Focused Feedback: Power Level Availability Changes

[_NOPE_]

5 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Personally, I've always *appreciated* those gaps, I have to say. Usually because there's been something else picked up (say, a travel power) and those levels have let me "catch up" if I needed on the primary and secondary. Or it's let me finally have a place to grab a pool if I've felt like I've had so many required picks up to those points.

It was my recollection that the Original Devs™ (ODs™, like OGs!) did this intentionally, for just the reasons why you stated. In fact, I believe that the words used at the time were "breathing room", to give players a chance to get used to their powers, find their favored strategies, and explore how the power pools affected those strategies.

 

I believe it was also stated that their intention for the first secondary power to be locked in because it was meant to be a "signature" power of the sets, representing what those sets do the best, or at least what they were meant to represent.

 

But, that was the ODs, back in 2003. It was a different world, and a different gaming environment than it is today. New world, new rules, I suppose.

[ScarySai]

The power creep comments are strange to me, we must not be playing the same game. 

 

Exemping will be much less awful for a few archetypes, many powersets will feel generally better to play at a lower level, and the endgame remains mostly unchanged, with the option to skip your garbage t1 secondary.

 

Seems like a win to me. We can pretend this breaks lower content if we pretend that purpled builds don't exist, I suppose.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ScarySai

[Voltak]

I am addressing the Devs here if they read this.  
If this is a concern to you at all, please keep in mind the following 

Still, the nukes are lesser dmg at lesser levels.   The HPs enemies are higher at higher levels, but so is the dmg of the nuke.  HPs are lower at lower levels, and so is the dmg. 
Not only that but enhancements ... well, you have even less slots at lower levels. 

Stalker AS, as some have mentioned,  is a good example. It is designed to be AS typer power, but the lower level you go, the lower dmg you do. The higher lvl, the higher dmg.  
Less slots , less enhancements = also less dmg. 
 Not only less dmg, but also longer recharge, so you use even less frequent. 

IF AS doing too much dmg was a real concern , it's best to remove it entirely. 
Since that won't be the case, I assume it's not going to be a concern. 

Players are going to be all right. 

2. Exempting issue -  the real problem are IOs and sets.  Everything else is a by product. But again, who you team with is your choice.  So, decide accordingly. 

So, from me as a player, this is fine.  
Kudos . 
 

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Seems like a win to me. We can pretend this breaks lower content if we pretend that purpled builds don't exist, I suppose.

 

Some people actually *play* lower level content.  I find myself preferring low to mid level content because I'm not going to be in the middle of "Cap this, Judgement that, Perma the other thing."

 

This *is* pretty much literal power creep. And the game doesn't need it, quite frankly. There's no glut of oh-so-difficult low/mid range content or any problem this solves.

 

Though, it's going in to the game anyway. I have absolutely zero faith that this is not going live no matter what's said. Didn't run into any bugs creating a character to test other things, so...

[@T3h Ish]

Having the option to skip things like Web Grenade, or Alkaloid on Poison for a non-Defender is something of a game changer.
In addition, as an MM? Far less of a miserable early-game, or when exemplaring down for SF/TF content.

Having the opportunity to pick your more iconic powers in your chosen power sets earlier, is a good thing. You can still choose to take it later, game's about options and customizability of your heroes, villains, or the things inbetween.

So, honestly. I'm fine with these changes and have a substantial impact to early-leveling by making it more bearable, same with exemplaring. Synapse no longer feels like an absolute slog with the options that are going to be available to players. I've thoroughly enjoyed the changes broadly speaking with a few exceptions.

Edited October 5, 2022 by @T3h Ish
Expanding reasoning.

[Faultline]

11 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

This is coming from the perspective of a computer programmer and database administrator who always makes sure to add at least one "are you REALLY sure" dialogue box into all of his programs on deletion events, because deletions in databases largely can't be undone without restoring the ENTIRE database, which causes even more problems with other records that had been modified in the meantime. In short (too late!) outright deletions of content/data should always be a last resort IMHO.

 

Posts were hidden, not deleted. Devs can still painfully see every last bit of the back-and-forth arguing. The posts are hidden to stop more back-and-forth arguing from being piled on top. If you want to argue with another player on the theory behind the changes, do it on another thread or in PMs - this is a Focused Feedback thread. Focus.

[Brutal Justice]

12 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Still, the nukes are lesser dmg at lesser levels.   The HPs enemies are higher at higher levels, but so is the dmg of the nuke.  HPs are lower at lower levels, and so is the dmg. 
Not only that but enhancements ... well, you have even less slots at lower levels. 

Stalker AS, as some have mentioned,  is a good example. It is designed to be AS typer power, but the lower level you go, the lower dmg you do. The higher lvl, the higher dmg.  

It’s not a flat curve.  You do less damage at lower levels.  True.  But you do a higher percentage of the mobs hp at lower “edit: level, not damage” than you do at higher levels.  

 

Its not the whole story to just state you do less at lower and higher at higher.  

 

A nuke at lower levels will do a higher percentage of damage to a mob than at higher levels.  

Edited October 5, 2022 by Brutal Justice
Used damage instead of level

[_NOPE_]

Thanks for the clarification @Faultline. That's very good to know. I really hate it when content gets deleted. There actually were some very good rational discussions in there. I just wish we wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Edited October 5, 2022 by The Philotic Knight

[ScarySai]

32 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Some people actually *play* lower level content.

I'm one of them. Your point? 

 

32 minutes ago, Greycat said:

This *is* pretty much literal power creep.

 

It really isn't. Getting the same powers earlier doesn't break the game the way you would have me believe it does. The late 20 mobs and mid 30s aren't tuned that differently.

 

Unless you're about to tell me that +0 skyraiders aren't a joke to just roll over on most archetypes with passable aoe.

 

The concerns of power creep are unfounded, as if the people talking about it forgot what game they were playing.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ScarySai

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The power creep comments are strange to me,

 

Ditto.  The powers most responsible for creep are pool powers, like Hasten, Tough/Weave, Maneuvers, Defense powers for LotG global +Rchg slotting.  Having access to primary/secondary powers earlier isn't going to make anyone stop taking those pool powers.

I say go for it.  We don't need mandated pool powers any more, and this is closer to the original vision of the game.

[Number Six]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you want to leave feedback, positive or negative, then just leave feedback. Go straight to the point so that we see it clearly.

 

Rule 5, people. Commenting on other people's feedback and getting into arguments and hurtling insults at each other over it just wastes everybody's time. We've asked the GMs to show no mercy on the feedback threads this round because it's becoming a recurring problem.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 minute ago, @T3h Ish said:

Having the option to skip things like Web Grenade, or Alkaloid on Poison for a non-Defender is something of a game changer.
In addition, as an MM? Far less of a miserable early-game, or when exemplaring down for SF/TF content.

Having the opportunity to pick your more iconic powers in your chosen power sets earlier, is a good thing. You can still choose to take it later, game's about options and customizability of your heroes, villains, or the things inbetween.

So, honestly. I'm fine with these changes and have a substantial impact to early-leveling by making it more bearable, same with exemplaring. Synapse no longer feels like an absolute slog with the options that are going to be available to players.

This is how I'm looking at it. I specifically rolled a Traps Defender on live instead of a Corruptor because I wanted to be able to skip web grenade because it's nigh on useless without the /Devices treatment. This means my low level /Traps MM's can now take Caltrops instead and have something more helpful to contributing to killing/arresting mobs than fuddy duddy web grenade.

 

Though admittedly the addition of powers coming at earlier levels threw me off some on first read. Maybe the people lucky enough to run groups on Beta can hopefully test and report how it feels in the level ranges most impacted? By myself I don't seem to notice much of a difference on the 2-3 characters I copied over in the 26-30ish range. They certainly don't feel game breakingly overpowered--I faceplanted on at least 1 of them multiple times.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

and this is closer to the original vision of the game.

 

... the one where people could take invulnerability and flight, and be an invulnerable flyer with no attacks? ;)

[Brutal Justice]

Opening t2 at level one actually allows earlier selection of pool powers like hasten.  You may cause a choice later with the level changes but you’ve reduced that conundrum at the same time. 

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

 

... the one where people could take invulnerability and flight, and be an invulnerable flyer with no attacks? 😉

 

Yes.  And since that problem is resolved, as we now have a means of obtaining multiple free and cheap attacks, travel powers, buffs/debuffs and utility powers without being locked into pool selections, the old restrictions aren't necessary any more.

[_NOPE_]

Well, there's arguments, and then there's discussions. I know it's a fine line, but there were a lot of posts that were hidden that didn't involve any insults, and were just discussions and explorations about the philosophy of game design and what these changes mean against those subjects. That those parts of the conversations can't be seen... lessens the conversation, in my opinion.

 

"...and each voice lost... diminishes us"

 

 

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Brutal Justice said:

Opening t2 at level one actually allows earlier selection of pool powers like hasten.  You may cause a choice later with the level changes but you’ve reduced that conundrum at the same time. 

 

We can now pick Hasten lower than level 4?

[Faultline]

15 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Well, there's arguments, and then there's discussions. I know it's a fine line, but there were a lot of posts that were hidden that didn't involve any insults,

 

Irrelevant - for crying out loud, go make a separate thread titled "Is changing the power levels power creep?" and have the arguments/discussion there. This is a Focused Feedback thread. We want Focused. Feedback.

 

Edit: Number Six posted it better here:

Mods feel free to kill my posts during the next round of cleanup.

 

 

[Seed22]

3 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

Irrelevant - for crying out loud, go make a separate thread titled "Is changing the power levels power creep?" and have the arguments/discussion there. This is a Focused Feedback thread. We want Focused. Feedback.

On the topic of Focused Feedback, what’s that exactly look like here? It can be said till the cows come home but what do you ACTUALLY want us to look for specifically in this case? I’m looking to test some things in a bit, and this change, which is the most interesting to me to test, is on the docket. 
 

I’ve already tested/provided my yake on Fiery Aura, so this is next.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Seed22

[Brutal Justice]

6 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

We can now pick Hasten lower than level 4?

I’m pretty sure I said selection.  Not unlock.  Nice try.  

[Number Six]

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

On the topic of Focused Feedback, what’s that exactly look like here? It can be said till the cows come home but what do you ACTUALLY want us to look for specifically in this case? I’m looking to test some things in a bit, and this change, which is the most interesting to me to test, is on the docket. 
 

I’ve already tested/provided my yake on Fiery Aura, so this is next.

 

Aside from testing whether or not the mechanics work properly... does it improve the flow of power selection when leveling? Does it make the experience at low-medium levels better, worse? Does it make you completely overpowered at those levels or is it balanced out by lack of slots and fighting for power picks with pools and other options?

 

Subjective feedback is absolutely fine for something like this, just without all the back-and-forth.

[Seed22]

3 minutes ago, Number Six said:

 

Aside from testing whether or not the mechanics work properly... does it improve the flow of power selection when leveling? Does it make the experience at low-medium levels better, worse? Does it make you completely overpowered at those levels or is it balanced out by lack of slots and fighting for power picks with pools and other options?

 

Subjective feedback is absolutely fine for something like this, just without all the back-and-forth.

Much appreciated! This, I can work with.

[KaizenSoze]

I think this is wonderful change for many ATs.

 

*/Storm can skip gale

Defenders can skip that weak secondary T1. Same for Dominator.

More attacks at lower level also means more end usage, so it's not as straight forward as everyone will can have more attacks.

 

If folks are worried about power creep, yes this is power creep, which you can easily compensate for by raising the difficultly.

 

[Wavicle]

18 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Not an "issue" as much as just the way that screen works. Its worked this way for years for VEAT respects, they always been able to skip their T1 from their secondary.

 

Is this true of Widows or just Soldiers?

[Draeth Darkstar]

This is my favorite change that has ever been made.

 

As someone who plays mostly squishies, a choice between the first two secondary powers is a godsend and the earlier access to t9s makes the leveling quality of life SO MUCH BETTER, especially for Controllers and Masterminds.