Homecoming Code of Conduct Update - May 13th, 2021

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

The same logic could be applied to the players who don't wish to be viewed or record while in a public place. I sure wouldn't like it if I was trying to take a picture in front of Mt. Rushmore and somebody who doesn't want to be recorded or photographed kept jumping in my frame.

 

I disagree. The Don't-Wannas are just going about their own business, playing the game. They aren't the ones doing the broadcasting or intentionally mugging for the proverbial camera.  The streamer is the active agent here. The game supposedly being seen as "public space" doesn't change that. 

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

I disagree. The Don't-Wannas are just going about their own business, playing the game. They aren't the ones doing the broadcasting or intentionally mugging for the proverbial camera.  The streamer is the active agent here. The game supposedly being seen as "public space" doesn't change that. 

What you said about the "Don't-Wannas" is a fair assumption, that I agree with - but I am of the opinion it should be applied equally to everyone. 

 

I may have derailed this thread enough with discussion outside what is currently written in the ToS, Privacy Policy, and Code of Conduct. I will continue to say this, however - folks who choose to login have to know what those agreements say because they are asked to consent to those terms every time they log in. They aren't agreeing or disagreeing with my opinions or other players opinions, or having philosophical discussion on content generation and privacy in an interconnected world. I think it is moot to say it is one way is more right over the other, but that it probably due to the nature of internet forums. 

 

Here's to hoping everyone is excellent to each other!

[GraspingVileTerror]

I think a bright green STREAMING (possibly with little pulsing Red dot, for added effect) could be a really nifty addition.  Good thinking, @Coyotedancer!

Streamers would still have to self-select in to this, and it does potentially paint a target on them for photo-bombers and people seeking their 15-seconds of "fame" . . . but . . . yeah.

I like that idea!

Did you want to post it in the Suggestions board, or would you rather someone else do so, 'Dancer?

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I think a bright green STREAMING (possibly with little pulsing Red dot, for added effect) could be a really nifty addition.  Good thinking, @Coyotedancer!

Streamers would still have to self-select in to this, and it does potentially paint a target on them for photo-bombers and people seeking their 15-seconds of "fame" . . . but . . . yeah.

I like that idea!

Did you want to post it in the Suggestions board, or would you rather someone else do so, 'Dancer?

 

It comes up as a suggestion every few months it seems, more so recently with the change in stance on streaming by the HC volunteers:

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

For those who don't purview the HC Discord, added background on the topic below (see middle of image I believe):

 

[Miss Magical]

I think that streaming without notifying players might have a positive effect on the community by moderating toxic behavior. People generally behave themselves more in public, and someone might think twice before sending a rude tell or sabotaging a Lambda badge run if they are aware that their actions could potentially be recorded or seen by an audience of thousands. I wouldn't oppose a "Streaming" notification, but only if it was fully optional.

[Hedgefund]

53 minutes ago, Miss Magical said:

I think that streaming without notifying players might have a positive effect on the community by moderating toxic behavior. People generally behave themselves more in public, and someone might think twice before sending a rude tell or sabotaging a Lambda badge run if they are aware that their actions could potentially be recorded or seen by an audience of thousands. I wouldn't oppose a "Streaming" notification, but only if it was fully optional.

 

Allow me to introduce you to The Internet, specifically social media.

[Glacier Peak]

15 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

Allow me to introduce you to The Internet, specifically social media.

Though the relation to publicity and anonymity on the internet varies to the extreme, this made me laugh.

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

I sure wouldn't like it if I was trying to take a picture in front of Mt. Rushmore and somebody who doesn't want to be recorded or photographed kept jumping in my frame.

<selects photographer's cap, places it on head at a jaunty angle>

At least in the US (other countries are different!  always check local laws!), it doesn't matter if someone in a public place with no expectation of privacy doesn't want to be photographed...  Because US legal doctrine is that in that combination of circumstances they cannot object.  Let 'em keep jumping in your frame, you can keep shooting without worrying about them (at least from a legal perspective).

And pay attention to the two part test...  The first gets complicated in public spaces on private property (such as a mall), and the second will seriously burn you, because places like bathrooms do produce an expectation of privacy.

In the US, photographer's rights generally descend from the 1st Amendment (specifically freedom of the press) and are thus legally protected.  There's some wrinkles at lower levels of government, but (very broadly and very simplified) if you can see it from a public space (commonly a public sidewalk is cited as the canonical example), you can freely snap away.

<puts hat back on hook, slouches down, picks up second cup of coffee>

Largely OT here...  But as a photographer I wanted to make sure people understand the situation in the US.  There's a lot of misunderstanding among the general public over when and what photographers can photograph.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Doc_Scorpion

[Nerio72]

I would think it's more about chat being "recorded", I'm not sure anyone is worried about their characters being copied. Of course I could be completely wrong too, it's happened once or twice before.

[Coyotedancer]

6 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I think a bright green STREAMING (possibly with little pulsing Red dot, for added effect) could be a really nifty addition.  Good thinking, @Coyotedancer!

Streamers would still have to self-select in to this, and it does potentially paint a target on them for photo-bombers and people seeking their 15-seconds of "fame" . . . but . . . yeah.

I like that idea!

Did you want to post it in the Suggestions board, or would you rather someone else do so, 'Dancer?

 

Go for it. I'm not great at putting suggestions into really useful forms.

[GM Kaiju]

I agree, things were insulting and were removed, including replies. Be excellent to each other.

[Mopery]

 

[arcane]

On 8/16/2021 at 7:19 AM, Bionic_Flea said:

It may be totally legal for someone to Stream other players without their consent.  Just like it's totally legal for someone to follow you around in public and take your picture.  But "being legal" doesn't mean that I have to like it and it doesn't mean that it isn't rude.

 

All I'm asking for is for players who are streaming to make that known so that I or anyone else can decide if I want to participate in that stream.  From what I have seen, many already do that.  If so few people are streaming, then maybe everyone who is streaming is giving the heads up.  And if that's the case, then there's no problem.

 

My only problem lies with someone streaming who doesn't let his teammates know that he is doing so.

+1

[Greycat]

As far as "streaming tags" and "announcing" - ok, great.

 

As far as announcing, how often should someone be announcing their stream is live? Every five minutes? Every minute? Every 30 seconds? Because if someone's (say) streaming their DFB runs, announce it, I log in - I don't see that announcement. Whether I want to "be streamed" or not (for clarification, I don't care, as long as the person isn't being obnoxious,) I'm now showing for a few moments on their stream as I go about my business.

 

Tagging? Same thing. Do you look around while zipping over to the next mission or whatever to see what everyone's tags are - and in the case of a streamer, which way they're facing? Are you going to run *way* around someone so you don't get "caught on camera?" My guess is no.

 

I'm not against having a tag/color/whatever, and sure, it's polite to say "Hey, I'm going to start in 5 minutes" or what have you, but there's only so much *they* can do and should be *expected* (or even just requested) to do. Get to know who they are, put them on a friends list so you know when they're on. Do your part as well.

 

Honestly, given how much info we already put out *willingly* about ourselves that would potentially be *far* more damaging than anything we might say as a character in an RPG...

[arcane]

All I know is, when I think about the person running around recording people without their consent, versus the person who wants to be left out of that, I feel sympathy for only the latter. Stream all you want, but accept some responsibility for what you’re willfully doing to others.

[JayboH]

I guess it is reasonable to ask everyone who doesn't want to be streamed to act as if they were on camera anyway just in case.

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 hours ago, arcane said:

Stream all you want, but accept some responsibility for what you’re willfully doing to others.

Please explain what exactly a streamer is "doing to others."

 

If I'm streaming (I don't) and your character just happens to run past, and appears on my stream for a few seconds, what specifically does that do to you, or others?

 

Also, game streaming has been a thing for 20 years now. Why has this suddenly become an issue now?

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Please explain what exactly a streamer is "doing to others."

 

If I'm streaming (I don't) and your character just happens to run past, and appears on my stream for a few seconds, what specifically does that do to you, or others?

 

Also, game streaming has been a thing for 20 years now. Why has this suddenly become an issue now?

Recording (plus publication and distribution of) actions of others without their consent or even awareness, of course.

 

As for why privacy is suddenly an issue, it always has been.

Edited August 17, 2021 by arcane

[JayboH]

21 minutes ago, arcane said:

Recording (plus publication and distribution of) actions of others without their consent or even awareness, of course.

 

As for why privacy is suddenly an issue, it always has been.

Not sure that is true within the specific context (as your reply is casting a very wide net.)  I don't recall pushback in thousands of other games from a few players who don''t want to be seen on streams until this conversation here.

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

Recording (plus publication and distribution of) actions of others without their consent or even awareness, of course.

 

As for why privacy is suddenly an issue, it always has been.

1) When you outdoors, in a public setting, you have no expectation of privacy. You should expect that people will see you and that nearly all of those people will have cell phones, and that some of those people will take pictures or videos that you might appear in. That's life.

 

2) Being online, whether it's Twitter or an MMO, is being "in public" on the internet. Nothing that you say or do is private and you should expect that people will record, or screenshot, anything that you say or do.

 

3) In short, privacy is not an issue when you've made the deliberate choice to be in a non-private setting.

 

4) The reason that I ask why is this an issue all of a sudden is because I didn't see this thread back in 2019, when Homecoming first came online. I tend to think that if this was really an issue someone would have brought it up then.

[arcane]

59 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

1) When you outdoors, in a public setting, you have no expectation of privacy. You should expect that people will see you and that nearly all of those people will have cell phones, and that some of those people will take pictures or videos that you might appear in. That's life.

 

2) Being online, whether it's Twitter or an MMO, is being "in public" on the internet. Nothing that you say or do is private and you should expect that people will record, or screenshot, anything that you say or do.

 

3) In short, privacy is not an issue when you've made the deliberate choice to be in a non-private setting.

All of these things are legally true. As Bionic Flea alluded to though, there’s a difference between being legal and not being a scummy thing to do. Getting in a person’s face and recording said person without their consent is legal. It is also a smidge deplorable. Streaming is a little fuzzier than holding a phone in someone’s face, but it still merits the discussion.

Edited August 17, 2021 by arcane

[Greycat]

50 minutes ago, arcane said:

All of these things are legally true. As Bionic Flea alluded to though, there’s a difference between being legal and not being a scummy thing to do. Getting in a person’s face and recording said person without their consent is legal. It is also a smidge deplorable. Streaming is a little fuzzier than holding a phone in someone’s face, but it still merits the discussion.

 

Who is "Getting in your face" and recording you? If I'm sitting on 27th St. with my camera for whatever reason and someone on the other side of the street gets in my picture, I am not "in their face," nor is this "a scummy thing to do" by *any* stretch of the imagination.

 

If I'm streaming (I don't) it's HIGHLY unlikely I"m "Getting in someone's face" unless I'm PVPing with them.

 

THere's a HUGE difference between "you happen to be caught in someone's stream" and "getting in someone's face and being scummy/deplorable."

 

I swear, this is like the live days where some people insisted anyone and everyone who was the least interested in PVP wanted to kill everyone's character, bake their babies into pies, kick their dogs and burn their houses down.

[Bionic_Flea]

Positive Gamer is the only CoH streamer that I can think of.  When I watched him, he was actually inviting people who were commenting on his stream that they wanted to join and were giving him their character or global name.  I have no problem with that.  If I had happened to be in the background when he was inviting I also would have no problem with that.

 

At least for me, I'm not talking about a fly-by where I might be in someone's stream for a second.  I am specifically talking about people creating a team, inviting me (or whoever) and not telling people on that team that they are streaming. 

 

If that doesn't bother you, that's OK.  But it bothers me.  Just like it would bother me if a friend invited me to a party at his house but was secretly broadcasting the event.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Bionic_Flea

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ok, fair enough. I see your point.

 

What I really don't want to see, however, is the devs spending a bunch of time coding in some kinda thing that shows people when you're streaming, instead of spending time on power sets or content or whatever.

 

The other thing that puzzled me was people that seemed to be having some real serious issues with the mere thought that their character would appear on someone's video. That's why I said what I said (which got deleted so I won't repeat it). I actually wasn't trying to insult people with what I said, but whatever. Maybe I just misunderstood the severity of their concerns.