Reduce the durations of the most obnoxious debuffs in pve.

[Wavicle]

1 minute Smoke Grenade and 5 minute Vanguard Curse whatever it's called (I know you can buy a temp power to remove it, but come on, get real).

No debuff should be so long it crosses from challenge to annoyance.

[lemming]

Smoke grenade is easy to work against with a yellow inspiration, so I vote no on that.

 

Vanguard Curse, while super annoying, easy to prep for with the temp power, and five minutes is nothing compared to what it used to be.  (30 min iirc?)

Edited June 21, 2022 by lemming

[Lazarillo]

I like how, past level 25-ish, I think it is, you have to sit on your thumbs after every mob of Tsoo because your run speed is debuffed to the point of effective immobilization for the next minute or so.

 

Wait, no, not love.  What's the other thing?

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I like how, past level 25-ish, I think it is, you have to sit on your thumbs after every mob of Tsoo because your run speed is debuffed to the point of effective immobilization for the next minute or so.

 

You can't even resist it with slow resistance. The slow effect is tagged as Unresistable. I don't care what you think about enemy debuffs, there's no way that shouldn't get changed.

[Troo]

Quick question: How long do these last if a player uses an inspiration?

 

These are supposed to be "the most obnoxious debuffs in pve".

 

[Rudra]

The Tsoo slows and the Vanguard curse can't be countered with inspirations. Night Widow and Tarantula Mistress smoke bombs require a tier 2 yellow to counter in my experience.

 

I just press on despite the Tsoo slows since there is a bottom floor their slows. (It's just really low.) And I run to safe point if affected by smoke bombs until I can see again. Same with the Vanguard curse and the Carnie Masks. So they are definitely manageable. (I definitely would not mind the durations being lessened anyway.)

[Troo]

I'd agree with a 'upon enemy defeat the enemy debuffs are reduced or removed' but if they are alive, it is what it is.

 

If players fail to prioritize say a Sapper, the player gets sapped. Knowledge is really one of the only skills that is rewarded in CoX.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Troo

[Doomguide2005]

I tend to agree with Troo overall but design should be careful with overdoing unresistable and autohit effects as a substitute for 'challenge' as well.

[Uun]

11 hours ago, Vanden said:

You can't even resist it with slow resistance. The slow effect is tagged as Unresistable. I don't care what you think about enemy debuffs, there's no way that shouldn't get changed.

The player version of Siphon Speed is also unresistable, making it quite useful against AVs. I wouldn't want that changed.

[Herotu]

14 hours ago, Troo said:

Quick question: How long do these last if a player uses an inspiration?

 

These are supposed to be "the most obnoxious debuffs in pve".

 

Just because they're not particularly obnoxious, doesn't mean they're not the most obnoxious.

[Wavicle]

Using a yellow inspiration does not get rid of smoke grenade. It is very very easy to run yourself out of yellow inspirations in a mission with a lot of night widows in it. The Debuff should not be a minute long. That’s ridiculous.

[Placta]

Running Arachnos missions on my elec tanker, when I'd get Smoke Grenaded, I'd sit there running Lightning Field and alt-tab out for a few minutes. Come back, the widow was defeated, the debuff had worn off, and all was well. Real thrilling gameplay.

[Outrider_01]

Question:  If you nerf .01% of /Regen, everything in the game gets buff.

 

The lowest bar of the game drops 1 rung of the ladder, suddenly the negative and annoying factors are more tolerable as they go up a rung on the same scale.

 

• -perception isn't an issue
• knockback is actually enjoyed by your team
• -Sparky caps all resists on a blaster
  • How the f🤬ck he does it is beyond comprehension
• CuppaJo gets a fresh hot cup
• Positron stubs his toe in the dark
• Statesman steps on a Lego

 

How does it do that? 🤔

 

[Greycat]

Meh.

Don't really have an issue with smoke grenade. Curse of Weariness could be cut down, sure - but it should also be *introduced* and the player *told* that for a relatively few V-merits you can get the curse breaker to counter it. I don't think that's ever mentioned, and you have to know about earning V-merits, the Vanguard terminals, CoW itself, etc. to know you have a counter.  That's what should be addressed even more.  It'd be like having enhancements drop - but the tray's not visible, there's no notification you have them, and you have to go five menus deep to even see mention of them.

 

Malta's exceptionally long stun grenades were in there, as well.

 

Don't really have an issue with Tsoo slows - given all the +hyperrechargepermaeverything builds, something needs to deal with them. Usually my issue with them is the NPC goes zipping away at high speeds. The more irritating thing with the tsoo for me are their darts that just sit there DOTing you - not enough to worry about your health, ever, but interrupting mission items like clicking glowies.

[Psyonico]

I think the only change I'd make to CoW is make it so it doesn't persist through death.

[RikOz]

On 6/20/2022 at 7:01 PM, Troo said:

I'd agree with a 'upon enemy defeat the enemy debuffs are reduced or removed' but if they are alive, it is what it is

Illusions that persist after the Illusionist is defeated are definitely bogus. I just love having to stand 100 yards away from the hostage I'm trying to rescue, waiting five minutes for that damned Decoy Phantasm to despawn.

[RikOz]

On 6/21/2022 at 8:50 AM, Wavicle said:

Using a yellow inspiration does not get rid of smoke grenade. It is very very easy to run yourself out of yellow inspirations in a mission with a lot of night widows in it. The Debuff should not be a minute long. That’s ridiculous.

Same things with those ToHit debuffing CoT ghosts at low levels. Can't possibly carry enough yellows to counter it, particularly if the mission spawns heavy on ghosts.

[Akisan]

On 6/21/2022 at 1:28 PM, Psyonico said:

I think the only change I'd make to CoW is make it so it doesn't persist through death.

 

This.  OMG, this. 

IIRC, it's one of (if not the only) non-story related debuff that doesn't expire when you do.  A lot of the other truly game-changing debuffs can be mitigated to some extent, even if that extent is "die and then rez yourself". 

Side note - the other -50 End debuff (Dark Carnie Ringmistress' Mask of Vitation, 60s duration) also carries a -50% defense penalty, but at least it has the decency to not stick around when I (almost always) die to suddenly having no defense (and likely no resists if/when my toggles drop).

[Vanden]

In my experience it's pretty freaking iffy that you'll get enough Vanguard Merits to afford a curse breaker before the arc where you have to fight Vanguard Sword, and even then you better hope you don't take more than 5 CoWs before the end, because that's all you're getting unless you run a mothership raid.

 

4 hours ago, Akisan said:

Side note - the other -50 End debuff (Dark Carnie Ringmistress' Mask of Vitation, 60s duration) also carries a -50% defense penalty, but at least it has the decency to not stick around when I (almost always) die to suddenly having no defense (and likely no resists if/when my toggles drop).

 

Mask of Vitiation just dings your end bar, though, it doesn't reduce your max endurance like Curse of Weariness.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Vanden

[Rudra]

According to City of Data, Mask of Vitiation nukes your END, your recovery, and your defense. It may not nuke max endurance like Curse of Weariness, but that combined END drain and Recovery nuke still hurts.

 

Edit: It's manageable, just run away until it wears off and it doesn't take divine intervention to have the energy to blink any more, but it still hurts.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Rudra

[Akisan]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

Mask of Vitiation just dings your end bar, though, it doesn't reduce your max endurance like Curse of Weariness

 

Has that been changed recently, or do they have a different mask power?  I distinctly remember getting double hit by that debuff in a bank side-mission (they're not supposed to stack it, but a pair of them will sometimes cast simultaneously).  I also remember having to stand there, held and immob'd, at 0/13 endurance until they killed me (didn't take long, at -100% def), since there's no fighting back through that much -Max End.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

It's manageable, just run away until it wears off and it doesn't take divine intervention to have the energy to blink any more, but it still hurts.

 

It may be, but in this situation, death is the preferable outcome.  Debt is negligible, I have a damaging self-rez (Rise of the Phoenix), and it *usually* clears debuffs.  And while it hurts, Mask of Vitation isn't the enemy power I'm asking to be nerfed.  I'm saying that Nectanbo's Curse of Weariness shouldn't stick around through death, as no other crippling debuff is as persistant.  At that point, it's really just a Vanguard merit sink (for when you're running Vanguard missions of all things).

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

In my experience it's pretty freaking iffy that you'll get enough Vanguard Merits to afford a curse breaker before the arc where you have to fight Vanguard Sword, and even then you better hope you don't take more than 5 CoWs before the end, because that's all you're getting unless you run a mothership raid.

That's an arc I always wait to run until I hit 50.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Akisan said:

...since there's no fighting back through that much -Max End.

It's not going to help much, because almost no one even drops an Acc into the default slot, but isn't Brawl free of any End cost?

[arcane]

It’s a bit much I guess that you can get hit by a Malta stun grenade, and, before it wears off, your team can complete the mission; you can zone out; and then still have a chunk of time wandering around drunk outside. I swear some of those last minutes.

Edited June 24, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Akisan said:

Has that been changed recently, or do they have a different mask power?  I distinctly remember getting double hit by that debuff in a bank side-mission (they're not supposed to stack it, but a pair of them will sometimes cast simultaneously).  I also remember having to stand there, held and immob'd, at 0/13 endurance until they killed me (didn't take long, at -100% def), since there's no fighting back through that much -Max End.

The END drain stacks according to City of Data. The - regen, -recovery, and -DEF don't.