Anyone else notice a slowly increasing number of people joining groups just to solo?

[Erratic1]

Just now, ZemX said:

 

It can't happen at +0 either.  Unless you're going to move to talking about teams small enough not to spawn bosses next.

 

 

Feel free to work that out.  Boss hit points are rather impressive.  It would take multiple blaster nukes to AoE them in a single shot and then they wouldn't be available again for a minimum of 30 seconds.  Seven blasters and one hapless melee could MAYBE keep that rolling on a +0 or -1 team.  But that's about it.  

 

And like I said, if you're not running at the higher settings you're probably doing a speed run anyway which is beside the point of this thread which is about NOT running away on your own.  

 

On any realistic team, there is plenty of time for melee damage dealers to contribute even without running too far ahead or striking out solo.

 

I see what you are doing here, though I am willing to grant you may not....

 

You are so wrapped up in being literal you are missing the point. When all the minions and lieutenants are dead and a boss or two are left, everyone is going to focus fire them down very quickly. As a melee, I may get in a hit or two but it is clearly not needed. Heck, I may not even actually make it to the a boss before it is melted.

 

I am not ever sure here what you are arguing against since I very clearly spelled out that my moving forward does not involving running to the end.

[MHertz]

37 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

I generally agree with you.  Mostly I was showing frustration with folks assigning motivations and/or feelings for me....kinda like this:

 

Yes, and I did say "I don't understand" and "it seems to me" rather than "you're only saying that because you feel X." The former I can condone as an opinion or a viewpoint — we all try to understand why others are motivated the way they are, or why we hold certain opinions — but the latter isn't helpful. One is telling you how I think unspecified people might feel; the latter is telling you how you feel. This is especially unhelpful in a context where some people have implied that "feelings" are not a valid argument.

 

But I recognize that could be unclear, and I apologize. If you have a hard time telling those two modes of expression apart, I'll try to do better to put a little blue sky between them.

Edited September 27, 2021 by MHertz

[MHertz]

37 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You are so wrapped up in being literal you are missing the point. When all the minions and lieutenants are dead and a boss or two are left, everyone is going to focus fire them down very quickly. As a melee, I may get in a hit or two but it is clearly not needed.

Agreed. This description of how actual battles go passes the sniff test. Whatever might be theoretically true on paper, you gotta compare it to what you see in the game. Even running the Death From Below trial at level 5, the minions and lieutenants go up like a magician's flash paper, and the bosses are swarmed under in seconds by everyone else's concentrated fire. AVs are pretty much the only exception. It's just how the game is balanced. I can totally see why melee types would be unsatisfied with the role of getting one good AOE in, and then everything else melting away. If that.

 

It's a problem, yeah. The incentives for different archetypes to have a satisfying combat experience may be too different.

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

That's not an assumption.  That's an impossibility.  At least if we are talking about +4x8 missions.

 

Build Up plus Gaussian's Proc, the spawn has no bosses, and the RNG is in your favor....   I've had it happen more than once.

[ZemX]

36 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

You are so wrapped up in being literal you are missing the point. When all the minions and lieutenants are dead and a boss or two are left, everyone is going to focus fire them down very quickly. As a melee, I may get in a hit or two but it is clearly not needed. Heck, I may not even actually make it to the a boss before it is melted.

 

I'm being literal because your argument literally depends on these hypothetical ranged damage dealers being able to "melt" everything in a spawn before I can reach it and contribute meaningful damage.  

 

Look at it another way.  What is the difference here between, say Blasters and Scrappers?  Blasters do more damage and they do it at range.   It's the range part that seems to be key to your argument since you're talking about the spawn being killed before you can reach it as a melee.  My point is that you're exaggerating what a Blaster or even a group of them can do from range in this case.  

 

If we're being fair in this comparison and assume everyone starts towards the next spawn at the same time and at the same speed, the only real difference is that Blasters can stop and fire at around 60-80 feet while the Scrapper has to continue running into the spawn to launch their first attack.  So what you're really going on about is Blasters making one more attack than the Scrapper.  That's about all they will have time for in that situation.   So what is this one attack made by 'n' blasters every time that lands before a Scrapper can do anything significant and which "kills all the minions and LTs"?  

 

Because that's what I don't buy.   (a) Because I don't see this happening on real teams in the actual game.  If the mission is absurdly easy, the difficulty gets raised and then it's not that quick anymore. and (b) Because I don't see anyone describing what attacks would even make this work in theory.  Nobody is doing the homework here.  And I'm saying that's necessary because melting whole spawns, at least ones worth attacking by a powerful team, is not as easy as is routinely described here on the forums.  You will occasionally have a few blasters conspire to impressively wipe out a spawn with nukes, but then it's a while before they can do that again so... so what?

[QuiJon]

3 hours ago, Seigmoraig said:

What really grinds my gears is when you start a taskforce when below level 50. Taskforce is not advertised as being a rush or fast or whatever and somebody rushes to the end anyways without asking anyone's opinion and either just finishes it to group teleports the team there. 
A few weeks ago this happened on the last mission of ITF, not everybody was even in the door yet and the cut scene was already playing and he ATT'd us to the final boss without asking. I'm not even ashamed to say that we (RL friend who had lead to make the mission level 50) immediately kicked him out of the team and asked everyone left to fly back to the start so we could do the mission normally. 

You do get that to some people that is normal and not a speed tactic right? I have been on alot of ITFs where the plan is to run to kill the AV and nictus and then you hit the tower tops to get your 300 kills. I mean it is common enough with the people i play with that someone normally asks if we are killing a pathway and which one or to head strait to the AV. It really doesnt matter if you kill the AV and let his adds count as part of the 300 and then go pick up the rest or if you skip the paths and kill the AVs and adds and then take out the towers you still kill about the same amount of enemies and it takes about the same amount of time. 

[QuiJon]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

I'm being literal because your argument literally depends on these hypothetical ranged damage dealers being able to "melt" everything in a spawn before I can reach it and contribute meaningful damage.  

 

Look at it another way.  What is the difference here between, say Blasters and Scrappers?  Blasters do more damage and they do it at range.   It's the range part that seems to be key to your argument since you're talking about the spawn being killed before you can reach it as a melee.  My point is that you're exaggerating what a Blaster or even a group of them can do from range in this case.  

 

If we're being fair in this comparison and assume everyone starts towards the next spawn at the same time and at the same speed, the only real difference is that Blasters can stop and fire at around 60-80 feet while the Scrapper has to continue running into the spawn to launch their first attack.  So what you're really going on about is Blasters making one more attack than the Scrapper.  That's about all they will have time for in that situation.   So what is this one attack made by 'n' blasters every time that lands before a Scrapper can do anything significant and which "kills all the minions and LTs"?  

 

Because that's what I don't buy.   (a) Because I don't see this happening on real teams in the actual game.  If the mission is absurdly easy, the difficulty gets raised and then it's not that quick anymore. and (b) Because I don't see anyone describing what attacks would even make this work in theory.  Nobody is doing the homework here.  And I'm saying that's necessary because melting whole spawns, at least ones worth attacking by a powerful team, is not as easy as is routinely described here on the forums.  You will occasionally have a few blasters conspire to impressively wipe out a spawn with nukes, but then it's a while before they can do that again so... so what?

I have been the melee tank on teams full of blaster, corruptors, dominators, defenders where i am the only melee, and i will attest with certainty that it is more then possible for a group of ranged damage dealers to melt a mob before a melee toon can do much of anything of any consequence. most all blasters have at least 2 normal AOEs and a nuke. Even something like a dominator can load up damage procs into even immb aoe attacks and end up doing alot of damage with them on top of their normal attacks. I have been on teams where i am lucky if i get a taunt and 1 single target attack off into a mob before they are all gone. 

 

Simply put i will take it one step further. Even though melee is perfectly capable in this game, they are now in no way needed, especially in the end game. I have done +4 ITFs with nothing but blasters, nothing but dominators, nothing but controllers, etc. And those teams manage comparable complete times to teams that have melee on them. 

[Wobegone]

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

Yes, and I did say "I don't understand" and "it seems to me" rather than "you're only saying that because you feel X." The former I can condone as an opinion or a viewpoint — we all try to understand why others are motivated the way they are, or why we hold certain opinions — but the latter isn't helpful. One is telling you how I think unspecified people might feel; the latter is telling you how you feel. This is especially unhelpful in a context where some people have implied that "feelings" are not a valid argument.

At the point you first commented, there had been numerous posters explaining their reasons for going rogue in a team setting.  Then you stated that 'I don't understand' followed by assigning motivations and reasoning.  I doesn't matter if you couch it in 'it seems to me', people here gave you their reasons and you stlll assigned your opinon of the reasons.

 

1 hour ago, MHertz said:

If you have a hard time telling those two modes of expression apart, I'll try to do better to put a little blue sky between them.

And then you threw the burden of understanding right back at me.  Now, this being the internet, and we not looking at each other in the eye, it's difficult to tell emotion.  But this seems passive aggressive to me.( see what I did there?)

 

I waited more than 4 pages, including your first post in this thread, and only responded when you said "I can see how this argument makes sense".  But you didn't leave it at that.  There was a 'but' involved, which I pointed out.  Despite numerous examples, there was a 'I understand but...'. 

 

Throughout all of this, Not one person explained their motivation as to why they'd rather my Scrapper stand around slashing corpses then go off on her own except something like 'Teaming is for teaming'.  And in response to your 'but' I assigned motivations couched in the same language you used on page 4 out of frustration.  

 

Now, I'm not angry, and I don't wanna turn this into a fight.  I'm tired of this conversation as folks seem to be talking past each other without regard for nuance and complexity.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane

[Erratic1]

Just now, ZemX said:

 

I'm being literal because your argument literally depends on these hypothetical ranged damage dealers being able to "melt" everything in a spawn before I can reach it and contribute meaningful damage.  

 

No, it does not. The part you quoted clearly indicated why it does not.

 

 

[Without_Pause]

I'll add to the chorus of people who can find their melee character in doing less than meaningful damage to a mob due to having to get into melee range. Not always, but in certain situations. I do tend to solo my melee characters a lot more.

[Erratic1]

17 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

Simply put i will take it one step further. Even though melee is perfectly capable in this game, they are now in no way needed, especially in the end game. I have done +4 ITFs with nothing but blasters, nothing but dominators, nothing but controllers, etc. And those teams manage comparable complete times to teams that have melee on them. 

 

Well, nobody is needed. The question to me is, "Am I having fun?" If not, the quesiton then becomes, "What can I do that is not going to cause someone else distress?"

 

 Though I will admit that some of the most fun I have had has been on oddball or incomplete (i.e. far short of 8 players) teams where you really have to figure out how to stretch everyone's abilities.   Three person DFB is definitely interesting and I think I've managed a full badge run with only four before.

[TheZag]

I have not noticed this.  But most of my groups are with my friends so we just make fun of them if they die.

[Snarky]

On 9/26/2021 at 8:56 AM, Wulf2 said:

As a newly returned player, I get frustrated in groups where everyone knows what is happening and they expect me to as well.  No matter how clear I am that I've recently returned, have no 50s and am taking my time enjoying the content, there is always a few people who want "efficiency" or speed.  

 

Now, there is nothing wrong with these attitudes.  But what it really comes down to is communication.  When you join a team, ask if it is OK to stealth the end.  Ask the expectations.  It takes all of 30 seconds to type it out.  Less if you make a macro.

 

One of the things I always loved about COH/COV, was the community.  I have not been disappointed since my return.  People are generally helpful, kind, and generous.  (Shout-out to Bathory on Reunion).  To keep the community healthy, I think we need to communicate more, and be willing to say, "Hey, this group isn't for me.  I want to move fast and this guy wants to read the mission reports.  Have fun, I'm out."  Conversely, the newbie like me also has to be willing to say, "If y'all are moving fast, I shouldn't be here.  I want to read this stuff.  Have fun."  In the end, we each have fun doing different things in different ways.  We have to remember to respect that and recognize when our own expectations aren't being met and communicate effectively.

I joined Cosmic Council SG on Excelsior a few months ago.  they are ULTRA organized.  They have MANY great players.  Quite a few speedrunners and max difficulty players.  I (as always) am a dirty casual.  

 

One of the things that fascinates me about this SG is the amazing willingness to share their knowledge.  Good (great!) players will spend hours telling you (and showing you) how to speedrun, build, market, badge, you name it.  They have events almost every day, often two events a day, all planned a week in advance on a calendar.  They are involved, helpful, and danged cool to hang with on Discord.

 

I too, even as a veteran, got frustrated when people sped through content.  I am a dedicated player of niche content.  So when top notch players knock down a TF while I am still looking at the map and wondering what the objective is I was like....oof.  How the F do I learn this?  Answer...Cosmic Council.  

 

I hope you find a group that plays in your style, and/or will help you learn their style.  As an MMORPG one of the great strengths is group play.  And communication and teaching are the backbone of any strong group.  

[Chrono-Bot]

Kinda had a guy like that on a team I was on today. Except he wasn't very good at soloing. He'd run off, die, and lie there until someone said 'you need a wakey?' and THEN he'd rez. 

 

So I say 'kinda' because the examples above, THOSE soloers are doing just fine. 

 

Soloers kind of stress me when I'm on a support character because when their health dips I want to you know, support them, but they're not within range and even though they're usually fine in the end it can really screw up my rotation due to reflexes.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

We are all at least a little bit different with different motivations. Only two things will lead you to disappointment in life. ONLY TWO! 

Unrealistic expectations 
Unrealized expectations 

In this case, your expectations were realistic. They just weren't realized. If you state what you expect and are then disappointed, shame on them. If you do not state your expectations and are disappointed, shame on you. 

 

 

So I guess your point is that you should make it clear that you are going to run around on your own when you join a teams so that you won't be disappointed when the leader kicks you before you get a chance to run around berserk and not work with team.

 

Well said.

 

Most of the time people know full well what they are getting involved with when the join one of my teams.

I warn them if they are off course. I make it clear that we are working as a team as necessary - in one way or another.

A majority conform. The very small minority can't understand why I could be bold enough to kick them for being a disruption on my teams. This has rarely happens, but at no time when this has occurred has anyone else on the team said it was unfounded. 

[Aurora_Girl]

3 hours ago, TheZag said:

I have not noticed this.  But most of my groups are with my friends so we just make fun of them if they die.

 

Somebody's gotta be Veng bait right?

[Aurora_Girl]

2 hours ago, Rosencrantz said:

Kinda had a guy like that on a team I was on today. Except he wasn't very good at soloing. He'd run off, die, and lie there until someone said 'you need a wakey?' and THEN he'd rez. 

 

So I say 'kinda' because the examples above, THOSE soloers are doing just fine. 

 

Soloers kind of stress me when I'm on a support character because when their health dips I want to you know, support them, but they're not within range and even though they're usually fine in the end it can really screw up my rotation due to reflexes.

 

I have always been a buffer-averse player myself, because it interrupts my murderizing, but a recent stint with an empathy corruptor and now a thermal one has taught me a key point: if you're outta my range/LoS, you're outta my GAF range too. 

[Ukase]

6 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

So I guess your point is that you should make it clear that you are going to run around on your own when you join a teams so that you won't be disappointed when the leader kicks you before you get a chance to run around berserk and not work with team.

Ha! I see what you did there. 
I personally don't sweat such things. If I'm on a team, I follow the directions of the team lead. If not, I should be kicked, and that's fair enough. 
The OP (and I suppose you and some others) seem to think that someone joining these teams implicitly understand what the lead wants. 

I don't know how I can be more clear: if the team lead makes their wishes known, those wishes should be respected. If it's a tf, those wishes should be expressed prior to starting. 

When I join a pug - which other than an MSR I have not done in over a year, aside from Patron missions,  I do ask if no directions are given - "We speeding or killing through or what?". 
If I don't like the answer, I excuse myself and leave. 

I'm just trying to be helpful and share why people might do things that are in opposition to the OP, and to inform the OP that not everyone will play the way they do. And yes - not everyone will play the way I do, either. That's why we have a team chat - to express these expectations prior to beginning. Makes for a better experience for everyone. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Ukase

[Wobegone]

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Most of the time people know full well what they are getting involved with when the join one of my teams.

I warn them if they are off course. I make it clear that we are working as a team as necessary - in one way or another.

A majority conform. The very small minority can't understand why I could be bold enough to kick them for being a disruption on my teams. This has rarely happens, but at no time when this has occurred has anyone else on the team said it was unfounded. 

This reminds me of a Numina I joined a couple weeks ago.  The team leader assigned each player specific zones they were responsible for the defeat missions, even stating 'write this down, the last team I led didn't follow directions'.  I almost quit right there, but decided to see what would happen.  It went as expected, as some players didn't know exactly where to find Sky raiders in Terra Volta or Tsoo in IP.  In my experience, things go smoother when folks leapfrog zones by twos and threes per zone for the hunts.  

 

It's one thing to state expectations going into a team or Task Force.  It's another for the team leader to recognize whether the team has overkill per mob.  A good team leader on a kill all Task Force steamroller will split the team for efficiency, or lacking that capacity will say nothing and do nothing if a player or two takes matters in their own hands in that situation.  

[Chrono-Bot]

47 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

 

I have always been a buffer-averse player myself, because it interrupts my murderizing, but a recent stint with an empathy corruptor and now a thermal one has taught me a key point: if you're outta my range/LoS, you're outta my GAF range too. 

I suppose! But I guess it's a case of - when I want to solo, I solo, but when I want to play with others/be on a team, I want to be a team player and it can be a little 'aw, hey, no, you're messing up my groove'

[Miss Magical]

This thread has been an interesting read. As a new player, I was never aware of any expectation for me to stick with the group all the time. I mean, I do, especially if I don’t know the mechanics or where to go, or if my character isn’t capable enough to solo yet. But if I know what I am doing and absent any specific requests from the party owner, I do often take things into my own hands.

 

To me, it just makes sense to split up if there are multiple objectives in an area and you can handle them individually. eg. if we’re trying to fill up 6 terminals on Keyes, or if there are 8 Security Chief? and we have to figure out which is the real one, or if whole groups are dying before I can get most of my debuffs out. On maps where I am very familiar with spawn locations, I sometimes move ahead to group enemies the way I think will be beneficial. Nobody so far has taken an issue with what I do, although I do keep an eye on the group and go back if it seems that would be more productive instead.

 

But I have, a few times, run into the behavior I think is being discussed. And in those cases it is very obvious because when you run up to the person to give them a buff, or if you join them to make the split in players more even, they deliberately run away from you or run further ahead with the half-killed spawn trailing behind them. I never could figure out what these people were trying to do. It can’t be to impress anyone, because soloing taskforces at maximum difficulty or killing faster than characters who are still leveling is not hard to do in the first place.

[Snarky]

36 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

This reminds me of a Numina I joined a couple weeks ago.  The team leader assigned each player specific zones they were responsible for the defeat missions, even stating 'write this down, the last team I led didn't follow directions'.  I almost quit right there, but decided to see what would happen.  It went as expected, as some players didn't know exactly where to find Sky raiders in Terra Volta or Tsoo in IP.  In my experience, things go smoother when folks leapfrog zones by twos and threes per zone for the hunts.  

 

It's one thing to state expectations going into a team or Task Force.  It's another for the team leader to recognize whether the team has overkill per mob.  A good team leader on a kill all Task Force steamroller will split the team for efficiency, or lacking that capacity will say nothing and do nothing if a player or two takes matters in their own hands in that situation.  

Yeah. I fully agree.  Telling people what to do is different than building consensus.  Those hunts are better done by people with knowledge of the maps.  If you post zones/mobs and ask for volunteers it usually works out.  Even if people dont say where they are going the team window shows the flow.  Asking someone to help out on X map can direct those who seem to be losing focus

[Greycat]

It's simple, as far as I'm concerned:

 

If you're joining a team, play as a teammate.

If you want to speed things up / stealth / etc, ask first. And don't assume "yes, this mission is long, that will help" = " do it with every mission." Some people might be fine with that. Ask and be sure first.

 

(Where that's been *really* frustrating is when I've been with an RP SG, worked up arcs with clues, ambushes, etc. and had someone decide "Well, I can run off and find the glowie." No, don't do that. Especially while everyone else is fighting and nobody notices until "hey, what's that path that's going through the rest of the map, where's that NPC dialog coming from..." )

[InvaderStych]

10 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

The team leader assigned each player specific zones they were responsible for the defeat missions, even stating 'write this down, the last team I led didn't follow directions'.

 

Completely unnecessary, and just asking for trouble; when I run Numina I just keep the list open in another tab, when we get to that point I'll call out to leap-frog and list off the order of the zones.  Enough of the team will start calling their zones, and those who are unfamiliar pick up upon what's going on basically immediately.

 

10 hours ago, Snarky said:

Yeah. I fully agree.  Telling people what to do is different than building consensus.  

 

OMFG! So Much This. 

 

Telling People What To Do =/= Leadership. Disseminating instructions is often part of leadership, but that is not the same thing as "Telling People What To Do."

 

40 minutes ago, Greycat said:

If you're joining a team, play as a teammate.

If you want to speed things up / stealth / etc, ask first. And don't assume "yes, this mission is long, that will help" = " do it with every mission." Some people might be fine with that. Ask and be sure first.

 

Wait, acting like a sentient entity that can interact successfully with other sentient entities? Perish the thought. 🤣

 

In all honesty, this is what I see when I play.  I've rarely run into anyone who acts as some of the more intolerant in this thread have described, and I cannot think of a single one of those instances I'd attribute to anything other than a player not knowing they were about to click on what will become a big can o-whoop-ass before the team was ready for it to appear.

 

I have, probably literally, never run into someone who's joined a team just to mess up someone else's day by splitting, stealthing, or "showing-off." Communication is Key.  Communication is Your Friend.  Communicate the type of "Run" you are leading to your team at a minimum; get more specific as needed.

Edited September 28, 2021 by InvaderStych

[JasperStone]

On 9/26/2021 at 7:22 AM, Snarky said:

wow.  this is where clarity really comes in.  like, it is clear Ultra's opinion is THE ONLY RIGHT ONE

 

seriously though, as a team leader if you want people to stick together....say it with me class..."ask them to stick together"  LEAD  your team your rules

 

having said that....i join a TF for merits/badges.  i know the task force, the objectives, and what my toon is capable of.  my goal is to accomplish the mission(s) for myself, the team, and the hope i will earn Recluse's love.  (just kidding, Ghost Widow i love you)  i will split off from the team to hasten these objectives.

 

i will also race to where a teammate is struggling, regardless of mission goals.  helping each other is part of it, and to me, fun.  unless the team leader says "let fred die, he went off on his own, i need you all on the AV"  good luck fred.  

 

lead, talk, be clear in the LFG ad, be clear when team is forming, be clear in the mission.  if i could read minds i would have a lot more cash.

 

This is Fred.

Fred is dead.

Don't be a Fred. 

 

Sorry Snarky ...it just popped into my head. ❤️