Fury of the gladiator -res proc

[Snarky]

14 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Please list the actual critter attacks that fall between mag 3 and mag 4 knockback protection.

 

Now granted I don't actually use any characters with mag 3 kb protection iirc unless that bonus is coming from 3pc gladiators armor, because I do not find slotting 3pc fury of the gladiator to be worthwhile in a pbaoe attack compared to other available options, but I think you will find the difference between mag 3 and mag 4 kb protection to be virtually non existent if blessing of the zephyr, karma, or steadfast do not fit as comfortably in your build. Just as there is almost no difference in actual gameplay between mag 8 and mag 12 kb protection, which I know for a fact there is no value in slotting mag 8 kb protection. Mag 12 kb prot can find several uses such as Rikti pylons and those clockwork bosses in incarnate content.

lol. no.  i was told long ago back on live that 3 or less Kb prot is meh, 4 is good.  4-7 is about the same.  8 is slightly better than 4.  8-11 is practically the same.  12 is better yet.  No.  i do not have the data.  

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

lol. no.  i was told long ago back on live that 3 or less Kb prot is meh, 4 is good.  4-7 is about the same.  8 is slightly better than 4.  8-11 is practically the same.  12 is better yet.  No.  i do not have the data.  

I generally did 6 pts minimum, up to 8 or 9, but recently I tried the whole pylon fad and realized I needed 12 on characters intended for true glory.. well, there’s temps for that, but temps rightfully make any person with a conscience feel dirty.

Edited December 1, 2021 by arcane

[DreadShinobi]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

lol. no.  i was told long ago back on live that 3 or less Kb prot is meh, 4 is good.  4-7 is about the same.  8 is slightly better than 4.  8-11 is practically the same.  12 is better yet.  No.  i do not have the data.  

I'll toss your 'lol. no.' right back at ya. You will not find a difference between 3 and 4. Actually try playing a character with mag 3 kb prot and see what puts you on your back. The only difference between 4 and 8 is that you wasted a slot, it isn't  better it is actually worse because  of the slot tax. For the same reason 12 is also not better because the situations where  you would need mag 12 in prot are so rare you can just get the sg base temp and save you build 2 slots. 

[MoonSheep]

it’s not too bad, some people massively overhype it 

 

i’ve included it in Sleet for some extra -res at times

 

it won’t change your life but all procs are a good bit of a fun

[A Cat]

Other than ATO's or FF + recharge, I only ever use damage procs in attacks. The big orange numbers really activates my monkey brain. If I can help it, I like to have my most damaging attack loaded with procs and damage enhancements. It's very satisfying to just chunk off huge amounts of hp. I do use the -res procs in my farm build though. I was just copying someone else's build and have no idea if it would be worth it or not. I typically afk farm so clear speed is not very important to me since I usually don't check/reset often enough for continuous farming. 

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

I'll toss your 'lol. no.' right back at ya. You will not find a difference between 3 and 4. Actually try playing a character with mag 3 kb prot and see what puts you on your back. The only difference between 4 and 8 is that you wasted a slot, it isn't  better it is actually worse because  of the slot tax. For the same reason 12 is also not better because the situations where  you would need mag 12 in prot are so rare you can just get the sg base temp and save you build 2 slots. 

Nice.  I get by with a 4pt Botz 4 pt in fly for my Dark Armor Brute.  Never have a problem with Knockback.  seriously.  never.  I mean if i face BaB then yeah, I might get launched.  But it is so rare to have KB issues I cannot recall it happening.  Good to know 3 is same as 4.  But I dont feel like the slot in fly is a 'tax'  what else would go there.  stealth proc goes in inherent sprint if ever needed... Could slap a winter gift slow res in there....but sort of the same deal.  armoring up against the rare things.

[roleki]

Would also add, the efficacy of a -Res debuff is sometimes dependent on the build/AT, and in the case of a proc, its delivery method.  Put an Achilles' Heel -Res proc in Corrosive Vial on a Defender, and you'll notice the uptick but it's not enough of an impact to make you an evangelist on the subject. Put it on a Corruptor or a Controller, and suddenly things get rather interesting thanks to Scourge/Containment - especially on the Corruptor, who can usually get three attacks off in the 10s debuff window.   

 

If I can fit it into the build, I like the same Corrosive Vial setup on Scrappers that do commonly-resisted damage (like MA or Axe) because you can typically clear all the mooks in your vicinity off a Superior Critical Strikes hit followed by an AoE, and that's just a time-saver right there.

Edited December 1, 2021 by roleki

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 11/30/2021 at 8:19 AM, Sovera said:

It's definitely worth it if you're fighting pylons 😄

 

For actual gameplay not so much. If no one else in the team has it it will improve the damage on an AV by about... I want to say.. 2-3 percent. And almost nothing to nothing on normal mobs.

 

Not spreadsheet, I tested it. Clearing a map with -res procs showed no difference from doing it with damage procs slotted in instead. Fighting +4 AV (+3 with alpha) and two -res procs was an improvement of 5-8%. Since we're talking of using just one -res it won't even be that. But on the plus side the damage is multiplied by 8 people in a team. As long as no one else also has the -res slotted since as you've said it does not stack.

 

Now on a pylon it's godly since it does not resist -res effects and is +0. 5-8% for two -res procs? Nope. 25%! No wonder people love those procs when they test on a pylon and the pylon is the one perfect enemy for that.

 

Change every instance of pylon in this post to arch-villain, monster or giant monster. It will read a bit different for the usefulness of -res procs.

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Change every instance of pylon in this post to arch-villain, monster or giant monster. It will read a bit different for the usefulness of -res procs.

indeed.  i mentally make that change anytime i hear pylon.  i fight pylons during a msr....hardly counts.  we really have two different games in PvE   either large groups of trash sprinkled with bosses or super hard targets with giant health sacks.  i read all forum posts with an eye to how it will affect either of those environments.  I do not PvP and I dont pound Pylons like they owe me money.

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Change every instance of pylon in this post to arch-villain, monster or giant monster. It will read a bit different for the usefulness of -res procs.

 

I've mentioned both AVs and pylons.

[Redletter]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:47 PM, wjrasmussen said:

Looking at getting this but wonder if the -res is worth much.  It doesn't seem to say it stacks nor does it list the duration of the debuff.  Any opinions.

 

Do you have a power it can be slotted into?

 

If no: Skip, or make a character who can slot if you happen to have one.

If yes: Do you have a full 6 piece set you intend to fill the power/powers with?

 

If no: Get this.

If yes: Is there NO io or set bonus from the set you could live without?

 

If no: Get this.

If yes: Slot that set somewhere else, and GET THIS.

 

This is on my elec/elec tanker. I bought it because I noticed her damage was so abysmal that soloing some late game/end game content with her was pratically impossible since while she was functionally unkillable, she couldnt secure a kill to pass a mission in under two hours. Immediately after slotting it, there were bursts of time where I could chunk enemies hard enough that fights that were previously stalemates became winnable battles of attrition.

 

That's on a class that ISNT rolling face. I imagine if she were a Brute, or a Scrapper, this would be an EVEN BETTER selection.

[Redletter]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:12 PM, Snarky said:

 I dont pound Pylons like they owe me money.

Maybe you SHOULD though?

 

 

Because they DO...

[Ukase]

I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread, and if not - for shame! 

Here's the truth about an IO "Proc" like the -res. How consistently it fires depends on a number of factors. To get it straight from the source, use the forums to search for @Bopper.
Find his post about all his stuff here: 

PPM - the larger the value, the better odds of firing. 
Activation time - the larger, the better odds of firing.
Base Recharge - the longer the recharge, the better the odds of firing.

Recharge Slotting - the more recharge you have slotted in that power, the lower the odds of firing. 

The dilemma with all this math is it can be quite overwhelming! To get the recharge slotting value requires a solid understanding of basic math - but more importantly, how CoH calculates the buffs of each enhancement in a set, and accounts for enhancement diversification. (For newer players - this is a fairly deep rabbit hole. If I went into it here, it would take up quite a bit of space and likely bore you to tears, because I'm overly verbose, as I try to share ALL the details. Trying as best I can to be concise, but that's not a natural tendency of mine. Even though Mids may have errors in it here and there, I will open mids, and use it's math because those folks that built Mids are better at math than I am. See a pattern? A LOT of people are better at math than I am! 

So, you have options. You can do a lot of reading and master procs yourself, or you can look for boppers spreadsheet, pull up mids and fill in the blanks and let his calculator do the work for you. 

Or, you can look at from the long term view. Rumor has it that procs are going to be changed in a future issue. I don't know how, but odds are that whatever the changes are, you'll have to burn some unslotters at best, or perform a respec at worst. If you're like me and you have a lot of alts, you're thinking about this potential change and wondering if maybe a damage IO isn't a better option. Only you can answer that question for yourself. Also, keep in mind that your Alpha slot is basically an extra enhancement in every power you have that will take that kind of enhancement. 

So, if you have Agility - the percentages will vary with Core or Radial, but you'll have some recharge in it. So, that recharge is effectively slotted in that power with the proc, so it can effect the math, and as a result, impact the odds of the proc firing. And I'm not convinced Mids takes this into account, as I've never checked for it. I only use a proc if the odds of firing are 95% or higher, and figure Agility would change the odds from 95% to about 75%. I can live with that. There are other Alphas that will have no impact at all, but there are other alphas that could. Just depends on how much recharge they give. 

That's a lot to absorb, I get it. Short answer, like always..."It Depends!". 


 

 

[Pzn]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

Or, you can look at from the long term view. Rumor has it that procs are going to be changed in a future issue.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is on the backburner for now at least.  With the advanced difficulty options in Aeon my proc heavy builds are struggling.  Min/max suddenly has issues when the necessary minimums have been shifted.  All that overkill accuracy most people have from set bonuses suddenly matters when the enemies are buffed.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Pzn said:

I wouldn't be surprised if this is on the backburner for now at least.  With the advanced difficulty options in Aeon my proc heavy builds are struggling.  Min/max suddenly has issues when the necessary minimums have been shifted.  All that overkill accuracy most people have from set bonuses suddenly matters when the enemies are buffed.

 

Aye. Makes me glad I never got on the procmonster boat. Not to say I don't do it with some powers like infrigidate or fault but beyond that I prefer stayin standard.

[tidge]

I feel like I don't see this acknowledged enough:

 

21 minutes ago, Pzn said:

With the advanced difficulty options in Aeon my proc heavy builds are struggling.  Min/max suddenly has issues when the necessary minimums have been shifted.  All that overkill accuracy most people have from set bonuses suddenly matters when the enemies are buffed.

 

I've spent a lot of time leading Penny Yin TFs with (pre-recent) boosted difficulty settings, and uniformly the most chatted observation is "I can't hit anything!"... even more than "No Endurance!" I should disclose, even the most ill-equipped teams that have faced this content still were able to finish the TF in just over an hour... so it isn't as if this becomes a terrible slog. I always enjoyed these runs because they really encourage teamwork, and they can be a great source of XP for lower level characters.

 

Back to the Gladiator's proc: Something else I realized that works against me including it in more final (solo play) builds is that it is unique. If I had the chance to slot it into more powers with the hope of extending the duration of the debuff I'd feel better about it. This thread has a few of my characters now carrying around copies (with unslotters) to drop it into certain powers for some PUG content.

[BurtHutt]

I put this into a build if there's room. I will usually prioritize set bonuses over something like this. Sure, it has a decent chance of firing in a couple of main attack types but then the -res duration is approximately 10 seconds. So, an attack or two may hit with the -res is in effect. Timing, it's everything. Do I want to always make efforts to time attacks etc? Probably not. Sometimes it'll be a big help but, to me, considering the duration, chance to proc and amount of attacks you can land in that duration...well...it's not a huge deal.

 

Off on a tangent, I usually always take build up or similar powers in builds but now I sometimes question if I need the power (for the same reasons as noted above). Probably because I've CoX'ed a lot during the pandemic and I want to change things up.

Edited December 3, 2021 by BurtHutt

[Peacemoon]

Basic consideration, does the extra damage you get for the -res debuff equal the damage you’d get from it proccing damage instead? In most cases, a pure damage proc will save you the hassle of having to take advantage of the increased damage on follow up hits.

 

Other things to consider:

If you don’t have many aoes then you might not be able to capitalise on the -res and the pure damage would be better 

if you are a hard hitting AT the extra damage may outweigh the pure damage proc, providing you can take advantage.
if you are in a team your -res proc won’t stack with anyone else’s.

 

On balance I would advise most people to use pure damage rather than -res in the majority of situations. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Peacemoon

[wjrasmussen]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I feel like I don't see this acknowledged enough:

 

 

I've spent a lot of time leading Penny Yin TFs with (pre-recent) boosted difficulty settings, and uniformly the most chatted observation is "I can't hit anything!"... even more than "No Endurance!" I should disclose, even the most ill-equipped teams that have faced this content still were able to finish the TF in just over an hour... so it isn't as if this becomes a terrible slog. I always enjoyed these runs because they really encourage teamwork, and they can be a great source of XP for lower level characters.

 

Back to the Gladiator's proc: Something else I realized that works against me including it in more final (solo play) builds is that it is unique. If I had the chance to slot it into more powers with the hope of extending the duration of the debuff I'd feel better about it. This thread has a few of my characters now carrying around copies (with unslotters) to drop it into certain powers for some PUG content.

what if they changed it for a long duration?

[tidge]

10 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

what if they changed it for a long duration?

 

You mean the duration of the %proc? Obviously longer times with a Resistance debuff on an enemy would be better, since the PBAoE attacks that take this specific %proc are generally lower damage against a single hard target, so following up more several high-damage ST attacks against the same target is better that fewer high-damage ST attacks.

 

There is a more reliable way to apply -Res available to everyone was mentioned by @Mezmera Weaken Resolve. This is single target only, but I think the ("do you have to hit twice?") case has been made that it it pretty much against hard single targets with sacks of HP where most of the value in a -Res debuff is. A debuff from Weaken Resolve is guaranteed on a hit (and can take an additional -Res %proc !) with the obvious difference that Weaken Resolve isn't an inherently damaging attack (modulo a couple of %damage pieces) with a chance of -Res.

 

Some AT (Soldiers of Arachnos come to mind) that can focus on lots of AoE attacks might find slightly more value in AoE %-Res than %damage in 0x8 content, but that falls under what was discussed above by several players.

[roleki]

3 hours ago, Pzn said:

I wouldn't be surprised if this is on the backburner for now at least.  With the advanced difficulty options in Aeon my proc heavy builds are struggling.  Min/max suddenly has issues when the necessary minimums have been shifted.  All that overkill accuracy most people have from set bonuses suddenly matters when the enemies are buffed.

 

Even though I had no idea the advanced difficulty options were coming, a while back I stopped rolling so-called 'proc monsters' because the further away from PI Radio Missions you got, the worse they performed.  I like the idea of the devs saving themselves the work of re-coding procs by adding difficulty options; that gets some players what they want (moar harder!) without crapping on builds that live (and ultimately, die) by the RNG.  

[Riverdusk]

On 11/30/2021 at 2:05 PM, DreadShinobi said:

Please list the actual critter attacks that fall between mag 3 and mag 4 knockback protection.

 

Now granted I don't actually use any characters with mag 3 kb protection iirc unless that bonus is coming from 3pc gladiators armor, because I do not find slotting 3pc fury of the gladiator to be worthwhile in a pbaoe attack compared to other available options, but I think you will find the difference between mag 3 and mag 4 kb protection to be virtually non existent if blessing of the zephyr, karma, or steadfast do not fit as comfortably in your build. Just as there is almost no difference in actual gameplay between mag 8 and mag 12 kb protection, which I know for a fact there is no value in slotting mag 8 kb protection. Mag 12 kb prot can find several uses such as Rikti pylons and those clockwork bosses in incarnate content.

 

Almost all my squishies get a 3 piece gladiator's armor set.  And yep, the 3 kb protect I get from doing that is enough that I am surprised the rare time I get knocked down.  Probably a fake nem staff force bolt is the most often it actually happens which is definitely over mag 4.

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Almost all my squishies get a 3 piece gladiator's armor set.  And yep, the 3 kb protect I get from doing that is enough that I am surprised the rare time I get knocked down.  Probably a fake nem staff force bolt is the most often it actually happens which is definitely over mag 4.

Yep, 30% chance for a mag 9 kb, per CoD.