that can't be resisted, you've done the same thing, but just traded punishing resist sets more than defense sets.

 

If the debuff is a resistable -res then you can say how much more damage you want a player to take, and have it remain consistent without regard to type of mitigation used.

 

Example:

 

2000 damage thrown vs softcap comes out to 100 damage taken through 2000 * (.5 - .45)

2000 damage vs capped resist comes out to 100 damage taken through 2000 * .5 *  (1 - .9)

2000 damage vs softcap def and current crash 500 damage taken through 2000 * (.5 - .25)

2000 damage vs capped resist and current crash 140 damage taken through 2000 * (.5 - -.20) * (1 - .9)

2000 damage vs 64% resist and current crash 504 damage taken through 2000 * (.5 - -.20) * (1 - .64)

 

Swap to a resistable -resist and the effect hit's both more equally. Lets say you want it to cause the player to take 50% more damage so the crash becomes -50% resist:

 

2000 damage vs softcap def and new crash comes out to 150 damage taken through 2000 * (.5 - .45) * (1 - -.5)

2000 damage vs capped resist and new crash comes out to 150 damage taken through 2000 * .5 * (1 - (.9 - ((1 - .9) * -.5)))

2000 damage vs 64% resist and new crash comes out to 540 damage taken through 2000 * .5 * (1 - (.64 - ((1 - .64) * -.5))) Compared to 360 damage taken without crash 540/360= 1.5

2000 damage vs 32% def and new crash comes out to 540 damage taken through 2000 * (.5 - .32) * (1 - -.5) compared to 360 damage taken without crash

 

This even works for other values of -resist, so long as the debuff is resistable it is applied equally. You could have it do double damage, a -100% resist debuff. It should still work. Players can't resist these debuffs 100%, and their ability to resist is proportionate to their damage resist itself so the math works out as the damage resist and debuff values change.

[Megajoule]

Yes, let's be fair. Make it crash -def, -res, -end and -dam. Make it what it was clearly intended to be, an enforced time-out.

 

(Now that I have proposed cleaving the baby in twain quarters, let's see how everyone responds...)

[MunkiLord]

39 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

Yes, let's be fair. Make it crash -def, -res, -end and -dam. Make it what it was clearly intended to be, an enforced time-out.

 

(Now that I have proposed cleaving the baby in twain quarters, let's see how everyone responds...)

If this means I can play an SS Scrapper I'm all for it. 

[Haijinx]

I think a lot of these suggestions are becoming too jumbled and complex.  

 

Seems like a lot of knots to twist in just to keep double stacked Rage.

 

Interestingly the AT that becomes the more broken with 2xrage, is the same one most hurt by the penalties.  

 

That at least seems more fair.

 

The OP was arguing for no def penalty 2x rage btw.

[William Valence]

39 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

Yes, let's be fair. Make it crash -def, -res, -end and -dam. Make it what it was clearly intended to be, an enforced time-out.

 

(Now that I have proposed cleaving the baby in twain quarters, let's see how everyone responds...)

My implementation is simpler, and is as fair as is possible to both mitigation types. No need to cleave babies, unless you're a redsider.

[Kimuji]

I don't find it very fair/balanced to have absolutely zero crash for a single Rage and a big one for stacked Rages. Let's not forget that rage gives a +20% To Hit on top of damage, it's not a minor detail. No other set gets such an important permanent accuracy buff, a simple instance of Rage running is already a significant bonus that can't hardly be given for free. So I still believe that a small crash ( -dmg and maybe -end) for 1 rage and the big current crash for 2 rages is still the most balanced option. And let's not forget that 2 rages means 2 crashes, it can't be none at all for 1 rage. Only one small crash every 2 minutes for 1 rage  compared to one big crash every minute for stacked rages seems like a pretty good deal.
 

And I don't like the idea of giving Super Strength to scrappers (or stalkers). SS is an iconic Tankers and Brutes powerset, it's the epitome of the big guy's powers. Its proliferation would only weaken the flavor and difference between ATs.

And this is not bad for a set allegedly 'unfun' and broken set:

Edited August 31, 2019 by Kimuji