Mechanics that make sense in real life and P&P RPGs, but don't work in video games

[RikOz]

What are some "game mechanics" that never (or rarely) work in video games, even though they work just fine in real life and in pencil & paper games like D&D?

 

The main one I've noticed, between CoH and WoW is "character size". The problem is that, in a computer RPG, the size of your character is simply cosmetic. There are no mechanical advantages or disadvantages to playing a character that is larger or smaller than "normal". This usually seems to be for "balance" reasons.

 

I first noticed this in WoW, when I tried fitting characters of different races through tight spots. That's when I discovered that, if a tauren (WoW's physically largest race) can't fit through that space, neither can a gnome (one of the smallest races). More than once, I tried to move a gnome through a space that, visually, was more than big enough for her to fit, but nope. For the purposes of fitting through spaces, all characters are treated as the same size.

 

Today, in CoH, I was playing a character who is eight feet tall, and uses the "huge" model. Additionally, it (it's a robot) uses Titan Weapons. So he's eight feet tall, and he's swinging a 10-foot laser sword. Now, in D&D, his size alone would give him extra "reach", and his weapon would probably also qualify as a "reach weapon". He'd have a similar advantage in "real life". But in CoH, none of that matters. For the purpose of making melee attacks, he's exactly the same size as everybody else, and he still has to be practically bumping chests with his opponent to hit them.

 

Have you noticed other examples?

[Marshal_General]

Um permadeath doesn't really work in games, but is working fine IRL. 😛

[Shred Monkey]

I would argue that control powers don't really translate very well to non-turned base games.   If you don't overlap your controls to perma-lockdown a combatant from the fight, the enemy just hits you the instant they recover, usually with their biggest attack.   Given that NPC attacks have cooldowns and they have large gaps in their attack chains, it's not uncommon that a knockdown that took an enemy out of the fight for 3 seconds did almost nothing at all since the enemy just got up and immediately used all the attacks that came off cooldown while it was down.   If the enemy is missing 75%+ of the time, the odds that any incoming damage was mitigated by a knockdown is even more unlikely.   And if you do have a setup to perma-lockdown enemies from a fight,.. well that's just as broken in the other direction, although most games accept this as being OK to make up for the lack of mitigation when you do not perma-lockdown an opponent.

 

CoH has implemented many patches and attempts to fine-tune the way controls function with varying degrees of success.  But I still feel that despite the fact that controls are a staples part of the superhero genre and P&P RPGs, they really fail to be a significant part of this game outside of a few highly specialized examples.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Shred Monkey

[Snarky]

Actually....size does matter.  Not sure about the coding.  But I started CoX running giant Brutes.  Did so for years.  Then I have a few tiny robots, and my standard vamp (on a dozen alts now...) which is normal height. (slightly less than 6 ft) The small characters negotiate tight maps much easier (for me) than the large ones do.  I do not know if there is corresponding code or if it is just easier for me to move center mass through opening when I can see the center mass easier.

 

Comic book physics is always an issue translated real world to storytelling, whether tabletop, book, traditional comic, or video game.  The ragdoll physics in CoX is really one of the reasons I keep playing.  It adds a 'real' feel to the game.  (that is not an excuse for KB, put a F-ing Sudden Acc Proc in it you losers)

 

I enjoy watching snippets of stuff on YouTube before sleep.  Last night was some Punisher and Defenders.  The punisher was fighting another guy.  They were both using things like pipe wrenches and scuba tanks.  for multiple hits.  yeah, no.....    The Defenders hallway fight against "The Hand" (their intro to each other as a team) has some spectacular non connection of reality to physics.  Luke Cage and Jessica Jones punch and throw people (regular people) hard enough to break walls.  these people sometimes move.  there is no oozing (or exploding) of blood.  Some of these people should be twisted around with their legs at an awkward angle, twitching, like our ragdoll physics shows sometimes.  There is no recovering from a hit that knocks you into a wall from across a room hard enough to shatter plaster and cave in the wall.  

[Haijinx]

Villains and vigilantes  had strength as an attribute, but then an actual lifting weight stat, which was the one damage was based on.

 

Strength was one aspect of that number, but so was character weight.  So it was impossible for a 150 pounder to really compete with a 300 pounder in unarmed damage.

[Xenosone]

Endurance sapping/exhaustion. It half works and for players only. The ai just has too many zero cost attacks especially mog paragon protectors. 

[EmperorSteele]

Skill checks.

 

I mean, this game really doesn't have skills, so regardless of your character's origin or background or age or whatever, they still only need 4 seconds to hack a super computer or crack a safe or render a magic alter inert or do anything else that isn't straight up attacking someone.

 

Stealth is another. You either have it or you don't, so you really can't "try" to sneak past dudes. You either can or you can't. But regardless of that, you don't get an attack bonus while unnoticed unless you have a specific power thay says so (Hide, basically, and whatever that one power in the various /ninjitsu secondaries is called). On the flip side of that, if you're "hidden" well enough, you can do jumping jacks in the middle of a brightly lit room in front of a dozen enemies and they won't notice you, which wouldn't fly in a tabletop game!

 

[ZemX]

10 hours ago, RikOz said:

What are some "game mechanics" that never (or rarely) work in video games, even though they work just fine in real life and in pencil & paper games like D&D?

 

Sprinting, holding one's breath, and... oddly enough... flashlights (also torches).

 

Video game light sources are notoriously temporary.  Much more-so than in real life.  I get the desire to make them a limited resource but it's out of all proportion to reality.  Forget Lithium Ion batteries.  Even an old D-Cell flashlight would last longer than 30 seconds.  This one I think most modern video games have finally gotten past but it was heavily featured in such high profile games as Doom 3 and Halo, to name just two.   There'd always be some noticeable duration bar that would pop up and drain whenever you turned on a personal light source.  Skyrim was a little better but (unmodded) you could only hold a torch for 4 minutes before it would burn out.  A real torch would last at least an hour, if not two.

 

Sprinting? I am replaying Mass Effect again because of the remake and even though they've allowed Commander Shepard to sprint outside of combat now, he/she still only makes it about twenty feet or so before gasping for air.  I mean Shep is in active-military shape and has been genetically enhanced (presumably for strength and endurance).  At least the first two games have this problem.  They might have finally gotten rid of it by 3.  I don't remember.

 

And yeah, swimming underwater.  This one is a mixed bag.  Some games feature breath holding I'd have trouble keeping up with but I'd say more often than not I can hold my breath much longer than a typical video game character's "breath bar" will last.

 

But on the flip side, video games have their share of superhuman feats performed by ordinary people as well.  Snarky mentioned one: unnatural ability to take a beating that should kill someone.  Another is exemplified by just about any game featuring climbing.  Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, Uncharted, etc.   Granted, the Assassins in AC are supposed to be at least a little superhuman, but they still climb with unnatural speed and manage to grab ledges from a fall that should rip their arms off.  If you've watched a real free climb up a rock face, it's impressive... but really slow compared to a video game.  And that two-story fall?  It didn't hurt because I... rolled out of the landing!  Yeah... that works.

Edited June 28, 2021 by ZemX

[golstat2003]

12 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

 

And yeah, swimming underwater.  This one is a mixed bag.  Some games feature breath holding I'd have trouble keeping up with but I'd say more often than not I can hold my breath much longer than a typical video game character's "breath bar" will last.

 

 

 

FFXIV Online interestingly gives you an arc where you simply get the ability to permanently breath underwater by magic. From then on any underwater mission I've seen after that has no limit on how long you can swim underwater. So much so that there are many missions where you hunt for collectables underwater for waaaaay long that should be possible if it were real life. or in other games like WoW where they still have the "breath" bar.

 

I think it's the only game that does that. Even in the Witcher 3 I think you need to come up for air.

Edited June 28, 2021 by golstat2003

[ZemX]

43 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think it's the only game that does that. Even in the Witcher 3 I think you need to come up for air.

 

Nah, lots of games do that.  Skyrim has magic for it (or just Vampirism).  Fallout 4 has a perk for it.  Tomb Raider has a rebreather.  Assassin's Creed: Odyssey has a magic (or first civ tech, if you prefer) enhancement for weapons that does it.  When I play AC:Odyssey these days, one of my first stops once out in the open waters of the rest of the map is that little island where you can sneak Poseidon's Trident away from a chest guarded by high-level lions. 🤪

 

But outside any other means of underwater breathing, I still think it's more common for video games to underrepresent the ability of a person to hold their breath underwater just as a means of making it more of a gameplay obstacle than it really would be.

Edited June 28, 2021 by ZemX

[SwitchFade]

Cake.

 

Cake never works, because pie>cake.

 

Discuss.

[GraspingVileTerror]

There seems to be a misconception about mechanics and gameplay abstractions.

 

Plenty of gameplay abstractions can be represented with a wide variety of different mechanics.  Just because one particular mechanism doesn't work, it doesn't mean that the intent behind its function can't be simulated in another way.

 

Skill checks, for example.

Those represent knowledge or talents which a player-character has developed over time, and allow them to achieve success in areas where normally they would not.

Even without introducing a traditional skills system to City, we could approach a similar tool in the form of Badge checks.

We already see such checks appearing in various missions from the last couple of years of Legacy, as well as the changes to the Lockhart mission in Steel Canyon when played through Ouroboros.

 

Suffice it to say, we should never, ever allow ourselves to be limited in imagination because one form of a gameplay mechanic can't deliver on something which a different mechanic could.

[Eldyem]

9 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I would argue that control powers don't really translate very well to non-turned base games.   If you don't overlap your controls to perma-lockdown a combatant from the fight, the enemy just hits you the instant they recover, usually with their biggest attack.   Given that NPC attacks have cooldowns and they have large gaps in their attack chains, it's not uncommon that a knockdown that took an enemy out of the fight for 3 seconds did almost nothing at all since the enemy just got up and immediately used all the attacks that came off cooldown while it was down.   If the enemy is missing 75%+ of the time, the odds that any incoming damage was mitigated by a knockdown is even more unlikely.   And if you do have a setup to perma-lockdown enemies from a fight,.. well that's just as broken in the other direction, although most games accept this as being OK to make up for the lack of mitigation when you do not perma-lockdown an opponent.

 

CoH has implemented many patches and attempts to fine-tune the way controls function with varying degrees of success.  But I still feel that despite the fact that controls are a staples part of the superhero genre and P&P RPGs, they really fail to be a significant part of this game outside of a few highly specialized examples.

 

I'm going to push back against this a little; quite a few modern MMOs have introduced moments where a player *needs* to stun/silence a boss as part of a mechanical interaction. I think the problem is that CoH's take on controls/combat and team building just doesn't mesh well with MMOs finding a "control" role - which, to be fair, took almost a decade after CoH invested hard in its own take on control. It's also common for other MMO bosses to build up immunities to specific forms of mez as they get used repeatedly.

 

I think the biggest issue with CoH's approach to control in terms of balancing is that controls are VERY long relative to any other MMO and that there's not really any sort of "building" resistance to mez that makes it less "permahold or nothing" in terms of approach.

 

8 hours ago, Xenosone said:

Endurance sapping/exhaustion. It half works and for players only. The ai just has too many zero cost attacks especially mog paragon protectors. 

 

The other problem is that this is a very "build into" type of mez which just doesn't mesh with the way the rest of the game is designed. The only enemies that aren't dying quickly are the ones with the resistance to the effect. There's a massive disconnect there that makes it work better versus players than enemies almost always.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Eldyem
added some words

[Black Talon]

This subject - and much appreciated on the topic introduction - is a signature point that differentiates human intuition/imagination from algorithms.  There have been several situations, over the past forty years, in the games I've GMed, and played in, where a specific core-book established rule applying to a particular circumstance simply didn't exist.  So we made one up, usually based on previously-established mechanics, and moved on.  Such is not possible in the online games (for now and presumably the foreseeable future), and, again - as demonstrated with characters of various sizes being able/unable to pass through doorways - this is where the pen-and-paper games win out on a collaborative basis.

 

CoH's ragdoll physics are, in many respects, total aberrations from both what we laughingly refer to as reality, and many game-established mechanics.  My reply to such: So what?  As long as the mechanics in place can lead to the creation of what I would call A Good Fricking Story, nothing else matters.  Plus, it's consistent across the board, for characters and NPCs alike.  One of my prime examples for this is, Back In The Day, one of my senior alts ended up doing an arc where Countess Crey had him framed for a capital crime, and between missions, he was attacked by various villain groups (fill-ins for authorized law enforcement), which totally strained the logic of the story and world.  There was no way I could see this happening, aside from the police hiring said villain groups on as short-term mercenaries, which would have only happened (again, logically) in a full-out Rikti-style invasion.  A use of the in-place algorithms to side-step other issues?  Yes.  Did it ultimately ruin the story?  No.

 

I wrote a note to the CoH staff afterward, congratulating them on what I felt was one of the most imaginative arcs I'd yet seen - and also providing a note that, if possible, replace the between-mission villain groups with actual police, which would have upped the intensity/realism (let's laugh at that concept a bit again) aspect.  The point being: Did the story in question have limitations circumscribed by algorithms?  Yes.  Did those lead to illogical outcomes with some aspects of storytelling, at least with "real-life" factors?  Yes.  Did this impact on the final value of the story in question?  No.

 

Again, in my opinion, much of this issue - similar to my experience reading about/teaching philosophy and law - is based on internal contradictions.  Are such contradictions accounted for, and, if possible, amended?  This is where the pen-and-paper games are always going to hold the winning hand, in my opinion; there's every opportunity for enterprising individuals to make their own changes to the system (although these go only as far as being house-rules, true) that apply throughout their game-playing world.

[Lockpick]

5 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Cake.

 

Cake never works, because pie>cake.

 

Discuss.

 

I can't really disagree with this logic.  I may actually have to go Pie > Cookies > Cake.  Hmm, if you add Ice Cream to the mix though it is more like Ice Cream > Pie > Cookies > Cake.

[biostem]

I feel that this trope fits things very well;  in real life, where I'm not about to break down someone's decorative fence or screen door to progress further, it's fully understandable. In a video game, where I'm ostensibly trying to save someone's life or prevent some great disaster, you'd be damn sure that such a flimsy barrier would stand no chance.  It really irks me when my character can control primal forces or has a cadre of war 'bots at my beck-and-call, that some flimsy interior door could stand in my way...

[Black Talon]

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

I feel that this trope fits things very well;  in real life, where I'm not about to break down someone's decorative fence or screen door to progress further, it's fully understandable. In a video game, where I'm ostensibly trying to save someone's life or prevent some great disaster, you'd be damn sure that such a flimsy barrier would stand no chance.  It really irks me when my character can control primal forces or has a cadre of war 'bots at my beck-and-call, that some flimsy interior door could stand in my way...

Heh.  Makes me think of Hotshots: Part Deux, and coming across the waist-high picket-fence gate: "Damn!  It's locked from the inside!"  Such a barrier would require your basic Thing/Hulk-type character to do nothing but the extensive detour in the MMPOG situation...

[Blackfeather]

4 hours ago, Eldyem said:

I'm going to push back against this a little; quite a few modern MMOs have introduced moments where a player *needs* to stun/silence a boss as part of a mechanical interaction. I think the problem is that CoH's take on controls/combat and team building just doesn't mesh well with MMOs finding a "control" role - which, to be fair, took almost a decade after CoH invested hard in its own take on control. It's also common for other MMO bosses to build up immunities to specific forms of mez as they get used repeatedly.

 

I think the biggest issue with CoH's approach to control in terms of balancing is that controls are VERY long relative to any other MMO and that there's not really any sort of "building" resistance to mez that makes it less "permahold or nothing" in terms of approach.
 

The other problem is that this is a very "build into" type of mez which just doesn't mesh with the way the rest of the game is designed. The only enemies that aren't dying quickly are the ones with the resistance to the effect. There's a massive disconnect there that makes it work better versus players than enemies almost always.

 

Apparently the original trinity was actually tank/healer/mezzer a long time ago.

[biostem]

4 hours ago, Eldyem said:

I'm going to push back against this a little; quite a few modern MMOs have introduced moments where a player *needs* to stun/silence a boss as part of a mechanical interaction. I think the problem is that CoH's take on controls/combat and team building just doesn't mesh well with MMOs finding a "control" role - which, to be fair, took almost a decade after CoH invested hard in its own take on control. It's also common for other MMO bosses to build up immunities to specific forms of mez as they get used repeatedly.

 

I think the biggest issue with CoH's approach to control in terms of balancing is that controls are VERY long relative to any other MMO and that there's not really any sort of "building" resistance to mez that makes it less "permahold or nothing" in terms of approach.

To a degree I agree with your summation, but I also think this falls into the "why don't you just shoot him" trope - We simply don't have the ability, as a super strong character, to flick an enemy in the forehead of knock them out, nor do we have the ability to interrogate or otherwise intimidate enemies, (in any way that would affect the mission flow), unless it was specifically scripted into the mission.

 

Another mechanic that bugs me is that of power cooldowns.  I can understand that a firearm only has a certain fire rate, but I should be able to punch or kick as fast as I, (perhaps trading attack speed for accuracy or damage).

 

Then there's little things - like not being able to create a little light if you can control fire, or not being able to heal or rez certain NPCs, if they are injured/defeated...

[Sunsette]

27 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

 

Apparently the original trinity was actually tank/healer/mezzer a long time ago.

 

It's a good summary, although the author missed a fundamental point: the original trinity was called that from a LFG standpoint; without the holy trinity, your group was incomplete.

 

Post-WoW, the trinity is called that in game design, by people who want to move away from the offense/defense/support dynamic (or just 'healing' specifically, in games where that hurts immersion).

[Blackfeather]

22 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

It's a good summary, although the author missed a fundamental point: the original trinity was called that from a LFG standpoint; without the holy trinity, your group was incomplete.

 

Post-WoW, the trinity is called that in game design, by people who want to move away from the offense/defense/support dynamic (or just 'healing' specifically, in games where that hurts immersion).

 

Mmhm, it sounds like back in the day, CC was an essential part of the party, which is really interesting.

[Sunsette]

5 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

 

Mmhm, it sounds like back in the day, CC was an essential part of the party, which is really interesting.

 

It still is, it's just not a role-per-se, which tbh I think has largely been for the best. CC is *incredibly* important in Mythic Dungeons in WoW, for example, but DPS and Heals both are likely to carry CC while tanks basically never do or have a very limited capacity for them. Generally while control is incredibly important for dealing with groups (that is to say, crowds), sooner or later virtually all games have hard bosses that include a patchwerk phase -- go ham DPS as hard as you can without anyone dying. And controllers in CoX have always been in an awkward situation with those in the form of AVs and giant monsters.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Sunsette

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, Sunsette said:

It still is, it's just not a role-per-se, which tbh I think has largely been for the best. CC is *incredibly* important in Mythic Dungeons in WoW, for example, but DPS and Heals both are likely to carry CC while tanks basically never do or have a very limited capacity for them.

 

As in, as a dedicated role. I do like my Controllers, and not having a dedicated class for it kind of spoils me to WoW. Not interested in mages and the like!

[Eldyem]

3 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

 

Apparently the original trinity was actually tank/healer/mezzer a long time ago.

 

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

 

As in, as a dedicated role. I do like my Controllers, and not having a dedicated class for it kind of spoils me to WoW. Not interested in mages and the like!

 

I like this as an idea, I just think there's a more active and less all-or-nothing way to do it. At the risk of making too out there of a reference, the DS RPG series Etrian Odyssey divides "Binds" into Head, Arm, and Leg; attacks are linked to a specific body part, and to stop ALL attacks you have to bind all three body parts (and I believe a small handful of bosses can fight back anyway, but without their best attacks). This is just one way to do it, of course, but I think that the CoH approach ends up creating a situation where big fights have to be relatively uninteractive for a controllers because mezzes are just too strong and too long for big fights; there's more than just "mez" and "no mez" when designing a game.

 

3 hours ago, biostem said:

To a degree I agree with your summation, but I also think this falls into the "why don't you just shoot him" trope - We simply don't have the ability, as a super strong character, to flick an enemy in the forehead of knock them out, nor do we have the ability to interrogate or otherwise intimidate enemies, (in any way that would affect the mission flow), unless it was specifically scripted into the mission.

 

I get what you're saying, but I think there's plenty of ways to make it so that even relatively short mezzes end up providing more value than just shooting something, while also acknowledging that that approach to MMO design literally did not exist when CoH was made.

I will also say, I've always felt that a fully mezzed enemy - with mezzes as long as CoH currently has - should, logically, just end up arrested since they can't fight back. Obviously that'd make for an overpowered mez class, but I think the rationale is worthwhile to sort of break down what (I feel, at least) is "wrong" with CoH mez. (I also want to be clear I really enjoy CoH's Control classes - I just think they're not something any modern MMO dev would even implement again because they're a nightmare for game balance).

Edited June 29, 2021 by Eldyem
realized I said "head, arm, and leg" and didnt clarify.

[biostem]

42 minutes ago, Eldyem said:

I get what you're saying, but I think there's plenty of ways to make it so that even relatively short mezzes end up providing more value than just shooting something, while also acknowledging that that approach to MMO design literally did not exist when CoH was made.

I will also say, I've always felt that a fully mezzed enemy - with mezzes as long as CoH currently has - should, logically, just end up arrested since they can't fight back. Obviously that'd make for an overpowered mez class, but I think the rationale is worthwhile to sort of break down what (I feel, at least) is "wrong" with CoH mez. (I also want to be clear I really enjoy CoH's Control classes - I just think they're not something any modern MMO dev would even implement again because they're a nightmare for game balance).

Well, I think the biggest mistake was the binary nature of mez effects in CoH; practically no effect until some magic threshold is reached, then total lockdown.  There really should be a sliding scale of debilitating effects until the enemy is completely disabled.  It would be interesting if achieving that basically rendered the enemy "defeated".

Edited June 29, 2021 by biostem