Blaster Knockback powers

[Techwright]

4 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

Exactly my point!

So the question is, must a dev name it after it landing, its flight, or its origin? Seems to me, they went for the middle ground in the discussion.   It does spend an awful lot of time in flight.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

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Do you know what else no other secondary effect has? 

The choice to do everything you just stated.

 

You make that sound like a good thing. You think I enjoy sacrificing slots just to negate the secondary? Sure, it's great to have that choice, but it's not great to sacrifice other things to do so.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

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I can't slot an enhancement which makes the +Acc in my Archery powers do something different, I'm just stuck with a shitty secondary effect.  I can't make the -Recharge in my Ice attacks change in any way, I'm stuck with a fixed amount of -Recharge.

 

Your +Acc in Archery is literally not being hated on by anyone...like at all. Not once have I ever seen somebody on a team ask you not to use +Acc, heh. You are comparing a Firebird with a Pinto. Not a fair comparison.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

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No-one puts a gun to anyone's head and orders them to create characters who use KB powers.  There's no coercion or deception being perpetuated, no information being deliberately obscured.  Attacks which deal KB

state that they deal KB, and just looking at the power information at character creation or in the game proper tells players exactly how high the KB magnitude is and whether it's guaranteed or % chance.  People choose to take those attacks and use them, and if they want to, they have the additional option of converting that KB to KD.

 

Yeah, we get it, you hate KB.  But you chose to make that Energy blaster, you chose to slot those attacks with KB->KD IOs.  You're neither stupid nor ignorant about this game, so you damn well knew what you were doing when you made that character and spent those slots in that way.  You are responsible for your own choices and the consequences thereof.

 

Ummm, you are missing one key component. Theme, concept, it all matters in this game. Since Solarverse is indeed an Energy Blaster/Tank in my comics, Energy is the only choice for him. So it was either accept that it has KB, or don't create him at all. Sure, it was a choice. But so is a company telling you that if you leave the building just before a tornado hits, that you will be terminated from the company. So yeah, leaving is a choice, but then again, it's not really a choice if you want to keep your job, is it? Same thing here. You either play it as is if you want the theme, or you don't play it at all. Sure, having KB to KD IOs is great, however, considering that no other secondary affect on any other powers is hated on, not even a little bit, powers with KB do not deserve to have to sacrifice slots to make it KD. So your point really doesn't negate anything I have said.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

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And yes, I do, in fact, understand.  I have three KB->KD IOs on my Grav/TA controller, three more on my Grav/Fire dominator and two on my Bots/TA mastermind.  But

I don't feel a need to shout at people on the forums or blow up because I used those slots for those enhancements.

 

Hold up, I didn't blow up at anyone. At best I gave a tongue in cheek joke if nothing else. Maybe you are referring to some argument I have had in the distant past, but I have not even gotten in to a heated debate about this in well over a year or two. No blowing up here, I am simply giving my thoughts which I feel have some validity to them.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

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Lastly, there are a

lot of secondary effects, and allowing players with KB powers to slot a single KB->KD IO and reap the benefits while all other secondaries are not given the same opportunity is bullshit, and you should damn well know it.

 

Again, you are comparing a Firebird to a Pinto. All other secondaries are beneficial to all teams. Nobody ever complained about Dark's -ToHit. Nobody ever has complained about -Recharge from Ice, nobody ever has complained about -Defense from Rad. Not once has a leader of a team kicked a player off the team for having any of those. Which secondary affect has been given complete hell since day one of this game? Knock Back. So no, it's not bulls**t one single bit. I have a valid point, a valid argument and comparing apples to oranges doesn't really make a great counter argument.

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Don't obsess over it.

 

Again, check my history, I am fairly certain that I have not even touched on this subject in a year or better. I hardly think I am obsessing over anything.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Solarverse

[Black Zot]

Just now, Aurora_Girl said:

 

...no, no it is not. 

 

Dropping an MDC right next to the tank during a multi-AV fight? *That* is griefing. 

 

Yes, it very much is.  You're actively choosing to use a power that you know will screw things up for your team.  That is griefing.  End of discussion.

[0th Power]

3 minutes ago, Techwright said:

So the question is, must a dev name it after it landing, its flight, or its origin? Seems to me, they went for the middle ground in the discussion.   It does spend an awful lot of time in flight.

But it always hits (the ground). Plus that’s when it does the damage. 

[Hew]

8 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I have not even gotten in to a heated debate about this in well over a year or two.

Elephants have long memories!

[Techwright]

 

[Glacier Peak]

I like the set and its mechanics and I think change is good. I'd recommend learning the mechanics and adapting it to a new playstyle or just continue to complain about it on the forums, or whatever change you don't like this week.

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I like the set and its mechanics and I think change is good. I'd recommend learning the mechanics and adapting it to a new playstyle or just continue to complain about it on the forums, or whatever change you don't like this week.

Scattering mobs to the 4 corners of the map is NOT a new playstyle.  Neither can you "adapt" to it unless you like hunting them down one by one to ST the things down.  Some of us do not have 3 extra powers to squeeze in Fold Space because a teammate has a fascination for watching enemies fly across the map.

[Hardboiled Hero]

I just figured the devs were looking for ways to incentivize NOT taking hover on every single character with a ranged attack.

 

  The problem isn't knockback.  The problem is a meta in which every form of crowd control is considered either useless, or a hinderance. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

QUIT BULLYING ENERGY BLASTERS Y'ALL

 

/jranger

 

 

 

🙂

[Aurora_Girl]

I'm just curious as to how far is "too far" for y'all's lazy asses to move to kill things. 10 yards? 5? 🧐😛

Edited December 16, 2021 by Aurora_Girl

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Aurora_Girl said:

I'm just curious as to how far is "too far" for y'all's lazy asses to move to kill things. 10 yards? 5?

 

What can I say, man? My damage output is more important to me than your joy at seeing the baddies gettin tossed around the battlefield. As the reverse is obviously true.

[Aurora_Girl]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

What can I say, man? My damage output is more important to me than your joy at seeing the baddies gettin tossed around the battlefield. As the reverse is obviously true.

 

See now you're just starting a good natured pinball session old man. ❤️

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Scattering mobs to the 4 corners of the map is NOT a new playstyle.  Neither can you "adapt" to it unless you like hunting them down one by one to ST the things down.  Some of us do not have 3 extra powers to squeeze in Fold Space because a teammate has a fascination for watching enemies fly across the map.

You can adapt or complain, it doesn't make a difference.

[Luminara]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

You make that sound like a good thing. You think I enjoy sacrificing slots just to negate the secondary? Sure, it's great to have that choice, but it's not great to sacrifice other things to do so.

 

It is a good thing.  Refusing to accept that choices have consequences doesn't change that.  We make choices in everything we do, and we deal with the consequences.  Every character we create and play is an exercise in choice and balancing the effects of that choice.  One character might be AoE-oriented, another might be focused on single-target damage, another might be low damage, high mitigation, et cetera.  We're always trading one of something for one of something else.  Slotting KB->KD is trading slots for increased soft control, positioning and damage output over time (by keeping critters near your character, you can use your high damage melee attacks more readily).

 

Nothing costs nothing, not even in this game, and something for nothing is worth exactly what's paid for it.

 

18 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Your +Acc in Archery is literally not being hated on by anyone...like at all. Not once have I ever seen somebody on a team ask you not to use +Acc, heh. You are comparing a Firebird with a Pinto. Not a fair comparison.

 

It's also not benefitting me in any way after I hit double-digits in levels.  It's completely useless.  I get absolutely nothing from it after the starter levels, because it's obviated by basic slotting.  It's not high enough to allow me to skip Accuracy enhancements, and slotting Accuracy enhancements obviates the secondary effect, so ultimately, it's pointless and useless.  In contrast, KB, by itself, increases survivability, and can be converted to KD for further benefits (see paragraph above).  So while you can slot your KB powers to improve their secondary in some way, all I can do is accept that mine is an irrelevant number displayed on the power info panel.

 

-Recharge suffers from a similar issue.  If critters had a single attack, then small amounts of -Recharge would matter.  They don't.  They have multiple attacks, and -Recharge doesn't prevent them from using those other attacks.  And it can't be slotted to improve it in any way.  It can't delay those other attacks like KB and KD can.  It can't give me opportunities to leverage my own higher damage attacks like KD can.  Unless it's massive, and the character can survive the critter's attack chain before it cycles back around to the first power, it does absolutely nothing worthwhile or noticeable... and even that benefit is dependent on critters not being defeated before that first attack recharges.  If I'm two-shotting minions in 4 seconds, and downing lieutenants in 6 seconds, the value of my -Recharge is even lower, since it's only applicable for bosses and higher.  And, again, I still can't improve it in any way, it's just a tiny number that floats in the power info panel, mocking me.

 

Those are fair comparisons.  You can do something with your KB.  You can benefit from those conversion IOs.  Other sets don't have that option, and never will.

 

30 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Ummm, you are missing one key component. Theme, concept, it all matters in this game. Since Solarverse is indeed an Energy Blaster/Tank in my comics, Energy is the only choice for him. So it was either accept that it has KB, or don't create him at all.

 

You could've used custom-colored Rad blasts, Dark blasts or Fire blasts.  You could've made that character without the KB, and the only consequence would be a different name on the set.  You chose not to.  Choice, consequence.

 

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Again, you are comparing a Firebird to a Pinto. All other secondaries are beneficial to all teams. Nobody ever complained about Dark's -ToHit. Nobody ever has complained about -Recharge from Ice, nobody ever has complained about -Defense from Rad.

 

And Archery's +Acc isn't doing a thing for teammates.  It's not a PBAoE, it's not a buff to teammates, it's not a debuff on critters, it's not even making the Archery/* or */Archery character better.  But you missed the point.

 

If the HC team added a slot specifically for global KB reduction, but didn't add a slot for all other secondaries to benefit in some way, it would turn into the biggest shit show since the Nixon administration.  Like it or not, willing to admit it or not, slotting KB->KD changes the profile of a set significantly.  It allows for additional damage output.  It allows for better management of soft control.  It adds advantages.  If you give one set the ability to redefine itself and gain advantages, the same has to be done for all sets.  All of them.  Failure to do so would be catastrophic.  It would show favoritism toward one secondary effect and disregard for all others, and incite furor.

 

Being able to redefine the play style of KB-heavy sets with a single IO that doesn't even take up a slot in any power, allowing increased survivability, increased damage output, AND the extra slots to spend on additional special IOs (damage procs, Force Feedback +Rchg), and that not being applicable to everyone, would lead to riots.  You can't drop an unbalanced and unfair change like that without players going ape-shit.

 

That's the point, in case it still wasn't clear.  Not whether or not different secondaries are comparable in any way, but that granting one secondary a special global IO slot and not doing it for the rest of the secondaries would be very, very bad for the game's health and the wellness of the community.  And since it's a given that all secondaries can't be given a global IO slot which improves them, it's a guarantee of insane drama and strife.

 

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Not once has a leader of a team kicked a player off the team for having any of those. Which secondary affect has been given complete hell since day one of this game? Knock Back.

 

There isn't an iota of evidence that I can find anywhere that what you say is reflective of the real mindset of players in general.  None.  No threads with KB users holding hands and weeping en masse because they're kicked from teams or verbally abused for doing what they do.  No reports of abuse for using KB.  No screenshots or logs showing someone having been kicked, just... nothing.  You make it sound as though team leaders are hovering a finger over the kick command, and teammates are heaping vitriol on KB users, but there's nothing supporting that.

 

You haven't even posted about being kicked from a team or told off for using your attacks, only vague musing about KB users being hated.  It never happened to me, it never happened to my friends, the original forums weren't hammered with complaints from KB users, and these forums aren't rife with outrage over kicks for using KB, so where's the beef?  Seriously, where?  Is it under the pickle?  Did you drop it?  Did you knock it back too far and lose track of it?  If people are so averse to KB that they'll commonly, frequently, regularly or even occasionally denigrate KB users and throw them off of teams, why isn't there a mountain of evidence showing that?

 

Come on, man, no-one here hates you for using KB.  We love you.  We respect you.  We appreciate you.  And we're damn sure not going to stop feeling that because we have to press W for half a second.

 

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Again, check my history, I am fairly certain that I have not even touched on this subject in a year or better. I hardly think I am obsessing over anything.

 

I meant stop obsessing over Meteor appearing out of nowhere, rather than being precisely modeled after a real impact event, complete with sub-orbital trajectory and travel time.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, 0th Power said:

But it always hits (the ground). Plus that’s when it does the damage. 

 

If you think about it, it's a meteor when you summon it, and it's still a meteor as it's hurtling towards the surface; it doesn't become a meteorITE until it's passed through those Level 1 Hellions and hit the Earth proper.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

See now you're just starting a good natured pinball session old man. ❤️

 

Just tryin to get to the real root of the issue. People love what they decide to love and hate what they decide to hate. The damage loss caused by scattering spawns doesn't actually matter at all when you don't care about getting every last second shaved off your time but some folks still go all "lookit how that bitch eats her crackers" and I'm curious as to why.

 

I suspect it boils down to a case of "hey, it was fun for me to get these guys where I wanted them and you pissed on my fun."

Just as "hey, I love watching them fly and that's why I play this nrg/storm corruptor and quite frankly I'm sick of all yall bitchin about it and shunning me for it."

[A Cat]

16 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

I'm just curious as to how far is "too far" for y'all's lazy asses to move to kill things. 10 yards? 5? 🧐😛

Depends on if I have combat TP or not. 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Scattering mobs to the 4 corners of the map is NOT a new playstyle.  Neither can you "adapt" to it unless you like hunting them down one by one to ST the things down.  Some of us do not have 3 extra powers to squeeze in Fold Space because a teammate has a fascination for watching enemies fly across the map.

 

My understanding is that it's location-targeted, and that it has a comparatively massive area of effect, so it can be used behind or to the sides of spawns and knock them all in a chosen direction, such as directly toward the tank, or the wall, or into that dude you hate and would love to see eat a dirt sandwich.  If so, I'd think preventing the four corners scenario would be pretty easy.

[Luminara]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

but some folks still go all "lookit how that bitch eats her crackers"

 

I laughed so hard, I thought my lung had recollapsed again.  Jerk.  😁

[DoctorDitko]

KB. Is it annoying to certain types of characters? Yep!

Is it amazing fun and a really sweet way to keep the bad guys helpless? Yep!

Have I been having a literal blast on an SG team using KB for mitigation? Absolutely!

We always announce the KB focus when LFG, which is, I think, the real issue here. It's not anti-fun, it's a different kind of fun!

 

(Irrelevant aside: Do I enjoy being knocked back? Yep, again. It makes me feel like I'm in a superhero battle! C.f. The Thing vs. Hulk!)

 

Have your fun your way, but taking a tumble is not The End of the World, OMG!

 

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

It's only a meteor until it lands.  Then it's a meteorite.

 

And at that point is when it arrests the mobs.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

And at that point is when it arrests the mobs.

 

 

Ouch. You made breakfast stout go the wrong way an up into my nose.

[Wobegone]

My Scrappers were much happier when I decided - if my target gets knocked out of range, I'd just tab to the next closest and start swingin'.  I don't let it bother me anymore.  Besides, it's rarely a problem.  Most folks either hover above the crowd and knock them into the ground or use knockback strategically and knock strays toward the spawn.  Knockback and Knockdown are terrific mitigation as well.  

 

In the very rare occasion when my Scrappers are running around like headless chickens, I either take a detour away from the group if it's steamrolling or leave the team.  

 

I also don't have a problem using a slot for Knockback to Knockdown.  My characters who do are still super.  It's not a big deal (for me).  

[Techwright]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

And at that point is when it arrests the mobs.

How can it be called "arrest" when they're flying all over the room?  We need a better descriptive catch phrase...like Jackson Pollock.   The meteor Jackson Pollocked those mobs...all over the walls.