-Res Proc vs. Damage Proc?

[SableShrike]

I've been trying to suss this out ingame, but my maths skills leave a bit to be desired.

 

It SEEMS that I drop stuff faster with an additional damage proc vs. the Achilles in most fights.

 

Just wondering if anyone's done the math for this already; does the -Res proc outshine a damage proc versus AVs and GMs?

 

Am I also right in that Achilles' won't stack on teams, so if a teammate is using them I'd be better off with a damage proc?

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, SableShrike said:

I've been trying to suss this out ingame, but my maths skills leave a bit to be desired.

 

It SEEMS that I drop stuff faster with an additional damage proc vs. the Achilles in most fights.

 

Just wondering if anyone's done the math for this already; does the -Res proc outshine a damage proc versus AVs and GMs?

 

Am I also right in that Achilles' won't stack on teams, so if a teammate is using them I'd be better off with a damage proc?

A -Res proc will not stack with itself even if the proc is used by more than one person. Two different -res procs will stack with each other. -Res will likely seem the lesser proc if you are soloing. Stacking -40% Res is going to matter on a team and far out do damage procs.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Without_Pause

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, SableShrike said:

Just wondering if anyone's done the math for this already; does the -Res proc outshine a damage proc versus AVs and GMs?

This brings an additional question to mind.  There is AV resistance to various things, and there is purple patch resistance (being lower level, like a 50 v a 54).  I think I’ve got a handle on the former, but the description in the wiki on the latter is more vague.

 

For example, is -damage resistance further resisted by +4, or is it simply a function of damage resistance regardless of relative level?

[nihilii]

14 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

is -damage resistance further resisted by +4

Yes

 

😪

[SableShrike]

Thanks, for the replies, gang.  Bummer to hear the +4 and purple patch hoses even the -Res procs.

[Galaxy Brain]

It depends on the context.

 

A single damage proc will hit for ~72 damage which could account for WAY more than the -20% res of an achilles. An attack would need to deal 310 or more in order for the -20% to match or surpass the +72 damage dealt!

 

However, the -20% res will linger and effect all damage on the target. So an attack with 200 damage + 72 proc damage will be boosted from 272 -> 326 damage total. So unless you run with a team where you know they have -res procs everywhere it is usually a good idea to have it somewhere in your build in order to make the damage procs even better.

 

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

This brings an additional question to mind.  There is AV resistance to various things, and there is purple patch resistance (being lower level, like a 50 v a 54).  I think I’ve got a handle on the former, but the description in the wiki on the latter is more vague.

 

For example, is -damage resistance further resisted by +4, or is it simply a function of damage resistance regardless of relative level?

 

Yes all damage resistance debuffs are subject to the increasing resistance of a +4 AV so any value of resistance debuff it says you get you can expect to have about 2/3 of it actually in effect.  Even still maintaining a 13% -res debuff on a hard target is great over the long run, if you're using the achilles proc and then if you can consistently stack the pvp one that's another 13% which having a 25-30% resistance debuff on a target is quite noticeable.  

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

For example, is -damage resistance further resisted by +4, or is it simply a function of damage resistance regardless of relative level?

 

Purple patch isn't resistance to debuffs, or a function of debuffs, or a function of Resistance, it's not a power or anything in a power, it's a flat reduction when facing +X foes.  It's an adjustment to the number before other calculations, or other parts of a calculation, are performed.

 

Versus a +4 foe, a 20% Resistance debuff nets 9.6% -Res (20 * 0.48 = 9.6).  That's the number that exists, 9.6, before any Resistance calculations are performed.  If the +4 critter has 50% Smashing Resistance, the game checks that against the 9.6% -Res, not 20%, and arrives at a total of 50 - (9.6 * 0.50 = 4.8) = 45.2% final Smashing Resistance.  Even if you pile on a ton of -Special to reduce the critter's resistance to debuffs, 9.6% is the ceiling because the purple patch isn't a resistance, it's a change to the underlying mathematics used to calculate everything else.

[Yomo Kimyata]

From the wiki—

 

These modifers apply to almost everything in combat: Debuffstrength, Mez duration, Knockback magnitude, and Damage are all affected.

 So “almost”…. What’s not included?  -damage debuffs, anything?

 

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

From the wiki—

 

These modifers apply to almost everything in combat: Debuffstrength, Mez duration, Knockback magnitude, and Damage are all affected.

 So “almost”…. What’s not included?  -damage debuffs, anything?

 

 

Mostly it's as Luminara says.  It's the difference in levels of fighting a level 50 baddie equal to yourself or an increasing general overall resistance to all things as it becomes 4 levels above you or 3 if you are 50+1.  

 

There's caveats to these values as some powers like Flash Arrow from Trick Arrow for instance it will have two listed values of -tohitt in it's equation if you show details of how the power is.  The way mine is slotted I get 13% -tohitt and another 13% -tohitt (unresisted).  The unresisted value I'm getting will always be the full 13% and then that other 13% scaled by the level of the critter and their resistance to it so it's not a full 26% but rather somewhere around 18% -tohitt after the various factors and calculations are considered.  

 

Most things are varied in resistance as the critter and boss level changes with a few powers which in their descriptions say that they come with unresistable portions.  Sometimes the unresistable portions are also meant for buffers so that their teammates get the full values of buffs because they'll likely have high resistances to these buffs otherwise.  Then there's things like + or - special which is a whole other ball of wax.  

 

It's best to work under the assumption that most things will be resisted pretty high by a +4 AV and that the purple triangles are mainly to help the AV during the fight so they don't get permanently held to give it a fighting chance.  

[tidge]

When I am considering slotting a %-resistance instead of %damage, I consider the following:

• %-Resistance from the same source won't stack with itself, but will extend the duration of the -Resistance.
• The %-Resistance procs, all have relatively short durations. 
• Attacks have to land in the short duration of a %-Resistance to benefit from the proc.

For a great majority of my characters. I don't end up slotting %-Resistance, because for most content I'm (individually, solo) not going to get enough benefit from %-Resistance. Personal exceptions listed below:

 

If a character has a relatively low-damage AoE (with a reliable %proc rate) which immediately can be followed by another AoE in the attack chain that does more damage (than the preceding attack), then the first attack may get a %-resistance piece.

 

My thinking is that a one-two combo like this can soften up a large spawn and then finish a large number of mobs in the spawn.

 

If my character is a Mastermind, I try to add the same %-Resistance piece to multiple attacks, praying that RNGesus keeps the -Resistance going to help my henchmen do slightly more damage.

 

The lower tier henchmen need as much help as can be mustered. My most reliable GM killer is Robotics/Traps; it has 2 Annihilation %-Resistance pieces slotted in 2 different (primary/patron) MM attacks. The hope is that my henchmen are making attacks while the -Resistance is in play, and that spreading the AoE -Res will land on enemies they have chosen to attack (while in bodyguard mode).

 

The Mastermind exception applies to characters that will be playing with large teams. Of course it is possible to use enhancement unslotters to change out at any time. I occasionally do this in AoE attacks on some Tankers if it looks like a team isn't finishing enemy spawns 'quickly enough'. The idea is that if I'm not getting teh attacks in during the %-Resistance period, then my teammates will be.

[TheZag]

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

What’s not included?  -damage debuffs, anything?

 

As far as I've ever been able to determine, all debuffs, all controls, hit rolls, damage, everything applied to an enemy is purple patched.  If it's used on something above your level, it's diminished in some way.  Below your level, it's enhanced.  Even effects flagged to override resistance are subject to purple patch math.  Speculatively, the sentence was phrased as such just in case someone found an effect that wasn't affected by the purple patch.

 

Buffs, on the other hand, are not affected by the purple patch.  Or, they're not supposed to be, and when one is found that is, it's adjusted accordingly.  When one does crop up, it's almost always a secondary effect of an attack/debuff/control and is unintentionally boosted or diminished when the attack/debuff/control is used on an enemy below or above +0.  Those have to be specifically flagged to ignore level differences.

[Bionic_Flea]

My recollection is that the -res procs are coded to make the target debuff him or herself, so that there is no purple patch or level considerations, other than initially hitting.

[Glacier Peak]

I'd say it depends on how long the battle goes for. Look at the Pylon and Trapdoor runs - it's good to have -res on at least one power (folks have mentioned it not stacking) and then damage procs on the rest of the attack chain if possible. 

[Snarky]

Even though I have a metric crapton of math training I am NOT going to drag it out for stuff like this.  Not for me, you, or anyone.

 

I use the "common sense" math training.  This is where you look at the big picture and say "screw the details"

 

If you are solo, could be a toss up.  Could depend on the AV/Boss and their particular power sets.  So, unless some uber geek who has done intricate testing (math analysis is not enough, you gotta test.  Just ask a certain submersible captain. Oh wait, nvm)  But there are threads of people who test powers and if you want to explore their work, have at it.  For solo, I would go with feel and fun.

 

If you are on a team...  What makes more sense?  Not hard.  A little extra DPS from one person... ORrrrrrr  A Res debuff EVERYONE can take advantage of?   Yeah, it's like that.  And not a single derivative needed...

[Hedgefund]

There definitely are purple patch considerations for the -res procs.  I used a power analyzer with a Merc MM that had Achilles slotted in both the T3 and T2 pets.  They applied them very consistently, non-stop practically but depending on which one applied it last the value would be adjusted -1 (for T2) or -2 (for T3).  This actually convinced me to stop using Achilles in lower tier pets and use it in my own powers (like Infrigidate or Burst).  Damage procs are fine but I don't want unique debuffs to be purple patched to irrelevance (like a T3 pet tagging a mob +3 to me, resulting in a -5 adjustment).

Edited July 6, 2023 by Hedgefund

[Sanguinesun]

17 hours ago, SableShrike said:

I've been trying to suss this out ingame, but my maths skills leave a bit to be desired.

 

It SEEMS that I drop stuff faster with an additional damage proc vs. the Achilles in most fights.

 

Just wondering if anyone's done the math for this already; does the -Res proc outshine a damage proc versus AVs and GMs?

 

Am I also right in that Achilles' won't stack on teams, so if a teammate is using them I'd be better off with a damage proc?

 

I think the evidence may be more compelling to consider that its not just wholly about the straight math but relies heavily on the context of the situation, the powers chosen for them, proc's chance to activate/pmm in a given situation, team facilitations for the afore mentioned or being solo and more. 

 

Controlling for all the variables to tell you xyz is more effective than abc is why you see so many different threads with so many different suggestions to do different things with builds of characters in the game and is intentionally designed that way to be so.  It is why there's an almost constant set of discussions for so many data points of this game almost endlessly along with the constant influx of builds people design.

 

Thus one is not necessarily going to "outshine" the other as there are no hard absolutes with the data interpretations.

 

As other mentioned as well, just because someone else on a team has a -res proc doesnt mean that you should ignore having/using it; because again, there are chances theirs do not proc meaning no one on the team benefits.

[MoonSheep]

for high HP enemies like AVs and GMs, also consider the power of -regen as a significant aid also. it feels less relevant thesedays in the age of extreme damage, but still a useful helper

[Sovera]

I have run a few tests on -res procs because they have become something of a pet peeve of mine due to how they skew pylon tests and make tier lists separate the haves (can slot -res procs) from the have nots (has no place to slot a -res proc), when in practice the difference is not 20-30% but rather much smaller or even a wash between have and have nots. This leads to some sets being considered weak and some being considered strong, or even balance changes (such as the recent Fire Melee pass that gave the possibility to slot -res as a 'boost to damage').

 

- In practice against AVs (+4, +3 with the shift) using different opponents in the AE the difference between slotting a -res against slotting a damage proc was in the order of 4%. Bopper is our mathmagic wizard and would use different numbers or terms but I tested by wailing on the different AVs for 5 minutes with the -res and then with a damage proc. Then I saw how much HP it had in both cases, used a calculator for the percentages, and 4-5% difference between the two was the average.

 

- For clearing maps there is no difference between -res procs and damage procs (with the notable exception of the old Radiation Melee power Irradiated Ground. The power has since been 'fixed'). More data is always welcome though if someone would like to chime in. But the few others who did chime with results from map runs (Trapdoor for example) have coincided with this.

 

 

In conclusion:

 

- On a pylon two -res procs can shave the time by 20 to 30% because the community uses the open world pylons existing in Rikti War Zone. If the community would start using the pylons in the instanced mothership raid these numbers would change. It is not terribly important to change targets though since the idea of the pylon test is not to brag or puff one's chest but to see what numbers the build has. But, because the pylon is +0 it skews things. MMs get mindblowing numbers, -res effects have a huge effect, etc. This is not a problem either until these results are touted as bona fide uncontroversial facts regarding certain ATs or sets.

- Regular gameplay the -res effects has no visible effects. This is not a bad thing though as it means slotting damage or -res makes no particular difference in clearing a mission of the minions/lieutenants/bosses. With the caveat that if someone else is running the same -res proc they will not stack.

- While the effect on a +3 AV is small it does add 4% damage compared to a damage proc. With 8 players all doing 4% extra damage the AV dies faster. This is a bit academic since AVs always die fast anyway due to the large amount of firepower aimed in their direction. There are some anecdotes on how a full 8 person team could not defeat an AV but this is due to a large level disparity and/or low damage team (and even then).

- The lower level the content (which is run at lower difficulty settings such as +0 or +1) the more useful the -res procs, but paradoxically the less troubles a team has anyway against such content.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I often use -Res procs but I tend to play de/buffers rather than damagy type toons - so it seems that makes more sense.

 

If you have doubts, try both and see which seems to work better for you

 

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

- In practice against AVs (+4, +3 with the shift) using different opponents in the AE the difference between slotting a -res against slotting a damage proc was in the order of 4%. Bopper is our mathmagic wizard and would use different numbers or terms but I tested by wailing on the different AVs for 5 minutes with the -res and then with a damage proc. Then I saw how much HP it had in both cases, used a calculator for the percentages, and 4-5% difference between the two was the average.

 

I can believe the above quote from 'personal feels' from the (random) variation in defeat times I will see against zone Giant Monsters. I'm not referring to variation between a Grim Vale spawned Iron Jack and a wandering Iron Jack (for example), or zone-to-zone variation between a KR Paladin and a CF Jurassik.

 

As I wrote above, I have a Robotics/Traps Mastermind that has the same %-Resistance slotting in his attacks (I'd forgotten: I also still have one slotted in Acid Mortar from the secondary to support the primary/patron attacks); I observe a small but noticeable random variation in defeat times for the same GM (using the same number of henchmen) that I attribute (partially) to the %-Resistance proc. I suppose I could unslot those pieces and do more testing, but I'd be breaking up Annihilation set bonuses. I'm not just unmotivated about doing any specific testing... I have the very rare Soulbound Allegiance %BuildUp piece in the Battle Drones as well doing its random thing.

 

To repeat myself: The choice of (AoE) %-Resistance on a Mastermind is (for me, YMMV) something of a no-brainer, assuming that I will be running with Henchmen. a little extra %damage from a proc simply doesn't measure up against effectively boosting the damage of all the henchmen.

 

For players who don't have access to a -Resistance debuff, but desperately want one, Weaken Resolve (from the Force of Will pool) when slotted with nothing but Accuracy is IMO a pretty good choice... it is 100% of the time one of my picks when I want to go deep into that pool. Yes, it takes a power pick (as opposed to a slot for a %proc) but:

• Weaken Resolve is a 15 second duration, as opposed to 10 seconds
• The -Resistance is applied on hit, without relying on %proc chance
• Allows other pieces to go into the slot that would have had the %-Resistance piece, blah blah blah fishcakes

There are a couple of %damage procs that can also go into Weaken Resolve. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that option for all ATs, but if a build of mine is (A) going to take the power early and (B) an AT that typically does low damage against single targets, I will almost always try to slot the power for Accuracy plus at least one %damage piece. If nothing else, it then feels like I'm not completely sacrificing an attack to apply a debuff. Most builds end up with enough global +Recharge that this power's recharge time ends up being pretty close to the 15 second duration.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

For players who don't have access to a -Resistance debuff, but desperately want one, Weaken Resolve (from the Force of Will pool) when slotted with nothing but Accuracy is IMO a pretty good choice... it is 100% of the time one of my picks when I want to go deep into that pool. Yes, it takes a power pick (as opposed to a slot for a %proc) but:

• Weaken Resolve is a 15 second duration, as opposed to 10 seconds
• The -Resistance is applied on hit, without relying on %proc chance
• Allows other pieces to go into the slot that would have had the %-Resistance piece, blah blah blah fishcakes

There are a couple of %damage procs that can also go into Weaken Resolve. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that option for all ATs, but if a build of mine is (A) going to take the power early and (B) an AT that typically does low damage against single targets, I will almost always try to slot the power for Accuracy plus at least one %damage piece. If nothing else, it then feels like I'm not completely sacrificing an attack to apply a debuff. Most builds end up with enough global +Recharge that this power's recharge time ends up being pretty close to the 15 second duration.

 

My go to slotting for WR is a boosted accuracy and a AH -res.  You should be at 90% activation on the proc.  And yes it's a proc bomb (as I learned on my Passive Aggressor) but the activation time feels long enough that I probably don't use it as often as I should.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

My go to slotting for WR is a boosted accuracy and a AH -res.  You should be at 90% activation on the proc.  And yes it's a proc bomb (as I learned on my Passive Aggressor) but the activation time feels long enough that I probably don't use it as often as I should.

 

 I used to do the same with the Achilles' Heel piece (in Weaken Resolve), but it felt like a waste of a slot considering that it is still a %proc (on top of needing the underlying attack to hit) and the %proc only lasts a maximum 10 seconds (on the single-target). That is 2/3 the time of the native debuff, yet I felt it was pushing the limit on how much (in terms of slots) I wanted to invest in a another resistance debuff that is itself resistible. Solo: if the %debuff lands, I've only got 10 seconds to capitalize. I feel like this is along the lines of what @Sovera is hinting at when saying some tests skew perceptions of how much %-resistance affects gameplay.

 

For me, it comes down to "How much extra expense (in build slots) do I really want to put into potentially improving team damage (on a single target)?" There is also a high-order complication on the net value of %-Resistance on teams depending on how many different players have the same %-Resistance piece in play. I simply landed on: If I take (and cast) Weaken Resolve, at least my teammates can see me doing that... how much more debuffing can they really expect me to be doing with that power?

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

For players who don't have access to a -Resistance debuff, but desperately want one, Weaken Resolve (from the Force of Will pool) when slotted with nothing but Accuracy is IMO a pretty good choice... it is 100% of the time one of my picks when I want to go deep into that pool. Yes, it takes a power pick (as opposed to a slot for a %proc) but:

• Weaken Resolve is a 15 second duration, as opposed to 10 seconds
• The -Resistance is applied on hit, without relying on %proc chance
• Allows other pieces to go into the slot that would have had the %-Resistance piece, blah blah blah fishcakes

There are a couple of %damage procs that can also go into Weaken Resolve. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that option for all ATs, but if a build of mine is (A) going to take the power early and (B) an AT that typically does low damage against single targets, I will almost always try to slot the power for Accuracy plus at least one %damage piece. If nothing else, it then feels like I'm not completely sacrificing an attack to apply a debuff. Most builds end up with enough global +Recharge that this power's recharge time ends up being pretty close to the 15 second duration.

 

This power also does take the Achilles proc so you're getting the base value of -10% res from the power itself and also -20% from the Achilles.  It also has an ideal proc rate if you don't fidget with the recharge which you can also slot some damage procs if you'd want to use this for damage on top of the -resistance.  

 

Most of my toons that can power boost go with the Force of Will pool for Unleash Potential and I find having Weaken Resolve a great power to have in case the team is low on debuffing.  I wouldn't say there's much difference between having another damage proc slotted in lieu of an Achilles when you're solo teamed but the more teammates you have the more effective -res procs get magnified by team damage.  If I can I am choosey about only slotting these -res procs in very effective powers and not just all over the place.  

 

Didn't get down to you're conversation with Yomo yet but pretty much still the same sentiment.  

Edited July 6, 2023 by Mezmera