The Pretty Good AE Debate

[America's Angel]

 

Getting sick of these nerfs.

[Troo]

14 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

Getting sick of these nerfs.

 

Glad to see Widower have a sense of humor.

(as long as Moon is okay with it)

[Ukase]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:46 AM, luficia said:

 

Assumptions? You don't play the same content as I do. There's a serious problem grinding and not playing the game only to go try to do something like ITF and don't know what they are doing or because of the farm mentality is so high, they contribute nothing. I have to remove them.

This isn't a farming problem, it's a pug problem. 

[Ukase]

Wait - what was the title before? 

[ivanhedgehog]

25 minutes ago, Krimson said:

If we shout a lot they might revert it. 

If we buy him beer and BBQ he will almost certainly revert it. If not, it cant hurt to have good will in the future!

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

Glad to see Widower have a sense of humor.

(as long as Moon is okay with it)

 

well if i wake up tomorrow morning to find this has become The Mediocre AE Debate i might start to get disappointed 😛

[Ruin Mage]

26 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Wait - what was the title before? 

The Great AE Debate.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Sometimes complaining works!  But with great power comes great something or other.

 

[America's Angel]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

The only area I think they might have a point is PvP. I too am suspicious that the devs listen to a very specific slice of the PvP community over anyone else that might have an interest in PvP. But oh well, that’s on the devs. If they don’t want PvP to grow they can keep catering to an insular sub-community all they want.

 

Other than that, every other accusation of white knights or gatekeeping or whatever other meaningless buzzwords they like to throw at the wall… well they appear to be a bullshit scapegoats don’t they. Because the idea that guys like me have some sway over development… well that’s lizard people pizzagate talk right there.

 

Yeah, PvP changes tend to be done with PvPers in mind. One of the mistakes the live devs made was ignoring PvPers in favor of a phantom group of PvPers that "might exist one day if we just make XYZ changes...". This second group never materialised, but the changes the live devs introduced that put them first and PvPers second, led to a huge drop off in the number of actual PvPers in CoH. Fortunately, the Homecoming devs aren't repeating the same mistakes as the live devs.

 

And I think part of it is because the Homecoming devs, by their own admission, aren't PvPers, so they're happy to listen to PvPers when it comes to changes. This is why there's now free PvP accolades, free PvP level 50s, free PvP incarnates, a bunch of new PvP maps, etc. PvP is better now than it was at Homecoming launch. And that's because the devs took the initiative to ask PvPers what they wanted.

 

If it feels like there's some illuminati-esq cabal making PvP changes happen from the shadows...that's just because the PvP community is tiny and don't really post on the forums all that much. PvPers mostly just hang out and give feedback on Discord.

[LastHumanSoldier]

I just wanted to belong.
 

[Ironblade]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

Wait - what was the title before?

 

1 hour ago, Shadeknight said:

The Great AE Debate.

 

A few more days and it will be 'The Borderline Pathetic AE Debate'.

[Coyotedancer]

"Not Really Even an AE Debate Now That You Mention It"

[Aracknight]

I can't believe it's not an AE Debate.

[Nurvus]

11 hours ago, arcane said:

The only area I think they might have a point is PvP. I too am suspicious that the devs listen to a very specific slice of the PvP community over anyone else that might have an interest in PvP. But oh well, that’s on the devs. If they don’t want PvP to grow they can keep catering to an insular sub-community all they want.

 

My extremely tinfoil hat and not really serious conspiracy theory is this is the reason procs haven't been touched yet despite all of the talk of proc changes incoming. The PvP meta right now revolves entirely around procs and if that's changed it'll probably reshape the entire PvP landscape. 

 

[Ironblade]

I will see your cat with a foil hat and raise an additional foil hat.

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Ironblade

[UltraAlt]

17 hours ago, tidge said:

Please, can we all just give our likes and lock the thread so I know who won?

 

I clearly won the most thumbs down.

 

Move along, Citizen. Nothing new to see here.

[ZacKing]

15 hours ago, Troo said:

Glad to see Widower have a sense of humor.

 

The fact they think people expressing legit concerns over their changes funny speaks volumes.  I guess the "developers" just don't give a shit. 

[Ruin Mage]

It's a thread title change by a GM not a developer. Lighten up.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Shadeknight

[arcane]

15 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

Yeah, PvP changes tend to be done with PvPers in mind. One of the mistakes the live devs made was ignoring PvPers in favor of a phantom group of PvPers that "might exist one day if we just make XYZ changes...". This second group never materialised, but the changes the live devs introduced that put them first and PvPers second, led to a huge drop off in the number of actual PvPers in CoH. Fortunately, the Homecoming devs aren't repeating the same mistakes as the live devs.

You forgot the third group: people that were very active PvP’ers that were and still are alienated. Pretending we don’t exist doesn’t tend to be any less alienating.

 

I don’t believe a day is coming when other PvP’ers outside of your sub-community will be listened to, so I don’t believe I’ll be going back. So no worries. Just saying, you’re missing some of the finer details.

 

Yes, i13 was bad. It’s the second-most alienating thing to me about the current PvP meta. Nobody disagrees with you there.

Edited July 31, 2022 by arcane

[Bionic_Flea]

45 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

It's a thread title change by a GM not a developer. Lighten up.

 

And put some clothes on that Avatar, Zac!

[The_Warpact]

12 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

And put some clothes on that Avatar, Zac!

It's all hairy and....bulgy.😳

[Marbing]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:04 AM, MoonSheep said:

 

what a shame - an opportunity to introduce slight and minor change to begin re-balancing the game was rolled back as the devs were scared off by a shrieking mob of infants

 

edit: me defending my post 

 

What a way to start a topic. Bravo, sir... bravo!

[MoonSheep]

50 minutes ago, Marbing said:

What a way to start a topic. Bravo, sir... bravo!

 

why poke a wasp nest when you can take a running kick at it

 

[Marbing]

2 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

why poke a wasp nest when you can take a running kick at it

 

Oh man, that should be your signature!

[America's Angel]

10 hours ago, arcane said:

You forgot the third group: people that were very active PvP’ers that were and still are alienated. Pretending we don’t exist doesn’t tend to be any less alienating.

 

I don’t believe a day is coming when other PvP’ers outside of your sub-community will be listened to, so I don’t believe I’ll be going back. So no worries. Just saying, you’re missing some of the finer details.

 

Yes, i13 was bad. It’s the second-most alienating thing to me about the current PvP meta. Nobody disagrees with you there.

 

Actually, I was including lapsed PvPers in the "PvPers" group. We have plenty of them giving imput/feedback in the various discords. (And I can't imagine they'd be against free accolades/incarnates/level 50s/new pvp maps/etc for PvP.)

 

The reason it might feel like lapsed PvPers are being ignored is due to how many man hours are being spent on PvP. As I mentioned in my above post, the devs are not PvPers. Developing this game is their hobby, and they want to spend their spare time making cool PvE stuff. That's completely fine and valid. Every now and then they throw PvPers a bone, which is nice of them. But, it's always low hanging fruit / minimal time investment stuff. This means all we (as a playerbase) can realistically expect for PvP changes are quick wins and minor tweaks.

 

Now, the sort of PvP changes that would appeal to lapsed PvPers would not be quick wins or minor tweaks. Such changes would require a grand overhaul. This would be a huge time investment. The man hours for this just aren't there.

 

In an idea world we'd revert to Issue 12 PvP rules and rebalance a bazillion things so that it balances as well as live. (While our current PvP system is counter-intuitive and a huge barrier to entry for most, it is objectively more balanced that Issue 12. So to make Issue 12 work there'd need to be a tonne of rebalancing going on.) Not only this, but we'd need to continue to maintain this balance every time a new PvE powerset/feature is added.

 

Until we get a PvP dev I can't see that realistically happening. That's the hand we've been dealt. We can't play any other.

 

Also, a possibly important caveat to the above: even if we were to get a PvP dev, who spent hundreds of hours a month making Issue 12 PvP both workable and balanced, we'd still run the risk of alienating some of the current PvPers. Now, I'd guess that most PvPers would be up for Issue-12-but-balanced. But most isn't all. So, even if this idea were implemented perfectly, we'd still lose people. (And if it were implemented imperfectly? It could lose everyone.)

 

We're getting a bit off topic here. If you want to start a new thread to discuss this I'm happy to chat more.

Edited July 31, 2022 by America's Angel