issue 27 [Beta] Patch Notes for June 6th, 2021

[CaptainLupis]

19 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

To my understanding that's not how it works in PvE either. Someone more knowledgeable should feel free to correct me, but I thought there isn't actually anything called Resistance Debuff Resistance. There is just Damage Resistance which itself resists debuffs to itself and as such is in fact capped at 90%.

It is how it works in PvE. Resistance is, as you say, its own debuff res, but the hard cap for resistance amount is not the same as for the debuff res amount, so you could have 109% res which gives you 90% actual res and 109% debuff res. I asked the question a while ago, assuming it worked the way you thought it did but not sure, no one else was sure either but Bopper tested it and confirmed debuff res is taken from the total amount, not the capped amount, of res.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, CaptainLupis said:

It is how it works in PvE. Resistance is, as you say, its own debuff res, but the hard cap for resistance amount is not the same as for the debuff res amount, so you could have 109% res which gives you 90% actual res and 109% debuff res. I asked the question a while ago, assuming it worked the way you thought it did but not sure, no one else was sure either but Bopper tested it and confirmed debuff res is taken from the total amount, not the capped amount, of res.

 

But then what does that mean? Let's say you have 90% damage res and 100% debuff resistance...and you get hit with a 30% debuff...do you get debuffed at all?

[CaptainLupis]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

But then what does that mean? Let's say you have 90% damage res and 100% debuff resistance...and you get hit with a 30% debuff...do you get debuffed at all?

You do, but it's been a while so I can't remember what the exact mechanic was. I'll see if I can find Boppers post that had his test values and post a link.

 

Edit: it's here

Edited June 16, 2021 by CaptainLupis

[CaptainLupis]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

But then what does that mean? Let's say you have 90% damage res and 100% debuff resistance...and you get hit with a 30% debuff...do you get debuffed at all?

I edited the previous post with a link, but then realised you wouldn't get a notification about that, so this is just so you know it's there.

[Wavicle]

Crazy.

Well, it's good to know how it actually works, but even so, I would still prefer an Unstoppable that I actually take compared to one that can give you insane debuff resistance that I don't bother taking.

[CaptainLupis]

17 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Crazy.

Well, it's good to know how it actually works, but even so, I would still prefer an Unstoppable that I actually take compared to one that can give you insane debuff resistance that I don't bother taking.

Indeed, I said much the same earlier as well.

[arcane]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

As opposed to not using them because they are trash powers most of the time in PvE? I would say that it’s at least worth a look.

So you’re open to tankers being unable to cap any resistances like they currently can in PvE often without a T9? Sounds like someone’s never been in a PvP zone. Diminishing returns suck hard. PvP tankers with T9’s on are actually squishier than PvE tankers with T9’s off.

Edited June 16, 2021 by arcane

[ScarySai]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

There is just Damage Resistance which itself resists debuffs to itself and as such is in fact capped at 90%.

 

First half is right. Going past cap still boosts debuff resistance and additionally works as a buffer to prevent your actual value from dropping lower than cap.

 

Edit: whoops, someone beat me to it.

Edited June 16, 2021 by ScarySai

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

So you’re open to tankers being unable to cap any resistances like they currently can in PvE often without a T9? Sounds like someone’s never been in a PvP zone. Diminishing returns suck hard. PvP tankers with T9’s on are actually squishier than PvE tankers with T9’s off.

Yeah, for more context, my Granite Tanker:

 

In PvE: Resistance to all but Psi capped at 90% / Defense to all but Psi at 56%

 

In PvP: Resistance to all but Psi at 62% / Defense to all but Psi 33%

 

Edit: And what's funnier is that in PvP squishy ATs actually get built in resistances from their epics' shields that can bring them up near those same PvP caps. They experience DR as well, but it can be seen as part of the reason for this attempt to balance out ATs in PvP.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah, for more context, my Granite Tanker:

 

In PvE: Resistance to all but Psi capped at 90% / Defense to all but Psi at 56%

 

In PvP: Resistance to all but Psi at 62% / Defense to all but Psi 33%

Yeah, PvE’ers definitely will want nothing to do with DR once they know what it means lol.

[America's Angel]

Haha like Faultline said, if you want the PvP tweaks in PvE...you have to take PvP Diminishing Returns alongside them!

 

Here's what your resistance would look like after DR is applied:

 

 

Here's your defense:

 

 

Here's your recharge:

 

 

So...goodbye capped res, capped def, perma hasten, perma dom, squishies having higher than ~20% defense (even with inspiration stacking!), etc...

 

Oh! And your mez attacks will only last 3-5s! After that, your mez attacks will suppress for 15s.

 

Oh! And everyone gets held. Even melee classes. And getting held drops your offensive toggles. (Rise to the Challenge, Chilling Embrace, Blazing Aura, etc.)

 

Any takers? 

 

--

 

Slightly more on topic - hoping to test some of the melee changes today sometime. Has been a busy week for me IRL so haven't had a chance to properly jump in. If any PvPer has a psy melee scrapper, hit me up! I want to make sure we're not overtuning/undertuning the Inv/Elec/Granite psy res tweaks vs other exotic damage types (Negative & Energy, mostly).

Edited June 16, 2021 by America's Angel

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

Here's what your resistance would look like after DR is applied:

I didn't realize tankers had a worse DR curve than other melee ATs. That's kinda messed up that a Tank needs 300% resistance to match what the others can get at 130%. 

[arcane]

30 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I didn't realize tankers had a worse DR curve than other melee ATs. That's kinda messed up that a Tank needs 300% resistance to match what the others can get at 130%. 

I made an Elec/SS tanker with a PvP build and gutted its IO’s the second I realized my Psy/Rad brute had more resistances.

[America's Angel]

36 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I didn't realize tankers had a worse DR curve than other melee ATs. That's kinda messed up that a Tank needs 300% resistance to match what the others can get at 130%. 

 

Yeah tanker DR curves are a bit of a mess. The original idea was that tankers higher HP made up for these lower resistance. But if you look at the mitigation numbers in longer fights, the extra HP that an Invuln tanker has does not make up for the extra res an Invuln brute has. This leads to a weird situation where an invuln tank is both squishier, and does less damage, than an invuln brute.

 

And it's not like we can just change tanker DR curves to match Brutes/Scrappers. Rad armour, bio armour, and the tanker absorb ATO exist, now. How those things work with Tanker HP makes them the tankiest non-click-T9 thing in PvP by far. If the DR curves were changed to improve invuln/elec/granite/etc on tanks...Rad Armour and Bio Armour would become even more unkillable. (As they would also have their res buffed.)

 

It's a tricky one.

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, arcane said:

So you’re open to tankers being unable to cap any resistances like they currently can in PvE often without a T9? Sounds like someone’s never been in a PvP zone. Diminishing returns suck hard. PvP tankers with T9’s on are actually squishier than PvE tankers with T9’s off.

Faultline mentioned only Power Surge and Unstoppable being affected, not entire powersets.😄

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Snip

Meant to post this in my previous post, both from Beta on Stone Tanker:

 

PvE

 

PvP

 

One thing of note with the Granite Armor change; the additional 25% Psi resistance ends up getting DR'd to zero after about 25% resistance... if the player had absolutely no added Psi resistance from set bonuses or IOs, it may potentially add a little, but to my build - it was not felt at all. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[macskull]

On 6/13/2021 at 5:48 PM, JayboH said:

Dice roll PvP where it's more about getting favorable rolls than actual skill/reflexes has never appealed to me

That's an extremely watered-down and almost entirely incorrect assessment of how PvP in this game actually works.

 

23 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I would be very happy for (as an example) Unstoppable to be balanced such that clicking it brought a Tanker to 90% Res to all but Psi IF it is fully slotted for Res AND combined with your toggles and passives, if that meant we could slash the Health and End crashes to 50%.

I think Faultline was more referring to PvP diminishing returns (basically, depending on your initial res/def values your T9 might only give you a few points more instead of the massive increase you'd see in PvE).

[macskull]

10 hours ago, Bopper said:

I didn't realize tankers had a worse DR curve than other melee ATs. That's kinda messed up that a Tank needs 300% resistance to match what the others can get at 130%. 

It's been known for a while that resistance-based sets (Rad, Elec, etc) tend to perform better on Brutes while mixed mitigation sets (WP, Bio, etc) tend to perform better on Tankers. Part of this is pretty much because the devs responsible for the I13 changes really only looked at HP and ignored everything else.

 

More on-topic though, these changes look solid.

[Wavicle]

I think if in PvE the crashes are simply cut to 50% (NOT removed entirely) then the nerfs needn't be as severe as what PvP has going on.

Also, my god, let's fix that Brute/Tank DR nonsense!

[America's Angel]

8 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

One thing of note with the Granite Armor change; the additional 25% Psi resistance ends up getting DR'd to zero after about 25% resistance... if the player had absolutely no added Psi resistance from set bonuses or IOs, it may potentially add a little, but to my build - it was not felt at all. 

 

This is due to the tanker DR curves.

 

For comparison's sake - in PvP, My IO'd stone Brute went from 52.23% (live) to 58.38% (brainstorm) after the changes.

 

Vs a 300 DPS opponent that's an extra 18.45HPS. That's huge.

 

 

The changes to granite on brutes puts the psy res closer to negative energy resistance, which is the ballpark we usually want an exotic damage type to be.

 

More testing needed. So nothing conclusive just yet. But definitely a step in the right direction. (Still not sure if it's a step too far, or not far enough. Testing will tell.)

[JayboH]

6 hours ago, macskull said:

That's an extremely watered-down and almost entirely incorrect assessment of how PvP in this game actually works.

If you are telling me that this game's PvP doesn't use dice rolls for calculating actual combat please give me details

[arcane]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

If you are telling me that this game's PvP doesn't use dice rolls for calculating actual combat please give me details

It doesn’t use them any more than PvE does? So not sure what your point is. Does “dice roll PvE” appeal to you still though? Very confusing point. Every big MMO has some RNG going on but there’s hardly anything special there in our PvP. And it’s hardly consequential compared to skill/reflexes/build.

Edited June 17, 2021 by arcane

[Arbegla]

7 hours ago, JayboH said:

If you are telling me that this game's PvP doesn't use dice rolls for calculating actual combat please give me details

 

Umm.. "actual combat" is literally dice rolls...

[JayboH]

9 hours ago, arcane said:

Does “dice roll PvE” appeal to you still though? ~it’s hardly consequential compared to skill/reflexes/build.

Yes.

 

...and the build part is what I referenced, it's getting favorable dice rolls.  That blast will follow you around corners no matter how fast of a reaction you have, because the dice said so, that kind of thing.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by JayboH

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, Arbegla said:

 

Umm.. "actual combat" is literally dice rolls...

Yeah I was asking Macskull after he said that's incorrect.  Glad to hear I wasn't!