Self-ish vs Self-less builds...

[KaizenSoze]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Were you the only one running tactics, though?  Getting those team buffs stacked is kind of the crux of this thread...

I didn't check specifically, but I guess only one or two of us were running tactics.

 

It got better once players realized what was going on. I think folks started using their -defense powers more.

[PeregrineFalcon]

As an aside, I've always thought that the Leadership pool was misnamed. Think about it for a second. It's a collection of powers that helps everyone on the team and is way better if everyone, or a bunch of people, has it. So it really should be called the Teamwork Power Pool.

 

A Leadership power pool would make more sense if it was something that helped everyone on the team but didn't stack, as leadership really only works if there's just one leader, for small teams anyway. In game terms it would have to be something that only worked if the user has the star and its effect was multiplied times the number of people within the 60' radius. But yeah, that ship's already sailed.

 

Sorry, just an errant thought.

[Nemu]

I run tactics because I hate blind. It's rather selfish, but it helps the team, so it's not selfish.

 

I don't know what I am, maybe a panda.

[biostem]

27 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

A Leadership power pool would make more sense if it was something that helped everyone on the team but didn't stack, as leadership really only works if there's just one leader, for small teams anyway. In game terms it would have to be something that only worked if the user has the star and its effect was multiplied times the number of people within the 60' radius. But yeah, that ship's already sailed.

 

Sorry, just an errant thought.

Something like a set of non-stacking buffs where the "leader" could designate a target, and teammates receive a buff if targeting that enemy, or designating a spot to move to, and teammates who move there receive a buff, etc...

[golstat2003]

I take Maneuvers when I can. (It's a great LOTG mule also). Tactics though is highly skippable. I've found over the years on teams we have more than enough to hit, especially with Incarnate abilities and the level shifts.

[Ironblade]

4 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I even have a Psi melee/Ninja Scrapper which I love which has tactics and focused accuracy. This means I hit through pretty much any debuff, 2-3 death mages on you, no problem, Carnies debuffed you, no problem. She is going to hit unless the mob is MOG'ed or invulnerable.

Damn right.  My main has plenty of accuracy in his attacks, global acc from sets, the Kismet unique, Tactics and Focused Accuracy.  He can hit just about anything in the game.  When a Protector activates Moment of Glory, I hit Build Up and destroy them.

 

All of my defenders, corrs and trollers have AT LEAST Assault and Tactics.  If they have a set with defense-based powers, then they also take Maneuvers (or if they need to mule one more Luck of the Gambler).

[Troo]

9 hours ago, biostem said:

Is it just a matter of builds being that tight?  Is it just a general lack of knowledge of how good these powers are, when there are multiple stacks?  Is it not wanting to have yet more toggles to manage?

 

Leadership might be on the down trend but I still see it lots when teaming. I like Maneuvers, slotting out Tactics and mule-ing Vengeance, but that's all for myself.

 

Likely Leadership Impacts:

• Invention Origin enhancements
• Copy n Paste builds (one poster put out 5 'epic' builds across multiple topics the past 24hr and 1 had leadership)
• The rise of solo play
• ..but maybe the impact of Incarnates, folks just skipping to 50+T3, and then playing down.

The end drain can be mitigated-ish these days.. any references to starving street walkers earning a fiver are simply hyperbolic exaggeration, and strangely detailed.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Troo

[Lines]

Selfish, but not for the reasons you think. I like characters to feel different to play, and having the same pools across them all can get dry.

[Six-Six]

Selfish: I almost always take Leadership's first 3 powers. I play a lot of ATs with no inherent defences, so having Manuevres is almost mandatory just to be able to slot a few "necessary" def IOs. The fact that it trickles to the team is secondary. I also almost always take Tactics where I can 6-slot Gaussian as I'm a sucker for the 6-piece bonus... again I have no inherent def/res... unless I have another power that takes Gaussian. If so, I weigh the end cost vs up time vs available slots I have for my build. On toons that have a lot of def/res (like my Sentinels and Melee), it's a matter of end consumption vs overall benefit vs power picks. I won't take it for the sake of the team if it means compromising my own performance or fun.

Selfless: As someone who used to run with an all spider SG, I know how much value Leadership brings to the table... to the point that we would double dip when we could. Just showing up with a double-dipped spider on a team is enough of a contribution. Assault's +damage and Tactics +To Hit also add up. Most people may not notice it, or even falsely attribute the team's ease at steamrolling to how good the team is or how good they are on that run, but those two powers are unsung heroes. Of course I have toons that don't take them but have similar or better powers in their place (i.e. Linked Minds, Coordinated Targeting, Force Field Generator, etc.). Ultimately, it boils down to how tight the build is (sometimes I just can't fit in another tertiary pool and Leadership often falls low on the list--largely under the impression that everyone else takes them), and again I will still prioritise my own rear end before everyone else's. Sounds selfish, but I won't be much good to the team if I'm always dead.

[Snarky]

If you have end issues in the modern game it is due to one or two factors, possibly both.  Either an ignorance about how to make cash or an ignorance of how to build once you have cash

 

The panacea, miracle and numina in health and perf shifter in stamina will solve most end issues.  I run end heavy builds and there are tricks based on toon and playstyle past the basics. Most of my builds still dive into leadership hard, again, even if solo

 

taking (even while solo) maneuvers and tactics is a ghetto level shift against every mob you fight.  It changes the terrain you fight on. You now have the high ground. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Snarky

[TheOtherTed]

On Live, my main character took the entire Leadership line - not because I was "selfless," but because I thought it'd be cool to build the character around the pool.  And it was - I felt like I was bringing something unique and helpful to whatever team I was on.

 

However, I never took any of the pool on any other character - and I'd consider myself a full-on team player back then.  At the time, tactical meta-factors like situational awareness, watching your teammates' backs, and knowing the limits of your character had more value for me.

 

Leadership is sort of a reverse "tragedy of the commons" thing:  If everyone took it, it would be phenomenal, but the benefit of each power is hard to balance against the opportunity cost of a slot and the endurance drain.  That said, I often consider working my way up to Tactics to make better use of silly things like my Dark/Dark Corruptor's Sands of Mu.  I just haven't done it.  Yet.  I'm sure I will someday.

 

Also, have the buff bonuses changed for the different archetypes?  According to the only reasonably current wiki I know of, Tankers get the same Leadership toggle bonuses as other purely melee types (and Blasters).

[Erratic1]

15 hours ago, biostem said:

Tankers get pretty good values from leadership, IIRC, (at least on tactics, anyway).

 

Tankers (along with Blasters, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers) the lowest values across all of the Leadership powers compared to other ATs.

 

 

 

 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

The panacea, miracle and numina in health and perf shifter in stamina will solve most end issues.

 

Radiation Melee and Dark Armor glance at each other, then say simultaneously, "Hold my beer."

[Six-Six]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

If you have end issues in the modern game it is due to one or two factors, possibly both.  Either an ignorance about how to make cash or an ignorance of how to build once you have cash

I take it this was in reference to my post. Most of my toons are more than self sufficient inf-wise. So I suppose it's the other factor.

However, I didn't say I had end issues. What I do have an issue with is picking powers that cost end but do not deliver the desired benefit or performance for such a cost in the context of my toon's concept.

For example, I have a /WP toon that didn't take Leadership Maneuvres (2.5% to all def for 39end/sec) because he took Flight's Evasive Maneuvres that gave 12.17% to all def for 26/sec, even though the status protection was redundant. As for concept vs practicality, I have a Fire/Fire Sentinel, Flame Brain. He's not the brightest bulb in the tanning salon, so he has no business taking Leadership toggles. Could he have used them? surely. But his concept prevented me from taking them.

[Black Zot]

Evasive Maneuvers' defense rating is an illusion; it shuts down in combat.  For all practical purposes, it has that number solely so it qualifies as a LOTG mule.

[MrAxe]

I only took assault as there was nothing left of any worth to take once we got afterburner for free. From a tank point of view I don't think its worth it in a lot of cases. Yet another toggle sapping your endurance and a small benefit compared to how you're already protecting the team in an already easy game.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Radiation Melee and Dark Armor glance at each other, then say simultaneously, "Hold my beer."

My Dark Dark Brute   Has maneuvers but no room...sigh...for tactics

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.2.17
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Snarky 5.0: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- TchofDth-Acc/Dmg(A), TchofDth-Dmg/Rchg(3), TchofDth-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), TchofDth-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), TchofDth-Dam%(5)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(7), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(7), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), GldArm-3defTpProc(9)
Level 2: Death Shroud -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(11), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(15)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(17), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(19), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 6: Shadow Maul -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(21), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Arm-Acc/Rchg(23), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Arm-Dam%(25)
Level 8: Fly -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(25), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(27), UnbGrd-Max HP%(27)
Level 12: Siphon Life -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(31)
Level 14: Touch of Fear -- CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-%Dam(50)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(33), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(33), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(34), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(34), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 20: Cloak of Darkness -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), Rct-ResDam%(36), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(37)
Level 22: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 24: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(37), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(40)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- CldSns-%Dam(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(42)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(42), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Hct-Acc/Rchg(43), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Hct-Dam%(43)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 38: Soul Tentacles -- Bmbdmt-Dam(A), Bmbdmt-Acc/Rech/End(45), Bmbdmt-Dam/Rech(45), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech(45), Bmbdmt-Acc/Dam/Rech/End(46), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(46)
Level 41: Dark Obliteration -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(46), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(48), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Rgn-Knock%(50)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Soul Transfer -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Cardiac Radial Boost 
Level 8: Afterburner 
------------

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1505;678;1356;HEX;|
|78DA6594DB6E12511486F73083089402ADA5F4802D3D42B1083D794E3C602FB4244|
|D9A78615442CA40890804DAC43E80CF60A23DAB6FE26378E98517B655AB51A3745C|
|33EBDFA9CD900CDFDEFFDAFFACB5D79E99ECF34C5BB1387F5328DE3B957CB399BBD|
|D585BD59DD97CA9BCAC0A213C4BD57CE3E9FAE06C32E5A269C80AE7B27A45D79319|
|8AF030CC72462FEAD52602B71ACF6A0DE15DACD52AC9F94AB9B4B2EAE3B1392C574|
|B1E6BB654D7F582DF1A2EE8F982DE68AE94EBDD77EBE5E524DF73A9B656C965F3CD|
|55BDB11EA60AC6E9FA4C9750CC3F6168E2A1A96AC2F1087CCCD49E8039E6AB53A6E|
|FB4B9B45B9CF901FE649EFD054E315F9B1E989C4A9B66891E1FD8CE6CF38301667B|
|90B9412E15665545C600327620630732EED32AA74026E76587259EBB025E6586AE8|
|1D799E11B4C2F9D8D0B9984EB83296A6293666E99DE8DF461A4EF45FADEDFCC435A|
|E5951BF5EEB0D8BF0BEE31CFBF01DF82EF9807E4F2C1ACF83E52FA8826D29F985BA|
|4FAB9F386E6FFC3050FFE055BE031336A30BFD2EAA03405618AC214856918A66198|
|B6697527CA7074B608110A1E718D23F74DBA84835AD5255BD5F5829D2A89DDB255D|
|D68D5085A3582568DE1A4BED1AA1ED4E6ECD9E0B31EDB04B798E3DBE00EB8CBDC21|
|579F6C551F5A1447CB342A23226B8B985592E3886603F26406C6F86CE3E3608C391|
|10727C00473975C43F28E437304972A0AB48F51F9A88DB6B8B00BC7A0019A4F2371|
|52011D4C9DCC31698E4D71FF26A7991767C059708E99BEC41CA20D26E4EE1309C14|
|13048C1A4AC3569ED5E137B344BA1D9228595F3DAC9AB6CF46B42FE0C736E1862C1|
|2E2D6AD241926249FB9E93771BD2815D3AFC4F722851D5AAAAFD9E627D53020FB8C|
|A2FA77C2F7106F62A5276296D97A6EDD28C5D7207E8EB02C9784F2F4B5A764484E8|
|9865E41F6FFFF5AE|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, Snarky said:

My Dark Dark Brute   Has maneuvers but no room...sigh...for tactics

 

There are certainly ways to deal with the endurance cravings Radiation Melee or Dark Armor provoke and certainly looking at either's thematically paired set is a good idea (nevermind my absolute refusal to ever have thematically paired  primary/secondary powersets). But if someone really wanted to play Radiaton Melee/Dark Armor....

 

Remember Ross Perot? You need to think about the following line said with his voice:  There will be a giant sucking sound.

 

 

 

[Snarky]

Now i want to run Rad/Dark Brute.   Need a great thematic name though.   And…err…i think i may have to six slot stamina

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Now i want to run Rad/Dark Brute.   Need a great thematic name though.   And…err…i think i may have to six slot stamina

 

I would suggest Radiant Black but there is an actual comic book character with that name.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

taking (even while solo) maneuvers and tactics is a ghetto level shift against every mob you fight.

 

[Neiska]

At the end of the day, different players will have different priorities. Even when I take leadership stuff, often it's for my own benefit more so than what it might bring to the team. It also depends on my build and what role I want to fill. If I am on my crabber, then I try to double dip on stuff, that way my mere presence on the team brings quite a bit to the table. On my tankers? Not so much. I usually just have Maneuvers, if that. Depends on the armor set really. Some powerset combinations can be quite demanding on END, even with the before mentioned things such as super slotting health and stamina, cardiac, ageless, and so on. And personally, I dislike having to rely on incarnates and popping blue inspirations to make a build work, because you can run out of those during long fights, and that's not considering END draining enemies either. It also depends on Power slots available. On Bio Armor you are pretty locked into taking everything, so depending on the primary I may or may not have space to take other things, particularly if I want to take other tools such as Fold Space or Rune of Protection on the build, which I often do on Bio due to Bio's lack of mezz protection. Also keep in mind you are limited to how many pool picks you can take as well.

 

So, do I take leadership? Not always, but often. But not ALL the time, no.

 

Not everyone builds for min/max for solo or teaming. Some people do, and that's okay. But I think it's a bit narcissistic for a player to expect/demand everyone runs 3 leadership toggles and get shocked or shaken when they don't. If someone wants to take another power pool for whatever - theme, fun, experimenting, roleplay, non-teaming reasons, or just plain old personal preference than I say that's their business.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Neiska

[Yomo Kimyata]

Personally, I would have chosen a less inflammatory title like “Should everyone doing hard mode have the Leadership pool”.  I don’t think it is constructive to assign moral labels like “selfless” or “selfish” to categorize ways a person wants to play.  But that’s not the point of the post, I don’t think.

 

Leadership is a good pool, and even better if you team.  I’d certainly choose Maneuvers over Combat Teleport as a one off pick.  
 

I mostly solo, but when I do team it’s a PUG and I’ve never been disappointed by a team’s makeup or power choices.  However, and this is admittedly a very big point, I have not gone down the 4 star Master of rabbit hole yet.  I frankly haven’t had the time!  But I understand that team make up and powers may be much more important in that case rather than in my experiences so far.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I mostly solo, but when I do team it’s a PUG and I’ve never been disappointed by a team’s makeup or power choices.  However, and this is admittedly a very big point, I have not gone down the 4 star Master of rabbit hole yet.  I frankly haven’t had the time!  But I understand that team make up and powers may be much more important in that case rather than in my experiences so far.

yes indeed.  in my opinion the current design is making it so only a few archetypes are truly valuable badgers.  anyone else is a carry or half carry.  an MM, Sentinel, and leaning into Brute is just less valuable when the objectives are written so tight you need not only good play and understanding but absolutely optimal buffs, dps, and tankage.

[DrunkFlux]

I wouldn't call someone selfish or selfless for not taking or taking leadership, I would however add a few points.

 

Leadership Maneuvers can level the playing field for non-incarnates at higher level difficulties.  Leadership: Tactics can do so twice as effectively often, assuming it's just given an endurance reduction enhancement (usually what I do).

 

Leadership Maneuvers and Tactics are must-haves for the new hard mode difficulties higher than the lowest setting.  Enemies at the higher settings get lots of defense, if you cannot hit them, your damage PLUMMETS exponentially.  A character with only 20-30% chance to hit just as well have almost no dps at all, as they just miss to often, enemies may even out-regen them.  With a 20% increased to-hit from the mobs, you need the ENTIRE team to have maneuvers to reliably counter that to bring it within reason. 

 

I just flat-out don't like the new difficulty mode past the lowest setting purely for that reason alone.  As a result, I can never recommend more than 2 star, purely on numbers alone.  I drew the conclusion on the AEON hard mode TF, and also drew it even more-so on the hard mode ITF.