issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[Wavicle]

I've done some play testing now.

I don't really know how to run a quantifiable test for this. But I can say how it feels:

It feels like a further punishment for having gotten mezzed, which is what detoggling always felt like.

 

Does a Stalker take 5 seconds of no attacking or being hit to re-Hide? That length of time seems like it should be about the upper limit, if a suppression period absolutely must exist at all.

[Bopper]

32 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Does a Stalker take 5 seconds of no attacking or being hit to re-Hide? That length of time seems like it should be about the upper limit, if a suppression period absolutely must exist at all.

They take 8s to re-hide

[Wavicle]

Ok, well, at least it's not longer than that. I definitely think 5 would feel a lot better.

 

The most significant part of it for me is that it makes mez a Greater detriment for the sake of convenience, and with no way to work around it. If it was an Option at least you could choose to do it or not. If the choice is between having to retoggle and having mezzes effectively last longer on toons with offensive toggles, I'll take the former.

[Gorgar]

One problem I found with this was it did not look like there was any visual cue whether the toggles were working or not.  There's a big difference between hitting a boss with a ranged stun then moving into melee range with Oppressive Gloom on vs having Oppressive Gloom off.

 

I'd probably just turn this option off on most characters if it was available at the gull, but it would be a lot less annoying if I could tell when the power was functioning.  Exceptions might be characters with a lot of armor toggles + something offensive.  Convenience on them isn't really a good tradeoff for such a long recharge on squishies that tend to have one or two offensive toggles that they really depend on, though.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Gorgar said:

One problem I found with this was it did not look like there was any visual cue whether the toggles were working or not.  There's a big difference between hitting a boss with a ranged stun then moving into melee range with Oppressive Gloom on vs having Oppressive Gloom off.

 

I'd probably just turn this option off on most characters if it was available at the gull, but it would be a lot less annoying if I could tell when the power was functioning.  Exceptions might be characters with a lot of armor toggles + something offensive.  Convenience on them isn't really a good tradeoff for such a long recharge on squishies that tend to have one or two offensive toggles that they really depend on, though.

Yes... I haven't really been able to tell when toggles are being suppressed and when they're not. Granted, I've picked up a fair amount of mez resistance on my beta characters via their sets, but as something of a "dumbass," I've no idea how to tell if they're suppressed when I do get mezzed and when they come back to working. I'm not someone who keeps a constant eye on their combat log (and shit flies through there so fast I can't keep up with it all) or keeps power analyzers around. Some sort of more visual cue or something that makes it really obvious we're still under suppression would be amazing.

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The most significant part of it for me is that it makes mez a Greater detriment for the sake of convenience, and with no way to work around it. If it was an Option at least you could choose to do it or not. If the choice is between having to retoggle and having mezzes effectively last longer on toons with offensive toggles, I'll take the former.

@Powerhouse, we offer prayers and supplications so that these ideas don’t ruin Toggle Suppression/Suspension. If the timer can be decreased, many will rejoice, however, please do not pull this feature for the sake of our poor Kheldians that have suffered without this since Issue Two.

[AlwaysAPrice]

44 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

we offer prayers and supplications so that these ideas don’t ruin Toggle Suppression/Suspension. If the timer can be decreased, many will rejoice, however, please do not pull this feature for the sake of our poor Kheldians that have suffered without this since Issue Two.

 

I doubt they're linked in any way besides both concerning toggles, Suppression wasn't included with this thread until it started getting feedback in the general thread.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

@Powerhouse, we offer prayers and supplications so that these ideas don’t ruin Toggle Suppression/Suspension. If the timer can be decreased, many will rejoice, however, please do not pull this feature for the sake of our poor Kheldians that have suffered without this since Issue Two.

oh, I ONLY meant the Offensive Toggle suppression. Not the shapeshifting suppression. Those are two different features.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

oh, I ONLY meant the Offensive Toggle suppression. Not the shapeshifting suppression. Those are two different features.

Hopefully, you will go to Chicken Heaven.

[golstat2003]

9 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

@Powerhouse, we offer prayers and supplications so that these ideas don’t ruin Toggle Suppression/Suspension. If the timer can be decreased, many will rejoice, however, please do not pull this feature for the sake of our poor Kheldians that have suffered without this since Issue Two.

I would argue that if they can’t reduce it they SHOULD pull it until they have the code/tech to decrease the timer. I say this as someone who plays Kheldians regularly.

 

I’d rather HC stick to their guns of getting things done well before they release than fast. It’s what separates HC from some of the other servers that throw sphagetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

 

EDIT: And just saw the comment after yours that it’s two separate features. That’s cool.

Edited July 17, 2022 by golstat2003

[Myrmidon]

34 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I would argue that if they can’t reduce it they SHOULD pull it until they have the code/tech to decrease the timer. I say this as someone who plays Kheldians regularly.

 

I’d rather HC stick to their guns of getting things done well before they release than fast. It’s what separates HC from some of the other servers that throw sphagetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

 

EDIT: And just saw the comment after yours that it’s two separate features. That’s cool.

Kheldian toggle suppression is what we want more than the rest of this entire  patch, however, we are willing to entertain your theories.

[Troo]

10 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

@Powerhouse, we offer prayers and supplications so that these ideas don’t ruin Toggle Suppression/Suspension. If the timer can be decreased, many will rejoice, however, please do not pull this feature for the sake of our poor Kheldians that have suffered without this since Issue Two.

 

I hate testing.. I like this better. Should I offer a sacrifice as well or is that superfluous or gratuitous?

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

I hate testing.. I like this better. Should I offer a sacrifice as well or is that superfluous or gratuitous?

 More offerings tend to appease the gods, so do as you will, my horned headed friend.

[Stormwalker]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Kheldian toggle suppression is what we want more than the rest of this entire  patch, however, we are willing to entertain your theories.

We?  Is that the royal we?  Because I definitely want the sound-stacking fix more than this entire patch.  I want to be able to enjoy teaming!

 

Being able to display weapons on my character outside of combat is pretty nice, too.

 

That said, I do understand that the toggle suppression is a big thing for Kheld players (never played one myself) and that they really want it.

 

Perhaps if it's determined that it's working well for Kheldians, but needs more tweaking for everyone else, it could still be implemented for Khelds now and then re-introduced for everyone else later?

 

Though, honestly, as opposed as I am to implementing it without reducing the timer at least some, I won't be complaining that much even if it goes in as is, because of the other stuff I want so badly that is in this patch.  It would probably just mean I wouldn't play my Rad Defender anymore.

[SwitchFade]

17 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

@Powerhouse, we offer prayers and supplications so that these ideas don’t ruin Toggle Suppression/Suspension. If the timer can be decreased, many will rejoice, however, please do not pull this feature for the sake of our poor Kheldians that have suffered without this since Issue Two.

This.

 

Reduce to 4 seconds.

[Myrmidon]

10 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

This.

 

Reduce to 4 seconds.

Very well. 

 

 

@Powerhouse, grant us a four-second reprise from toggle drops, so that we can deal with the enemy easier. Just tell us what is required for the sacrifice and it will be so.

[Wavicle]

8 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

I would argue that if they can’t reduce it they SHOULD pull it until they have the code/tech to decrease the timer. I say this as someone who plays Kheldians regularly.

 

I’d rather HC stick to their guns of getting things done well before they release than fast. It’s what separates HC from some of the other servers that throw sphagetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

 

EDIT: And just saw the comment after yours that it’s two separate features. That’s cool.

 

I don't think it's a question of technology. I think it's a question of the devs being convinced that 8 seconds actually is too long.

[Stormwalker]

20 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

I don't think it's a question of technology. I think it's a question of the devs being convinced that 8 seconds actually is too long.

 

I think you're right, even though I think it is too long.

 

It's hard for me to make too strong of a statement because the only character I play who would really be affected by this is my Rad/Rad... so I have no idea how being without their toggles for 8 seconds impacts the performance of other sets.  What I do know is that with no toggles running, the life expectancy in combat of my Rad/Rad even solo is very short.  I've several times been shocked by just how fragile she is when her toggles drop.  Even having one toggle up - either Radiation Infection or Enervating Field - makes a huge difference in her survivability.  So going 8 seconds (plus however long I'm mezzed) without any of my toggles feels like a death sentence.

 

But I have no idea if it's like that for other sets with offensive toggles or not.  Rad is kind of a unique set.

[Marshal_General]

I have a rad/stone tank that has a toggle that tends to drop during the arena part of the SBB. Since I am a tank, I know I am not getting mezzed especially since I started watching when I noticed it happening. Maybe I do according to the server for a micro second, but never shows on my character. I shouldn't have to wait 8 seconds for one toggle to come back.

 

It should be 2 seconds per toggle after the first with a 8 second cap.

[Jacke]

10 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

I think you're right, even though I think it is too long.

 

It's hard for me to make too strong of a statement because the only character I play who would really be affected by this is my Rad/Rad... so I have no idea how being without their toggles for 8 seconds impacts the performance of other sets.  What I do know is that with no toggles running, the life expectancy in combat of my Rad/Rad even solo is very short.  I've several times been shocked by just how fragile she is when her toggles drop.  Even having one toggle up - either Radiation Infection or Enervating Field - makes a huge difference in her survivability.  So going 8 seconds (plus however long I'm mezzed) without any of my toggles feels like a death sentence.

 

But I have no idea if it's like that for other sets with offensive toggles or not.  Rad is kind of a unique set.

 

Like @Stormwalker, I have a Rad/Rad Defender.  I also have a Fire/Rad Controller that runs Choking Cloud and Hot Feet, as well Enervating Field and often Radiation Infection.

 

I don't pay 2.5million Inf/Hour for a Defensive Amp, so they get mezzed.  I have Rune of Protection to cut down on Breakfree usage.  Now this revision to Offensive Toggles will be a straight nerf.  8s after the mez without those toggles is just too long.

[Booper]

6 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

I have a rad/stone tank that has a toggle that tends to drop during the arena part of the SBB. Since I am a tank, I know I am not getting mezzed especially since I started watching when I noticed it happening. Maybe I do according to the server for a micro second, but never shows on my character. I shouldn't have to wait 8 seconds for one toggle to come back.

 

It should be 2 seconds per toggle after the first with a 8 second cap.

Can you post steps to replicate and post this in the Beta Bug Reports forum? If it is true that you weren't mezzed but suppression still happened, then it would be a bug that needs to be solved.

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

It should be 2 seconds per toggle after the first with a 8 second cap.

 

THIS. Please this.

[Number Six]

On 7/17/2022 at 4:13 AM, Myrmidon said:

@Powerhouse, we offer prayers and supplications so that these ideas don’t ruin Toggle Suppression/Suspension. If the timer can be decreased, many will rejoice, however, please do not pull this feature for the sake of our poor Kheldians that have suffered without this since Issue Two.

 

If it makes you feel any better, the Kheld/Granine toggle suspension and the 8s suppression when mezzed of offensive toggles are two completely separate things with different goals, different underlying tech, and are not at all connected by anything other than the reason they ended up sharing a feedback thread -- they both have "Toggle" in the name.

[WindDemon21]

On 7/16/2022 at 7:21 PM, Bopper said:

I see what you mean now. Technically that isn't suppression (like how it's being used in this thread). When you are held, the effects are being canceled. When the mez wears off it goes back to working.

Yeah, definitely always been in the boat that self-armor toggles shoudln't even "cancel"/ suppress when mezzed, they should still be working.

[brass_eagle]

4 hours ago, Booper said:

Can you post steps to replicate and post this in the Beta Bug Reports forum? If it is true that you weren't mezzed but suppression still happened, then it would be a bug that needs to be solved.

 

Offering conjecture here, I do recall a high (mag 12?) stun that sometimes hits as a death event for one of the bosses in the Roman Arena of Summer Block Buster. Lasts not very long if it does hit. But I don't have full recall of it.

 

Mag 12 would be enough to overcome the standard mez prot at the level.

Edited July 18, 2022 by brass_eagle
clarification