PVP or where on the doll did the PvPers touch you

[The_Warpact]

Ok there's a thread going on in suggestions about a pvp/pve zone event. I see that it is getting the usual responses "I don't pvp" or "thats why I play CoH because there is no zone pvp", etc.

Now regardless of the underlying question of pvp, there is some well thought out ideas on how this could occur, and there has been some contributions that make it make more sense or questions regarding how it would work.

BUT, there is some that its straight up "thumbs down " on ideas even if they are good to one that suggested "PvPers would intentionally try to cause people to fail the event".

 

Ok, that's some irrational kind of thinking. I mean seriously are people that frightened of pvp that they would rather dismiss it without any kind of discourse or so paranoid that the PvPers are lurking in the background ready to strike???

Not too mention the #1 thing its in the Suggestions section which means it isn't going anywhere, it won't be implemented, and its just a conversation piece. But, true to form and I don't want to touch upon any real life things but, you definitely see people freaking out, hating something, or being totally dismissive on a subject because of some emotional knee jerk response. 

 

I mean hell you could say there's a cadre of players out there just waiting to taunt a GM into a drone so people will fail it or knowingly mess people up on the ski course. Sorry thats just paranoid, as a person who used to pvp I can name one time in all those years that someone intentionally did something in pvp that was a dick move.

Compared to the multiple times some ass droned a GM in Atlas or Sharkhead for example. 

 

I cannot fathom how a game can cause people to have such paranoia or anxiety. In addition to that how can you not have the same ill effects during PVE? You can fail that, you can get kicked off a team, have arguments, get screamed at, etc, etc yet pvp puts you into panic mode???

 

I just don't get it, you would rather be an ass, snarky, and generally rude when someone suggests an idea but, YOU don't like it when pvp happens because you might get attacked in a game.

Strangely, enough I don't think the imaginary "evil PvPers " are the issue.

 

 

P.S.

While some might not enjoy it because its just not their cup of tea then good on you. I don't do alot of things in this game so I can understand that type of thinking.

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, The_Warpact said:

 

 

I just don't get it, you would rather be an ass, snarky, and generally rude

 

Sigh.  They knows me so well....

 

Honestly though I do not PvP.  You can pick your reason from the menu above.  None were 'wrong'  

 

A little backstory however.  I started playing games back in the mists of time with sticks, dice, and cards.  Watch the sticks.  That's PvP!  Then i graduated to boardgames.  A few months ago someone invented computers and such.  I enjoyed the dungeon crawlers etc.  Not so much the Tekken and the like.  I found that tactical and strategic understanding were worth garbage versus luck, knowing the exploits, and memorizing one arcane attack chain per game.  

 

When i found CoH some weeks ago I landed Redside on Liberty.  (I thought it was crowded coming from console gaming.)  PvP in CoH operates NOTHING like PvE.  Read above paragraph for "luck, exploits, and knowing one attack chain"  Add to this the fact that PvP badges are needed for accolades and a certain resentment set in.  As I moved to busier servers achieving these badges on alts was a process in dodging griefers in PvP zones.

 

Some are born to be an ass, snarky, and generally rude, some achieve being an ass, snarky, and generally rude and some have being an ass, snarky, and generally rude thrust upon them. I felt like being forced into PvP zones for PvE badges was a bit of a shit game decision from a Dev standpoint.  ymmv

 

You want to PvP.  Join me in a nice game of chess.  Or....we can play "sticks"

[The_Warpact]

@Snarky

I get you on a few points.

I agree having badges in pvp zones is stupid, if they were "special " badges then risk vs reward applies.

In addition I get the differences in playing pvp vs pve on how your toon isn't the same.

 

I will disagree with you on one point, they aren't griefers they are playing pvp in a pvp zone.

 

I don’t pvp anymore btw, just something I thought of while reading that thread in suggestions. 

[Apparition]

If people want to PvP, go for it.  But IMO it's a bad idea to mix both PvE and PvP.  It was a bad idea in issue 6, it would be a bad idea now.  No, people killing you in a PvP zone isn't griefing... they're PvPing.  So I just avoid those zones entirely.  I'd also avoid what was discussed entirely.

 

Here's the deal, not that it's anyone's business.  I was born both physically disabled and a dwarf.  Between the two, I was bullied mercilessly in school, especially in middle and high schools.  It reached a point where I was placed in a mental hospital at age eighteen for suicidal ideation.  It took years of therapy and self-reflection, but I eventually got over that.  But every day remains a challenge for me.  Some days I can barely get out of bed in the morning.  So I play video games to relax and take my mind off of things.  I don't mind challenging myself in PvE content, but competing against other players?  Nope. Never going to happen.  I was told when I was younger that there was a chance that I wouldn't live to see 40.  I'm 45 now thankfully, but my physical disabilities have been slowly getting worse as I age.  So I'm going to play to relax while I can.  For those who like to compete?  Have at it.

 

 

[ForeverLaxx]

I can't remember what game it was I was playing at the time, but I found people blaming PvP for nerfs to their game when it didn't even have PvP. No, I'm not kidding -- the mere existence of PvP in other games meant that any nerf to their game was caused by it.

 

Some people are just going to hate PvP no matter what form it's in and no matter what game it's in. As someone who plays both PvE and PvP (though admittedly, I haven't touched PvP in CoH since shutdown), I've found way more toxic players, with higher levels of aggression, in the "high end/progression PvE" spectrum than I ever have in a PvP setting. Some of those people who believe themselves to be PvE Gods are downright deplorable in how they address anyone who is doing worse (or better!) than they are when it comes to DPS meters and any other measurable metric in an MMO. The only time I've had a comparable experience to that in a PvP setting was when I beat the guild leader of a low-level PvP guild with my character who wasn't fully geared out yet, but his was. I got kicked from that guild, and it only made me laugh.

 

Interestingly, I've also had more experiences with PvE players talking down about me as a player because I dare to play the game on Non-Set IOs while leveling, handling endurance issues with my Dark Armor/Stone Melee Tanker just fine or pointing out that my Titan/Dark Scrapper on Live didn't have sets and didn't suffer much from what is apparently an "unbearable amount" of endurance drain. The concept of moving a tad slower to recover between spawns is a foreign concept to people, and I get attacked fairly frequently when I mention how I play in the global channels and my suggestions for endurance management. To them, the very idea of not being at 100% HP and Endurance at all times means there's a problem, I guess, but now I'm just on a tangent.

 

I guess my point is that some people are just opinionated and aggressive about it and I find most of those people are in PvE. The people who taunt others in PvP, in my experience, almost always do it as response to someone getting mad at them first. YMMV of course, but I've been in "that world" for over 20 years and that's just my personal experience spread across multiple games and genres over the decades.

 

That said, I will say that mixing PvE and PvP will always be a mistake.

[Glacier Peak]

 

 

About 40 people have signed up for this player organized event in June. There are about 5 newish players trying out PvP in this organized arena format. When the league was drafted, everyone was welcome and put on a team. There are also weekly pick up matches on Tuesdays on Indomitable. There is a Homecoming PvP Discord and lots of helpful people interested in growing the community on Homecoming. 

[cranebump]

There are zones for PvP. Not sure why we need to proliferate them to the PvE area. I recall playing Champions OL, and seeing that stupid rocket thing embedded in the central area of Millienim City, slays with a pair of people running around and around it. For some reason, it was always an eye-roller for me.

 

That said, Hero vs Villain teams might be interesting to me, if the ATs were locked by ethos the way they used to be. Everything is such a hodgepodge now, it makes little difference. On the question at hand, though: doesn’t seem like a popular idea. I’m not sure what is gained by it. Not sure anything is lost, either, Save having to dodge it when it happens, as I would not be participating.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

or so paranoid that the PvPers are lurking in the background ready to strike???

 

Is it paranoia when there's been a perpetual history of griefing related to PvP in general?

 

6 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

as a person who used to pvp I can name one time in all those years that someone intentionally did something in pvp that was a dick move.

 

I remember it as a constant for the entirety of my PvP time back on live. Maybe Pinnacle just had more because we were drunk.

 

I'm fine with any PvP changes the PvPers want to make in PvP zones. It doesn't affect me at all. Keep it the hell out of PvE zones. Full stop. No discussion. Just no. Got more than enough real life PvP going on and I will not have my game time sullied by that shit.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Is it paranoia when there's been a perpetual history of griefing related to PvP in general?

 

It could be paranoia if you think there's a perpetual history of griefing related to pvp in general.

Usually when people say something like this they actually mean something very specific, typically along the lines of "mean pvper kepts me from getting a badge" or "toxic pvper insulted me in chat and I'll be damned if someone is going to force me to use ignore."

Would love to hear otherwise though!  (pulls up comfy chair)

[The_Warpact]

@Ignatz the Insane

 

Sorry partner your looking way too much into it. I didn't mean anything as far as real mental issues or gaslight (which I didn't even know the definition of it until today).

 

I for one am not talking about a select few who have actual conditions it wasn't what I was trying to point out. Just the general reaction that was being conveyed over there on that thread.

Which to me was amusing because why downvote something and then not explain why or think that's there's intentional malice from an unknown amount of people like a conspiracy. 

My apologies if I didn't express myself thoroughly its the internet.

 

28 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Is it paranoia when there's been a perpetual history of griefing related to PvP in general?

 

 

I remember it as a constant for the entirety of my PvP time back on live. Maybe Pinnacle just had more because we were drunk.

Strangely enough Bill it was on that server that it happened. Liquid courage(stupidity) from Pinn.

[El D]

I think the core of the issue stems from how CoH was designed - as a cooperative game. From the get-go, the point of CoH as a MMO was teaming and working together, with the main (and for a time, only) content being PvE. Even after PvP was introduced the main focus was still 'sharing a common goal' rather than any real push to focus on player vs player. Blueside teams up to save the city, Redside teams up to do villain things, Goldside... gets buried under excessive ambushes. RWZ pushed co-op, then the iTrials did it, and then Dark Astoria did it again. It certainly doesn't help that PvP as a mechanic was just tacked on, any early momentum it had with base raids got ran into the ground, or that as a concept it runs pretty much counter to CoX's design philosophy. It's not like WoW where the player is joining a pre-defined faction whose long-established conflict is baked into the nature of the game - in CoX, 'heroes vs villains' was always primarily a PvE story-thing, rather than a core gameplay ideal. Sure, players could fight each other in certain zones or in the Arena, but 'Heroes Vs Villains' wasn't the point like 'Alliance Vs The Hoard' was.

 

This framework severely limited CoX's possible PvP population and retaining the limited PvP population CoX did get was pretty seriously hobbled by PvP being delt a number of intense rebalancing updates (which, if I remember right, was basically seen as its own variant-Ehancement Diversification aimed directly at the PvP community's favorite part of the game). Also, it's not remotely the PvP crowd's fault that that kind of gameplay has never been CoX's focus, nor that the Live Devs attempted to incentivize that content by attaching special badges to it that just led to folks who never wanted to PvP feeling like they have to 'suffer through it' to get the few things they wanted... but when it comes to new 'zone-wide PvP' events? Given just how little of the game revolves around PvP and how most players don't ever touch it even with the promise of said rewards, it just doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

PvP in CoX has always been a choice - one that works best preferably built by the community. Organizing big contests, like the Last Man Standing challenges, are fantastic and fun events but they're all also specifically 'join in please!' player/dev organized things within the existing PvP structure. Not moved into PvE content zones that have never hosted or are purposed for it where the only option for those who don't want it is to leave. That's why the Live Devs kept PvP to specific zones and Arena matches - it's always been an opt-in bonus feature rather than an opt-out requirement. Having it effectively 'take over' a non-PvP zone, regardless of how interesting the set-up might be, is just going to tick off the non-PvPers who were doing the content there (which would more than likely be most everyone in the zone). Keep in-mind, I enjoy PvP - I'll run through Warburg or RV with friends, and readily hop into Arena matches. I even joined in some of the community events back on Live, but it was always at my own choice to go there and do that, rather than PvP coming and finding me when I was doing something else.

 

All that said, PvPers as a community do prompt a lot of not-always-reasonable knee-jerk reactions. A large amount of which seems to be lingering resentment from griefing back in the Live days, which, while it did happen (a fact that was not aided by the attitudes of certain aspects of Live CoX, like the PWNZ sub-forum <.<)... holding a grudge against people who may not even play the game anymore and letting that color expectations seems like a bit much. That doesn't mean there isn't some girefing still here on Homecoming when it comes to PvP but it's not nearly like it could sometimes get back in the old days. I just figure... It's been a decade. Whatever issues I had with some parts of CoX's old PvP community, they got sunsetted with the Live game. I'd be happy with more, improved PvP content - just so long as it's kept as PvP content. xD

Edited May 29, 2022 by El D

[Bill Z Bubba]

26 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It could be paranoia if you think there's a perpetual history of griefing related to pvp in general.

Usually when people say something like this they actually mean something very specific, typically along the lines of "mean pvper kepts me from getting a badge" or "toxic pvper insulted me in chat and I'll be damned if someone is going to force me to use ignore."

Would love to hear otherwise though!  (pulls up comfy chair)

 

Nope. Not in my case. I use ignore in game for racists and channel spammers. GoldenGirl isn't around so I don't need to use ignore here on the forums. I spent my time in the PvP zones for PvP and have never been a badger. Nice try, but in my case, you're way off the mark.

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

as a person who used to pvp I can name one time in all those years that someone intentionally did something in pvp that was a dick move.

 

Was it teleporting players into confined locations with no way out, and leaving them there instead of, you know, fighting them (Cryptic had to add openings to those lookout towers because of that)?  Or spawn camping (Cryptic had to add a lot of extra drones and change some of the map geometry to give players a chance to leave their spawn points)?  Or harassing an individual until the person left or logged out (Cryptic changed the bounty system to combat that, and it still didn't prevent it)?  Or that dude who acted like a raging prick to everyone, then pretended to be doing "research"?

These things happened.  And they made bad first impressions.  First impressions define perspectives, and this isn't a movie, there's no time travel or memory wipe to give people the opportunity to experience a second first impression.  We might not have an overabundance of assholes in PvP now, but now isn't when the first impression was made for most of the veteran players, it was fifteen years ago.

 

For my part, to address your overall query, I find the entire implementation of PvP in Co* to be pathetic.  The zone maps are too big, too wide open, there are no tactical or strategic elements to them.  There are no objectives, nothing to escort from point A to point B, nothing to defend, nothing to capture, nothing to construct or destroy, and the one potential option which could have served all of those purposes, base raids, turned out to be an elephant cock up the ass (oh, you spent three months collecting prestige and building this base?  it's all gone, loser).  There's no matchmaking system in zones, nothing to balance one side against the other except the power changes and global buffs when moving from PvE to PvP.  There's no incentive to participate.  None.  There never was, not even PvP IO recipes.  There's nothing PvP about PvP in Co*, beyond "fight other players", and that's not because it's distilled to the base essence of PvP, it's because it's uninspired and badly implemented.

 

And shoe-horning it into a PvE zone isn't going to magically make it interesting, much less enjoyable, because it's still the same second-rate shit compared to anything else out there, in other games and in this one.  Scanner/paper missions are more engaging than Co* PvP.  Christ, we were supposed to have epic, furious comic book battles, and we ended up with stalkers or blasters ganking badgers, two tanks or brutes wailing on each other for seven hours, base raids designed specifically to extend subscriptions instead of entice players, a few zones with some PvE objectives we're supposed to pretend to be PvP-related, and us wandering around a three cubic mile area in search of a bounty which was invisible and in constant motion.  Bo-fucking-ring.  I'd rather watch paint dry.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Was it teleporting players into confined locations with no way out, and leaving them there instead of, you know, fighting them (Cryptic had to add openings to those lookout towers because of that)?  Or spawn camping (Cryptic had to add a lot of extra drones and change some of the map geometry to give players a chance to leave their spawn points)?  Or harassing an individual until the person left or logged out (Cryptic changed the bounty system to combat that, and it still didn't prevent it)?  Or that dude who acted like a raging prick to everyone, then pretended to be doing "research"?

 

Were you also on Pinnacle? I remember all of that.

[lemming]

Might be a little terminology being mixed?

I've had plenty of times where to get a badge in the PvP zones, there would be a PvP trying to smack people.

And if you announce that you're going to run a team to get the AV badges in Recluse, there will be a few people wanting to disrupt that.

Sure, they're within their rights, but it's not like mutual fun is being had.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Were you also on Pinnacle? I remember all of that.

 

Yeah.  I was also on Liberty and Virtue, and stuff like that was happening in the PvP zones there, too.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

instead of common sense and logic

 

Well, now I am confused; common sense and logic are the REASONS I'm always pissed off.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

These things happened.  And they made bad first impressions.  First impressions define perspectives, and this isn't a movie, there's no time travel or memory wipe to give people the opportunity to experience a second first impression.  We might not have an overabundance of assholes in PvP now, but now isn't when the first impression was made for most of the veteran players, it was fifteen years ago.

 

My first impressions were arena, which was added in Issue 4. Prior to the introduction of zone pvp, I ran regularly scheduled kickball events that were well attended. We also had arena events on test, to allow cross server participation, as well as server vs. server battles which were problemtatic because there were so many people that wanted to take part. There were tournaments, leagues, etc. 

 

I did a ton of zone pvp as well. If your first impression is going to define your perspective--then you probably shouldn't pvp in any game. Because you're going to hit a learning curve and you're going to lose. And it's probably going to involve putting in some practice before it becomes enjoyable. Nonetheless I had a lot of good times just fooling around in the zones with friends. 

 

Is the implementation of pvp in this game good? no. Can it be fun? Absolutely, in some cases more so than games with arguably better systems. So what should be done about it?

Continued development, regardless of what the haters say because those people would probably continue playing this game indefinitely even if the dev team did nothing in terms of updates. And 9 out of 10 particle physicists agree that the most objective definition of bo-fucking-ring is playing the same static pve content over and over again, ad nauseam, for years.

That is worse than watching paint dry--except that nobody actually watches paint dry, they hang out on the forums instead.

 

 

[Darmian]

Well this has been a fascinating, though sadly NOT enlightening read.  Once again we're all going in the same groove.

 

Meh.

 

Change SC/BB/W'burg to PVE and have done with it.

 

RV remains the only PVP zone where PVP has a reason to even exist. That and the Arenas.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Darmian

[GM Crumpet]

Please keep on topic. All side topics have been removed.

[srmalloy]

49 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I did a ton of zone pvp as well. If your first impression is going to define your perspective--then you probably shouldn't pvp in any game. Because you're going to hit a learning curve and you're going to lose.

And there will be lots of opportunity for your first impression being something that just gets reinforced again and again. My experience with open-world PvP is that the vast majority of it is driven by the people whose only way to measure their "leet skillz" seems to be how fast their level-capped combat monster with BiS gear can gank characters fresh out of the starting area, and who run at the slightest chance of an even fight.

 

But PvP is inherently biased toward the people who do it. There is no 'learning curve' that will teach you how to overcome the fact that your character who just reached minimum level to enter a particular PvP zone is inescapably significantly inferior to the tricked-out max-level character exemp'ed down to the zone level who is crammed full of purple, ATO, and winter sets, who has spent several orders of magnitude more inf on their character than you could have even with a bottomless pocketbook, and has spent the time to learn the differences from PvE and where all the tricks and corner cases are. You can learn to minimize your inferiority, but skill will only get you so far -- Mario Andretti is never going to win a NASCAR race driving a Smart ForTwo.

[KaizenSoze]

I have played several PvE/PvP MMORPGs. Some were mostly PvP. Also, I have played my share of PvP FPS.

 

What I have found over the years is that a lot of PvPer, not all, do not want a challenging battle. They want to gank you through having the uber build of the moment, usually based on an exploit, or overwhelming numbers. Many are just in it for the lulz, again not all. But it does not take many of the gank crowd to ruin the entire PvP experience in a game.

 

For example, in one game with very open PvP, a large clan would sit outside a low-level city and gank any newbies that were trying to get PvE experience. There was no challenge here, just ganking.

 

Due to this I am completely burned out on PvP. PvP could completely disappear from CoX and I would not miss it.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

But PvP is inherently biased toward the people who do it. There is no 'learning curve' that will teach you how to overcome the fact that your character who just reached minimum level to enter a particular PvP zone is inescapably significantly inferior to the tricked-out max-level character exemp'ed down to the zone level who is crammed full of purple, ATO, and winter sets, who has spent several orders of magnitude more inf on their character than you could have even with a bottomless pocketbook, and has spent the time to learn the differences from PvE and where all the tricks and corner cases are. You can learn to minimize your inferiority, but skill will only get you so far -- Mario Andretti is never going to win a NASCAR race driving a Smart ForTwo.

 

I disagree. I think at this point in the evolution of the game getting geared is the least significant problem in the equation. Anyone can have multiple accounts with farmers, you can buy what you need on the market, and you can even get the accolades from the pvp vendor. The material requirement for entry has never been lower. Skill and knowledge are the biggest things, particularly working in the context of a team.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

For example, in one game with very open PvP, a large clan would sit outside a low-level city and gank any newbies that were trying to get PvE experience. There was no challenge here, just ganking.

 

Due to this I am completely burned out on PvP. PvP could completely disappear from CoX and I would not miss it.

 

This speaks to the frustration the OP voiced in his first post. Any discussion of pvp on these forums gets bogged down with anti-pvp sentiment, and when this sentiment is phrased in terms of actual gameplay experience it generally boils down to anecdotes about people getting ganked in some sort of zone pvp encounter. 

 

Imagine you went to a Winter Olympics. You stood in line for a certain event, say ski jump. And it turns out to be a shitfest. There were delays. The snow melted. The judges sucked. People wiped out. So you go home and say "the Winter Olympics suck." 

 

And you keep saying that, year after year. The Winter Olympics suck. In fact, I don't want Summer Olympics either. I don't want ANY Olympics. And then some other person says "Yeah I don't want them spending money on the Olympics. I want it to go towards something that I would enjoy."

 

That's a typical pvp discussion on these forums. And it was like that from day one.

[JasperStone]

It is the crap talking.(sorry to offend....gamer boi talk)

Ganking and cheap attacks.

and yes the dude who was doing "research" 

 

Just no interest. if it is for you I will certainly support something that works for you.