Yet another, another Sentinel improvement thought...

[Errants]

1) Opportunity grants BOTH the Offensive and Defensive options.
2) Have Opportunity be triggered by EITHER of the T1 or T2 blasts.
3) Opportunity's bar depletes on activation, allowing you to build it WHILE under Opportunity.

Benefits:
"Perma"-Opportunity would help the damage gap for Sentinels VS other DPS classes.
Limited by 30sec duration of Opportunity - need to keep fighting to keep it up.

Not as binary as PermaDom, and accessible to most/all players/builds, as it is more a playstyle goal/requirement vs a build requirement.

Opens build choice, as you don't need both T1/2, or need to choose one or the other for endgame builds.

Simplifies gameplay - There's not a choice anymore, or getting the "wrong" buff because your first attack missed and your second was queued.

Limitations:
Still shorter range and lower target cap vs Blasters.
Still only one Vulnerability target at a time per toon - Activating on a new target removes the old one if still up.

 

Concerns:

Active gameplay could potentially mean that you've a permanent +Dam, +EndRed, -DefTgt, -ResTgt buff at all times.

 

Thoughts?

[Underfyre]

I'll grant you that it's better than a lot of suggestions I've seen.

[Snarky]

Thoughts….

 

agreed, it is better

 

going to be another long cold winter

[GM Impervium]

Hey!

I realize this is a Sentinel-specific idea, but still, such threads do belong in the Suggestions sub-forum. Thank you.

(Also, this is a nice idea; I hope the Devs take it under consideration!)

[Errants]

3 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Hey!
I realize this is a Sentinel-specific idea, but still, such threads do belong in the Suggestions sub-forum. Thank you.
(Also, this is a nice idea; I hope the Devs take it under consideration!)

 

As I'd not been following the Sentinel improvement ideas, I tossed it in the AT forum first, as it kinda came out of nowhere, to see validity, or if someone else had already brought it up.

Thanks for moving it, especially considering the positive feedback.

[MTeague]

8 hours ago, Snarky said:

going to be another long cold winter

 

is there a groundhog's day effect to Sentinel suggestions that I missed?

[Rudra]

Nah. (S)he's just probably being snarky. 😁

[Snarky]

The suggestions box.  Where all good ideas go to die.  True in every universe.  There was actually an engineering write up to put a blast shield on the exhaust port of the Death Star.  The engineer was told to put it in the suggestions box.

[Rudra]

At least he fared better than the administrator overseeing the construction. He went to complain about the time table for construction, took a number at the complaint box, and hasn't been heard from since. 🤪

[Luminara]

On 3/12/2022 at 4:31 PM, Errants said:

2) Have Opportunity be triggered by EITHER of the T1 or T2 blasts.

 

Restricting Opportunity to those attacks was poor initial design.  Being forced to switch to one of the lowest damage attacks available at regular intervals is an unnecessary restriction on damage output for an archetype which is already operating under tightly controlled damage output.  The inherent needs to be separated from the starter attacks if it's to provide benefit for all players, at all levels.

[Zeraphia]

35 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Restricting Opportunity to those attacks was poor initial design.  Being forced to switch to one of the lowest damage attacks available at regular intervals is an unnecessary restriction on damage output for an archetype which is already operating under tightly controlled damage output.  The inherent needs to be separated from the starter attacks if it's to provide benefit for all players, at all levels.

I actually agree with this. Sentinels being limited to use those two powers kills a lot of their DPS rotations in many cases where frequently (Dominate with procs) another power "fills" the DPA->DPS gaps that you never end up using the T1/T2 that don't have good scaling anyways especially into late game. 

 

I will be honest though, I don't know of a perfect solution to please everyone with this without ruffling some feathers unfortunately.

[Errants]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Restricting Opportunity to those attacks was poor initial design.  Being forced to switch to one of the lowest damage attacks available at regular intervals is an unnecessary restriction on damage output for an archetype which is already operating under tightly controlled damage output.  The inherent needs to be separated from the starter attacks if it's to provide benefit for all players, at all levels.

 

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

I actually agree with this. Sentinels being limited to use those two powers kills a lot of their DPS rotations in many cases where frequently (Dominate with procs) another power "fills" the DPA->DPS gaps that you never end up using the T1/T2 that don't have good scaling anyways especially into late game. 

 

I will be honest though, I don't know of a perfect solution to please everyone with this without ruffling some feathers unfortunately.

While I agree with that, using T1/2 as the trigger means you've access to it from level 1, and it doesn't encroach on Dominators gameplay for having a separate Inherent clicky to utilize.

Also, Dominate, let alone procc'd Dominate, should not be balancing factors on the T1/2's. It is such an outlier that either Sentinels as a whole need to be brought up to that level... Or the alternate.

Again, this wasn't hard thought out on numbers, just a muse idea that smacked me, and I thought I'd kick out to see if it sticks.

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Errants said:

While I agree with that, using T1/2 as the trigger means you've access to it from level 1

 

Every other inherent was designed to be available at level 1 without restricting utility at level 50.  Marrying Opportunity to the starter attacks to ensure early availability isn't necessary.

 

4 hours ago, Errants said:

and it doesn't encroach on Dominators gameplay for having a separate Inherent clicky to utilize.

 

It doesn't matter if its activation method is similar to that of other archetypes.  No-one grumbles about Gauntlet and Critical Hits both being activated simply by attacking.  There are no outcries due to Fury and Defiance both increasing damage as the player uses his/her attacks more frequently.  People who play dominators aren't going to raise a ruckus if sentinels click an icon to activate their inherent.  We, the players, may be enthusiastically individual in our approach to play and rosters of characters, but we all share similar interests, a love for this game in particular, and want all archetypes to thrive.

 

And why would it have to be similar to Dominate, anyway?  There are numerous ways to define a trigger for an inherent.

 

4 hours ago, Errants said:

Also, Dominate, let alone procc'd Dominate, should not be balancing factors on the T1/2's.

 

As a player who doesn't use that power, it's not a concern from my perspective.  When I talk about removing the starter attacks from my tray and ignoring Opportunity entirely, it's not because I'm padding my attack chain with Dominate, it's because I've recognized that sentinel primaries encourage players to eschew the use of T1/T2 attacks entirely, which can be accomplished entirely within the primaries, without leaning on the *PPs.  My level 35 Fire/Rad sentinel doesn't use Flares or Fire Blast in her attack chain, and with Electric Fences as her first *PP selection, she's not leaning on that, or pool attacks, to pad out the chain, to provide one example.  That character has an attack chain developed from primary powers alone.  That's how I build all of my sentinels, because that's how the archetype was designed.

 

The design of the primaries directly conflicts with the design of the inherent by restricting its usefulness to the early game.  We don't need *PPs or pool attacks to bypass the starter attacks, simply having more powers is sufficient to obviate the inherent, and we acquire more powers natively, through the process of leveling up.  *PPs, even proc-bombed Dominate, are therefore irrelevant.

 

No other inherent is restricted to functioning only with the starter attacks.  Opportunity shouldn't be, either.

[Menelruin]

Well now I have a STUPID idea:

 

Opportunities aren't usually something you MAKE, they're something that HAPPENS, and that you take advantage of.  What if EVERY attack just has a % chance to trigger opportunity, similar to crits?   No meter, no activation, they just randomly pop up, and then it's up to the player and team to TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITY =P

[Uun]

On 3/12/2022 at 4:31 PM, Errants said:

1) Opportunity grants BOTH the Offensive and Defensive options.

I like this for the simple reason that I skipped the T1 on my Rad/Rad and therefore never receive the Offensive mode bonus. 

On 3/12/2022 at 4:31 PM, Errants said:

2) Have Opportunity be triggered by EITHER of the T1 or T2 blasts.

It currently works like this. What about having a separate button ala Domination? This would allow you to use a T1/T2 attack when the meter is full without triggering Vulnerability. I frequently face foes with just a sliver of health but don't want to use the T2 blast on them as that would waste Vulnerability.

[aethereal]

@Snarky is right that there is zero sign that the devs ever really take detailed proposals from the Suggestions board and use them as a guideline for implementation.  I think the most you can hope for is that they maybe pay some attention to the general idea that, say, you feel that this thing needs fixing, or maybe like very small isolated suggestions, like "a badge for this."  We now have years of experience and like five or so major pages/issues pushed by the HC team, and I'm pretty sure that not a single major change looks substantially like anything proposed on the suggestion board.

 

Also, for whatever it's worth, Powerhouse claimed the last time that he talked about this that he didn't want Sentinels to have feast-or-famine.  Now, that was years ago at this point, who knows, maybe he's changed his mind.  But it sounded a lot like he wanted not to up-power or fix Opportunity, but fundamentally get rid of it.

[Errants]

12 hours ago, Uun said:

It currently works like this. What about having a separate button ala Domination? This would allow you to use a T1/T2 attack when the meter is full without triggering Vulnerability. I frequently face foes with just a sliver of health but don't want to use the T2 blast on them as that would waste Vulnerability.

All three of the line items were meant to be taken as a whole. I'm aware that currently the EndRed for caster and -Res on the target happen from either, but you only get either the Offensive or Defensive buffs - I offer you get both, and either of the two attacks (or both, if so inclined) would work to utilize it.

 

16 hours ago, Luminara said:

Every other inherent was designed to be available at level 1 without restricting utility at level 50.  Marrying Opportunity to the starter attacks to ensure early availability isn't necessary.

 

It doesn't matter if its activation method is similar to that of other archetypes.  No-one grumbles about Gauntlet and Critical Hits both being activated simply by attacking.  There are no outcries due to Fury and Defiance both increasing damage as the player uses his/her attacks more frequently.  People who play dominators aren't going to raise a ruckus if sentinels click an icon to activate their inherent.  We, the players, may be enthusiastically individual in our approach to play and rosters of characters, but we all share similar interests, a love for this game in particular, and want all archetypes to thrive.

 

And why would it have to be similar to Dominate, anyway?  There are numerous ways to define a trigger for an inherent.

 

As a player who doesn't use that power, it's not a concern from my perspective.  When I talk about removing the starter attacks from my tray and ignoring Opportunity entirely, it's not because I'm padding my attack chain with Dominate, it's because I've recognized that sentinel primaries encourage players to eschew the use of T1/T2 attacks entirely, which can be accomplished entirely within the primaries, without leaning on the *PPs.  My level 35 Fire/Rad sentinel doesn't use Flares or Fire Blast in her attack chain, and with Electric Fences as her first *PP selection, she's not leaning on that, or pool attacks, to pad out the chain, to provide one example.  That character has an attack chain developed from primary powers alone.  That's how I build all of my sentinels, because that's how the archetype was designed.

 

The design of the primaries directly conflicts with the design of the inherent by restricting its usefulness to the early game.  We don't need *PPs or pool attacks to bypass the starter attacks, simply having more powers is sufficient to obviate the inherent, and we acquire more powers natively, through the process of leveling up.  *PPs, even proc-bombed Dominate, are therefore irrelevant.

 

No other inherent is restricted to functioning only with the starter attacks.  Opportunity shouldn't be, either.

 

Fair point - Could make it a separate, auto-hit clicky, no worries about missing it and waiting for recharge?

Speaking of recharge - Are these builds where you've removed the T1/2 from your tray using just SO's to accomplish a constant attack chain? Because, while we're clearly beyond it at the top end, the base layer of the game is still balanced around SO slotting.

Again, I tossed this out, half baked, into the Sentinel forum for feedback. It's been bumped to the box of doom, but at least I've gotten feedback. 

[oldskool]

On 3/12/2022 at 4:31 PM, Errants said:

Concerns:

Active gameplay could potentially mean that you've a permanent +Dam, +EndRed, -DefTgt, -ResTgt buff at all times.

 

This really isn't a concern at all. 

Given that the AT has a ranged damage scale of 0.95 it is reliant on other sources to close the gap. As things stand right now, the min-max approach of Opportunity uptime is to shoot (pun intended) for 50%. [Edit: Caveat, no one actually advocates 50% uptime as a min-max method of Sentinel build design. I should have worded this more in the realm that *if* you wanted to maximize the potential the best uptime you can achieve is around 50%.]

In both testing this, and running numbers, I tend to get about +3~ DPS from Offensive Opportunity in a build -> spend playstyle as it is. Note, this is *not* something where procced Dominate is involved as I typically do not use it. 

Er go, if Offensive Opportunity is yielding me something in the ballpark of just 3-5 extra DPS at a 50% uptime, then a 100% uptime of the effect is still a minimal boost. I know some may not believe this, but Sentinels can achieve DPS totals in the multi-hundreds. It requires very specific building and play, but the possibility exists. This is not to say that it meets or exceeds other DPS ATs but it isn't quite the dumpster fire it is made out to be. Anyway, my point here is that Offensive Opportunity, such as it is, offers me somewhere in the 0.012% DPS increase vs not using it. This ties a bit into what @Luminara was going with on how a Sentinel can completely ignore Opportunity in its current state. 

In other words, don't feel a need to hold back on suggestions to benefit the AT with Opportunity uptime. As it stands, the benefits are comically small when executing a perfect rotation under perfect conditions. Even then, the largest benefit of the effect is limited to one target making any big game hunting the sole area the inherent shines. No suggestion on 100% uptime of Opportunity, with a single target limitation, is ever going to encroach on the role of a Blaster, Corruptor, some Defenders, Claws Scrappers, Crab Spiders, some Bane Spiders, some Masterminds, or even some Controllers. 

Go nuts with the suggestions.

Edited March 15, 2022 by oldskool

[ironjoe]

My wish list:

 

- Sentinel Inherent: Make 2 Tray Powers for defensive and offensive opportunity with a quick recharge for both but exclusive to each other for being active. Double the -Def -Res values and allow to stack with other Sentinels.

- Change base damage scales from 0.950/0.950 to 1.050/1.050 for small buff.

- Bump armor value scales to Stalker level.

[Luminara]

14 hours ago, Errants said:

Speaking of recharge - Are these builds where you've removed the T1/2 from your tray using just SO's to accomplish a constant attack chain? Because, while we're clearly beyond it at the top end, the base layer of the game is still balanced around SO slotting.

 

Enhancement categorization is irrelevant in this context.  There are 9 powers in every primary, and 6 of those powers are not T1, T2 or T9 (which has a sufficiently long recharge time to prohibit working it into a repetitive attack chain).  Most secondary power sets include at least one power which can be cycled into an attack chain, if not as an attack, then as damage mitigation.  There are also pool attacks (Arcane Bolt deals more damage than half of the sentinel T2 primary attacks, plus has that Arcane Power proc thing going on now (which offers higher damage output over time, and is not tied to recharge times, so it's of even higher value for SO-only builds)) and *PP powers which can be used in attack chains.  There's no code in the game, not a single line, which reduces the number of powers available if SOs are used, nor which restricts us to only using primary powers when using SOs.  With IO sets, we can whittle down our attack chains to only the most powerful or utilitarian attacks, but that's really just a reduction in complexity and focus on something specific, such as maximal damage output or archetype hybridization (playing a character as though it were a different archetype.  examples: deftroller, scrapfender).  Anyone can build a full attack chain, without T1/T2 attacks, using only SOs.  That is a guarantee built into the game itself, because, as you noted, it is balanced around SOs.  That SO-limited attack chain will be more complex, such as 1-2-3-1-4-2-5-repeat instead of 1-2-3-4, but it will still be perfectly viable, and it will not have to lean on the T1/T2 to be seamless.

That's why I refer to the T1/T2 attacks as starter attacks.  That's exactly what they are.  They're training wheels, designed to get us through the low levels and teach us how our attacks work, what recharge time is, what secondary effects are, et cetera.  Sometimes we continue to use them, for thematic reasons, for the secondary effects, for fun, but they're optional once we're out of the easy mode levels.  The game practically dumps better powers into our laps, hands us what we need to build attack chains without T1/T2 powers, even if all SOs are the only enhancement option available.

[biostem]

What if, in addition to reducing their damage resistance, Opportunity was also a debuff applied by both/either the 1st or 2nd attacks, which restored a little health and endurance to anyone that struck the target?  Make it a persistent effect that benefits the ENTIRE team with each attack, instead of having the "fill the bar" mechanic.  That, or make it a click power like Domination, so you can use it when you want.

Edited March 15, 2022 by biostem

[Zepp]

I like this proposal, I think I've suggested something similar a couple of times. The difference with my proposal was that I argued that any single-target attack from the primary could trigger it and I hadn't added the fill-while-in-use provision.

That being said, I prefer to have it triggered by an attack rather than adding another button to click. It makes gameplay smooth and easy to administer.

As per the idea to spread the personal opportunity benefits to the team, I think it is a reasonable idea, but I don't think it is necessarily the best option.

[Wavicle]

Sounds good to me.

I ALSO think Sentinel Aim should be turned into Build Up, but the OP's suggestions are good.

[Naraka]

I'm pretty sure I made at least part of this suggestion before (the rolling the Opportunities together).

 

Personally speaking, I prefer ideas that give a tangible change in how an AT plays compared to its peers.  Like how Stalker feels different from Scrapper due to its mechanics or how a Brute is different from a Tanker due to fury and the difference in AoE range.

 

I think a similar difference between Blaster, Corrupter, Defender and Sentinel should exist within the blast sets dynamics. Build that into the ATs then let the opportunity mechanic be extra flavoring on top that you can take or leave if you choose.

[biostem]

30 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Personally speaking, I prefer ideas that give a tangible change in how an AT plays compared to its peers.

If "Opportunity" affected all the sentinel's primary powers in some way, like scrapper crits or tankers taunt effect, I think it would better define the AT.  It'd be cool, IMO, if a Sentinel "tagging" an enemy with their attacks had some benefit to the rest of the team..