Wayback machine: Fire tanks

[kubwulf]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

 

Most of what you're talking about there is about Regen specifically getting nerfed. That's independent of ED. But this specific statement I've isolated because it is completely ridiculous. Nobody slotted secondary effects before ED. Attacks were almost always slotted with 5 or 6 damage.

 

I use regen as an example because I'm intimately familiar with how ED affected it.  

YOUR comment, "Nobody slotted secondary effects before ED." is ridiculous.  Many of us played since launch.  We were max level and bored.  Maybe not on your server, maybe not that you saw, but there were plenty of people slotting for secondary effects.  Until ED.  Simply because YOU think it is ridiculous because you never witnessed it (or never realized it), doesn't mean it didn't happen.  The original forums had a section for us deviants specifically to discuss builds with secondary slotting and how to use them in groups.  

Defenders slotting for -Accuracy, or -Defense were quite popular.  Controllers slotting for hold time were equally common.  

 

My SG had a weekly thing where we all played xxx/Rad controllers and we all slotted Accelerated Metabolism for a different effect.  One of us did run speed, another was damage, another was resist, another was end recovery...  It was awesome.  

Because you never saw it or never did it, doesn't mean that it didn't happen, nor does it mean that the builds weren't viable; because they were.  ED killed those types of builds whether you believe they existed or not is immaterial.  

[Aurora_Girl]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

Most of what you're talking about there is about Regen specifically getting nerfed. That's independent of ED. But this specific statement I've isolated because it is completely ridiculous. Nobody slotted secondary effects before ED. Attacks were almost always slotted with 5 or 6 damage.

 

Lies! I totally not-joking slotted all my Energy/energy blaster attacks with nothing but knockback. Totally. 100%. Not one single damage SO, no siree! 

[Wavicle]

56 minutes ago, kubwulf said:

 

I use regen as an example because I'm intimately familiar with how ED affected it.  

YOUR comment, "Nobody slotted secondary effects before ED." is ridiculous.  Many of us played since launch.  We were max level and bored.  Maybe not on your server, maybe not that you saw, but there were plenty of people slotting for secondary effects.  Until ED.  Simply because YOU think it is ridiculous because you never witnessed it (or never realized it), doesn't mean it didn't happen.  The original forums had a section for us deviants specifically to discuss builds with secondary slotting and how to use them in groups.  

Defenders slotting for -Accuracy, or -Defense were quite popular.  Controllers slotting for hold time were equally common.  

 

My SG had a weekly thing where we all played xxx/Rad controllers and we all slotted Accelerated Metabolism for a different effect.  One of us did run speed, another was damage, another was resist, another was end recovery...  It was awesome.  

Because you never saw it or never did it, doesn't mean that it didn't happen, nor does it mean that the builds weren't viable; because they were.  ED killed those types of builds whether you believe they existed or not is immaterial.  

 

 

Slotting Debuffs in a Debuff is not a secondary effect.

If you're claiming that Defenders routinely slotted Debuffs in their Damage attacks prior to ED you're going to need some evidence.
Slotting Holds in a Hold is also not a secondary effect.

 

The discussion was primarily about attacks and armor toggles. Yes, teams with multiple Rads always did ridiculous things, that also doesn't have anything to do with this topic.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Wavicle

[kubwulf]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

 

Slotting Debuffs in a Debuff is not a secondary effect.

If you're claiming that Defenders routinely slotted Debuffs in their Damage attacks prior to ED you're going to need some evidence.
Slotting Holds in a Hold is also not a secondary effect.

 

The discussion was primarily about attacks and armor toggles. Yes, teams with multiple Rads always did ridiculous things, that also doesn't have anything to do with this topic.

 

 

1) Stop trying to move the goal posts.  Either debate in good faith or just stop.  YOU specifically said 

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Attacks were almost always slotted with 5 or 6 damage.

 

xxx/Dark for a defender are attack powers.  These are the powers that allow the defender to do damage if they want to solo.  According to you, these attacks were "almost always slotted 5 or 6 damage".  Well, yes.  ALMOST always.  However, there were defenders that opted to slot for the -to hit and relied on the team to do the damage.  These were attacks slotted for the secondary.

 

2) I never said these builds were routine.

I have stated, multiple times, that these builds were niche.  They were fun alts trying something different.  They were not the norm.  Attempting to redirect my argument as these builds being the standard is a logical fallacy as I've never said anything to that effect.

3 hours ago, kubwulf said:

From the other perspective, niche builds were lost.

 

3 hours ago, kubwulf said:

I can't achieve what I had before ED with certain niche builds

 

1 hour ago, kubwulf said:

We were max level and bored

 

1 hour ago, kubwulf said:

The original forums had a section for us deviants

 

Now, I've quoted myself here supporting that I've said these were niche and that those of us that engaged in this practice were deviants.  So please stop debating as if I've said this was normal and routine.

 

3) The OP was asking about fire tanks and was led down a rabbit hole about ED.  You think ED saved the game.  You might be right.  You might be wrong.  Either way, the niche builds that relied on 6-slotting to make them viable were lost.  You can continue to claim they never existed, or you can acknowledge that there was a small population of players that opted to do something different and the implementation of ED killed many of those options.

[Aurora_Girl]

Isn't "niche" sometimes a "sanitation supervisor"-esque way of misspelling "very bad plan?"

[Deuce Spade]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

 

Slotting Debuffs in a Debuff is not a secondary effect.

If you're claiming that Defenders routinely slotted Debuffs in their Damage attacks prior to ED you're going to need some evidence.
Slotting Holds in a Hold is also not a secondary effect.

 

The discussion was primarily about attacks and armor toggles. Yes, teams with multiple Rads always did ridiculous things, that also doesn't have anything to do with this topic.

I had a Kin/Elec defender that soloed to 50, and once I had FS I had six end mod in each attack power.  He was maybe the most fun I ever had leveling a character.  It was issue 3, I think. FS, SC, BL, cleanup.  First attack from stealth, and then complete safety because they were all drained.

 

He was definitely an outlier though.  I mainly played scrappers and tanks, and they all had 5 dam 1 acc in their attacks.  Hasten was 6 slotted rchg, and that made it perma back then.

 

Issue 1-2, I remember thinking what a big deal my Inv/Axe tank was.  He was herding the Shadowhunter map and PLing SG mates.  Then I watched an Inv/EM abuse mob stacking on the family farm and wipe out several spawns with one Total Focus? (was it the final attack back then? Don't remember), and sad trombones played in my head every wolf map thereafter.

 

I guess they implemented ED to "fix" those kinds of things, but I never felt more superpowered, and still haven't. 

[Ukase]

8 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Attacks were almost always slotted with 5 or 6 damage.

That statement is patently false. I was in issue 3. 
I slotted one SO of every type allowed. It's true! I'm not saying that was a good way to go - definitely not. I just didn't know any better. I didn't know the forums even existed then. 
It wasn't until ...I think it was snipe, on my elec/elec blaster (I really need to try and remake one of those) where all the allowed enhancements exceeded the number of slots. It was quite confusing. I thought the enhancements that were allowed HAD to be slotted. It never occurred to me to slot anything else. 

A teammate once asked me how I was able to keep a mostly full endurance bar. I had an end reduction SO in every power I had just about. In some cases I didn't because I didn't have enough slots to slot that particular power yet. That was when they told me I needed to get to the forums and read and educate myself. 

We can look at our teammate's powers, but we never had a clue what they actually had slotted. So making such a blanket statement is likely not precise. While it's true the vocal majority suggested such, there were a number of players who never did things like that. Some by design, and some out of ignorance. 

[Solarverse]

18 hours ago, Sovera said:

No, Incarnates and IOs certainly give a lot of power but pre-ED was nutty by everything I read and jolly good riddance. The game was not sustainable. It sounds like it was as much fun as playing with cheats on, which is a very short term thing before boredom comes in.

Not really. AV's and GM's hit much harder and it took a hell of a lot more to kill them in those days. For an example, Clockwork King hurt like hell, you did not use Fire Tanks as your main Tank against him because Fire Tanks would drop in a single hit and his AoE at 25% health had the capability of dropping the whole team if you did not have a buffer on the team. Today, Clockwork King drops like a bad habit, quite pathetic in my opinion. In those days, going up against an AV, people typically built well rounded teams to get through the AV's or else your team was going to have a REALLY tough time. So although we were far more powerful against mobs, AV's made up for it and they had a hell of a lot more staying power. So some aspects were much easier, but other aspects were not. If you were on a team for regular missions that was not being ran by a herding Tank, then even those missions could be tough since back then, ambush mobs typically team wiped your team if your Tank was not on his toes, and there was no aggro limit, so if your Tank bit off more than he could chew, your team was toast.

For me, unless you were on a team with a herding Tank, a lot of those missions were far more challenging. Let's not forget that in those days you could not play missions at +0, you played them whatever they were designed to be. Add in a high debt (which debt is just a joke now) and players struggled not to die. Everyone acts like the game was easy street, but how soon do they forget, not every Tank was a herding Tank in those days...it was a good mix of both types of Tanks.

[Ohsirus]

Wish we could have a Classic COH Server, Pre-ED, Agro, etc. 

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Ohsirus said:

Wish we could have a Classic COH Server, Pre-ED, Agro, etc. 

 

Pretty sure some of the other server clusters have gotten rid of aggro caps. I don't know about pre-ED.

[Wavicle]

Random people saying "I didn't slot like that" doesn't change the facts.

The REASON Enhancement Diversification was called that is because it was intended to encourage people to slot some other way besides 6 of their favorite thing. And it worked. Now we slot a few each of several things, as intended.

[Wavicle]

Yea, I get not EVERYONE just 6 slotted one thing, but the fact is that was the most common slotting by a wide margin.

[nihilii]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:54 PM, Sovera said:

We don't nearly get Hasten perma 'out of the box' by just adding more slots and we certainly don't go around with the equivalent of triple perma BU by having things six slotted for damage. We also don't get softcap defense.

 

I think the biggest thing that gives people the impression oldschool characters were more powerful than incarnates of today is the reputation system of the time. The highest you could go was +2/x1. There weren't highend TFs, much less Incarnate trials. The toughest stuff you'd face in an instanced mission was a lone archvillain. Even enemy power selection was markedly weaker than the higher tier foes of today.

 

6 slotted for damage was +200% damage. Compared to +95% damage from enhancements, ~+35% from Musculature T4, ~+10% from Assault T4, ~+10% from damage set bonuses = ~+150%. We're talking a +50% damage difference here. Totals of 250% and 300%, so a ~20% relative damage difference.

And yeah, that would still be pretty sizeable. But...

..there weren't procs to boost damage further

...no Gaussian proc for Build Up either

...no global recharge for a fast flowing attack chain

...no global accuracy, no Kismet. So you generally did a mix of getting Focused Accuracy, or living with some whiffing, or going with 1 ACC 5 DAM rather than 6 DAM (which significantly lowers the damage gap here)... and that was OKish because once again, the hardest thing you were going to face was a level 52 freakshow boss. Most oldschool builds wouldn't cut it against level 54 enemies.

Especially because they had no incarnate level shift either. That alone more than makes up for the ~20% relative damage difference, against +4s: you deal 0.48 damage without level shift, 0.65 damage without level shift. That's a 35% relative damage difference here in favor of newschool builds.

 

We're not touching Destiny or Lore either. 6-slotted Stamina was nice, sure; but by and large not enough to sustain 6 DAM slotted attacks going at full speed, especially if you ran Focused Accuracy. Many people used highly suboptimal attack chains and begged for Emps to cover their blue bar. Some made do with 6-slotted Conserve Power.

 

Stamina pool not being free either meant one less power pool. Can't get Hasten and Jumping and Fighting and Leadership. Gotta get one travel power too unless you enjoy being slow, as Ninja Run wasn't a thing.

Oldschool balance (and brokenness) was a mix of lack of challenge, comparatively speaking, and certain very specific powers and powersets being overpowered. Even PI radio teams of today face tougher odds! +4/x8 Carnival or Malta is harder than anything I3 had to offer, save for Hamidon.
 

[Wavicle]

Did it not go up to +2/x2? I can’t remember anymore.

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, nihilii said:

Loadsa stuff

 

I wasn't even aware of the difficulty level and everything else.

 

Yes, that does put Wavicle's words more in perspective and I have to back down. Put that way we are more powerful nowadays.

[nihilii]

It was +0/x1, +0/x2, +1/x1, +1/x2, and +2/x1 ("Invincible!"). But come to think of it, there was that potential level spread, so I'm wrong above: the toughest indoor foes were level 53 rather than level 52. Which more or less means equals to level 54s if we abstract the level shift from incarnates. But, your regular mission boss is always always at the base level, so AVs were +2.

[0th Power]

19 hours ago, nihilii said:

6 slotted for damage was +200% damage.

300% with 50% HOs

[nihilii]

On 10/12/2021 at 7:24 PM, 0th Power said:

300% with 50% HOs

 

Now that's interesting to think about. I played on the European servers, and we barely could take on Hamidon. There definitely wasn't the same farming as on US servers. So ++ SOs were the best you were going to get, realistically. With uber HOs I could see the scale tipping back to oldschool characters. Especially as you got the accuracy part taken care of too. Very different ceilings for power based on where you happened to play!

Edited October 13, 2021 by nihilii

[Deuce Spade]

I've wished for an Issue 1-3ish version of the game for a while, but the fun I remember probably couldn't be replicated.  Most of the excitement had less to do with game systems and more to do with OMFG I get to play a superhero.  That first time I logged into the game I was sold.

 

I left after ED and went to WoW.  I didn't come back until IOs were a thing, and really, the game is better now in the sense that you have something to strive for when kitting out a build.

[honoroit]

wow, firey aura 🔥 / claws is crazy good.  you dont need haste.  primal mastery seems wise.  hover is a good idea.

 

got mine from 1 to 38 today, chain tfs and 2 levels in 'big mob tunnel at ~20 to test if i could +1/8, yes, but not without streaming 2 purples and a survival amp)

 

eviscerate (the flip one) ill likely drop, and will pick up consume again. oh shit, maybe lazer beam eyes for the peoples pleasure... we'll see.

 

what i did not know is 'power of the phoenix' can be used when youre alive and below 75% health..... which... is awesome!

 

i have only 1 slot in my armors so far.... its nailbiting.  i figure im like a scrapper with taunt, whos weaker but hits more things.

 

and so quick... i really like savage, but these ruluru long claws... so good.

 

say hi if you see 'Dalton Crey' on excelsior.

Edited April 3, 2023 by honoroit
spells!

[Solarverse]

Comprehensive List of all Nerfs that were implemented for one reason or another (officially) but most players of that time knew that the reasons given were bullshit and many of the nerfs were made purely to stop Fire Tanks from Herding and Power Leveling/Influence Farming. These were the nerfs in order as I can remember and the counter to those nerfs listed as well. Remember, this is very old memory, so take it with a grain of salt, but this is how I remember it going down.

1: Aggro Distance Nerf. NPCs would stop chasing you for extremely long distances and would lose interest quicker. (I could be confusing this one with another game though, take this one with a grain of salt.)

Players adjusted gameplay by continuing to regain aggro every so often to maintain high mobs

 

2: Mission Timers. Missions that were commonly used to Herd mobs, such as Ninjas and Wolves missions, had timers added to them so they could not be farmed.

 

Players adjusted simply by moving on to the next best mission, resulting in a LOT of missions getting timers added every time players started using them for Herding.

 

3: Ambush mob nerf. Ambush mobs were either cut way low, or removed all together.

 

Players were pretty upset over this one, since the only way to get around it, was to start farming a different mission.

 

4: Recharge time extended on Burn.

 

Players would now keep pocket Kins, who would keep their recharge buffed.

 

5: Fear added to Burn.

 

Players started adding more Taunt enhancements in their build to counteract the fear.

 

6: More Fear added to Burn.

 

Players started using Pocket Trollers to hold mobs in Burn Patch.

 

7: More Recharge time extended on Burn.

 

Players now started sacrificing Damage for more Recharge Enhancements

 

8: Burn no longer tics every half second, it now has upfront damage, the tics of damage were greatly decreased and would only tic about 4 or 5 times instead of 20+ times.

 

Players would pop Reds to compensate for the damage changes.

 

9: Enhancement Diversification. Having more than a couple of the same enhancement now was pointless, since the more of the same enhancement you have, the less percentages you get from them.

 

This along with 10 put the final nail in the coffin. Players started leaving the game.

 

10: Aggro Nerf. Now, instead of no limit to aggro a Tank can hold, it was nerfed to a max number that was so small, it made players quit playing the game in droves.
 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Solarverse

[SomeGuy]

He could be referring to the initial Burn nerf. After that initial nerf, Burn was pretty crap until it got re-worked in to it's current iteration. It isn't as poweful for AOE as it was then (yeah, think about that) but it's ST output can't be argued. The max-target thing wasn't just directed at tankers. Wolf farms where a tanker would herd up the entire map followed by a single blaster just nuking the entire group was pretty common. Big reason wolves run so much and those maps with nothing but wolves have timers now.

 

My first 50 was a Claws/Regen. Well over 400 hours to hit 50. Next 50 was a Fire/Ice tanker. Took me exactly 50 hours. After I got burn it took me a few hours of play to max out. Who remembers the PI zone broadcast spam of "Looking for a level 44 bridge?". The sidekick system THEN was great and they made it even better to what it is today.

[SomeGuy]

On 10/11/2021 at 4:07 PM, nihilii said:

 

Stuff

 

 

 

Yeah, our characters can be exponentially more powerful now than pre-ED. ED was just implemented poorly. Very poorly. Until sets were a thing, ED really pooped on the game for anyone that got to experience 6 slotting HOs (which were *50%). That and they were telling everyone in the CoV Beta to be quiet about this MASSIVE nerf to the entire game that was gonna go live when CoV went live.

 

Your post reminded me that the Fitness pool was an "optional" choice that was mandatory to take, I was definitely one of the folks that argued it should be inherent and was screamed at by folks for saying such a bold statement. And here we are...

[ivanhedgehog]

On 10/11/2021 at 2:26 AM, Aurora_Girl said:

Isn't "niche" sometimes a "sanitation supervisor"-esque way of misspelling "very bad plan?"

my rad/rad defender slotted as an AV killer was not a bad idea. I may not have done a lot of damage but man I was a great damage multiplier for my team.

[StrikerFox]

If I remember correctly, Burn was nerfed. Reduced radius, reduced targets, reduced ticks. Targets fled burn patches. Movement speed penalty when in battle was implemented. 10 target max aggro. Before the nerf, farmers would pull the whole Dreck map. Taunt, run to the next group and repeat. Until the whole map is dogpiling the Tank with continuous Burn patches active.

 

I kind of remember it because I had a SS/Fire Tanker I used to PL/farm. A tray full of purples and I was good to go. After the nerf, it felt impossible. Sure, it was still doable but the amount of time it took to finish the map increased 10x or more.

 

One day a Cryptic Studios big wig was in game, everyone flocked to zone for a meet and greet. He was only level 27 or something and I offered to PL him. He declined. The following update a few months later, the nerfs were implemented. I like to think I was the cause of that.