Let's Talk About the Holy Trinity

[Solarverse]

This may be something most of you disagree with today, but hear me out...once upon a time, most would not have disagreed with me when this game first came out. This is not an attack on anyone, but rather a topic gives some players some insight on how players who loved the Holy Trinity feels about the way the game was changed due to the players who caused that Holy Trinity to end, and why when some players hit hard on players who do prefer order and Holy Trinity, it stings...more than you could possibly understand.

 

You know something that I don't really understand? When this game came out, this game was the absolute perfect game for me, it had everything I wanted in it, it was a game built around the Holy Trinity game play in which forced cooperative game styles rather than chaos. It was like this straight out of the box. People bought the game, played the game, loved the game. Then, for whatever reason, other people bought the game, hated the game, then came to the forums and demanded the game's Holy Trinity be replaced, which threatened to end the order of play style this game once had. Of course in those days, that was met with a lot of resistance from the players who played in those days, however, the players who wanted the Holy Trinity game style replaced, kept on and kept on until one day, the Devs finally caved in to the nonstop demands and pressure from this vocal crowd. Because of this, we have what the game is today; chaos.

What I don't understand, is if you play a game and you don't like it, why demand a change on to those who do like it? Now, they can claim that they liked it back then, but when you hit the forums and demand change that ultimately changes the entire structure of that game, let's be honest, you didn't really like the game, they instead wanted to change the game in to what they wanted it to be, instead of what it actually was, which was what caused people to demand it be changed in the first place.

I for one (probably among the last of my kind still playing this game, since these days most players seem to be in favor of chaos over order) actually loved the Holy Trinity game play of this game, I loved it straight out of the box, it was right up my alley. It was not easy, it required team work, it required everyone know their class, it required...wait for it...Healers! I loved the structure and the cooperation this game once had. It was far less chaotic, you didn't have Blasters running off on their own soloing half the map, if they did, they would completely face plant and get yelled at by other team members. Blaster did not rush ahead of the Tank and aggro mobs without serious consequences. You didn't have Controllers locking down mobs before they could even move, that always ended up in dead Controllers, instead Controllers of those days timed their Immobilize, they waited for mobs to stack on the Tank and then they Immobilized the mobs. You had players who actually aimed their Knock Back to put mobs closer to the Tank or even knocked them back in to the Corner the Tank had them gathered in, which was helpful to the Tank, unlike today, instead we see mobs scatter all over the map.

 

In those days, their was a certain order that the Holy Trinity forced players to abide by. That was what the game was...

 

...until the demands started to flood the forums by players who wanted the game to be easier and didn't care that their demands would screw that up for everyone else...and ultimately, the Devs caved as they typically did to the whiny crowds of those times, despite the heavy resistance players gave against those changes. Sadly, those players who gave heavy resistance to those changes have all but completely mass exodus this game...it feels like I am the only one left...I guess that makes me a relic.

Today, when anyone says anything in favor of those days or maybe has an idea that might bring some of that back, it is often met with somebody who has something snooty to respond with, or that troll tool (Why it still exists is beyond me, it is a damn troll tool and nothing more) thumbs down without a response as to why. You sometimes see in response something like, "The game has evolved, nobody likes the Holy Trinity," sometimes followed by something demeaning. When I see these types of responses, I can't help but to think to myself, 'You mean nobody likes the Holy Trinity who is left playing the game after the ones who did like the Holy Trinity split once the complainers got their way...'

Yes, I know, that is a pretty shitty way to think of it, but the way people who demanded changes to this game left a bad taste in my mouth that I don't think you can ever truly get over...I will forever be a bit bitter of that, not in a grudgingly way, but just...a bit bitter. You see, when the players who loved order had to face the fact that the OG Devs caved in to the players who wanted everything on easy mode, those players left the game, leaving the game to the players who demanded those changes. Much like how you don't want the game changed now, we didn't want the game changed back then.

 

A small example as to how that has negatively impacted this game for players like myself, is the Hollows. All one needs as proof to this is the very thing I fought extremely hard against, turning Hollows in to a playground instead of leaving it as an actual Hazard Zone, there is absolutely nothing "hazard" about that zone anymore, I often wonder why the OG Devs allowed it to be continued to be called a hazard zone after what they did to it, it was salt being rubbed in the wound, it was a pure insult, it was just another example of how players wanted everything on easy mode to the point that the OG Devs actually turned Hollows in to a kiddie play ground instead of a dangerous zone not meant for players who wanted things easy.

Now, before you all go hammering on me over this, understand that I am not trying to change the game back...I'm too damn old for that fight and don't have it in me, now, I am just a bitter old man who is trying to get some of you who would hammer me over this to understand where some of us are coming from and how those players who complained in those days has stolen something that we cherished from players who are like myself, players who preferred order, who despised chaos, who preferred the Holy Trinity...those players of those days (some of whom may or may not still be playing) stole that from us. I ask that you please realize before you go ripping in to somebody like-minded to myself, the game was once a Holy Trinity game first. That was taken from us. So have a bit of sympathy before you (if you are the type, otherwise this doesn't apply to you) go hammering down at somebody who says something or brings up an idea that might make you feel that his/her statement or idea goes against the grain of what you want this game to be. Remember, this game was once the game that they wanted, the Holy Trinity game that you hate so much, until one day it was complained away much like a great deal of things in this game is complained away. So I ask instead of unleashing your holy hell and thumbs down at the individual, be a bit understanding, and simply disagree without hammering on those players.

 

P.S. If you can't understand and you instead decide to thumb down my post, let me just say; you know what you can go do with that thumb...lol.

 

Thanks for lending your ear.

 

Disclaimer: This post was not intended to offend, it was simply intended to show another point of view on how we feel about the subject. I guess saying "No offense..." isn't worth much, but...No offense. 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

P.S. I have to head to work for a while, so it may take some time to respond to questions or comments. I drive Simi these days as my retirement job (it's easy and laid back work, you simply can't beat it and it pays well) so I won't be able to respond until I get to the dock that my load is going to...I drive locally so it won't take more than a few hours. Just an FYI.

[Snarky]

Chaos always wins.  Lee's law of Conservation of Possible Plotlines

[Oubliette_Red]

The Holy Trinity is one of the thing I hate about other MMO's. I play DDO with some friends and that what we play is more determined by what is needed on the team (trapper/tank/healer) rather that what we'd really like to play is a major annoyance.

 

What you call "chaos" I call freedom.

 

There are other things that CoH does that I also see as providing superior QoL gameplay to players over other MMO's and it's why I'm still here.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Oubliette_Red

[Glacier Peak]

There is no holy trinity in CoH.

[ForeverLaxx]

I've been playing this game since 2004 and at no point did I ever see anything resembling the "holy trinity" manifest in-game. Yes, there were players I referred to as "confused" who tried to force Tanks and Empaths on every team they made, but this was more often just a waste of effort when any kind of Defender/Controller support and Tank/Scrapper would get the job done for standard missions if they were particularly insistent that these roles be represented directly.

TFs at that time were a different story and you probably wanted someone who take a lot of punishment without as much support assistance, but that didn't stop all-Blaster teams from rolling in and taking out the AV despite said team dying nearly as often as the foes they were blowing up.

 

All of that is to say... I don't know what you thought you experienced back in Ye Olden Days, but it doesn't jive with my experience and my experience is the reason I'm still here at all.

Edited September 23, 2023 by ForeverLaxx

[FFFF]

Back in the day, I used to go out of my way to avoid players advertising themselves as a "healer". It told me that you didn't know how to play your AT. After multiple team ups with Empathy defenders who only took their heals and skipped out of Fortitude and Clear Mind, I only played with Empaths who I knew personally. It wasn't just Empaths either. Worst was a Rad defender who only had their area heal and the full medicine pool.

 

I like that you can use a lot of different combinations of ATs to put together a successful team. I like you have hybrid ATs like Warshades, Masterminds, Fortunatas, etc. Some of my best experiences (and I think this goes for a lot of vets) is when an oddball mishmash of characters synergizes so well that they smash through content.

 

I think you have some points that the game difficulty needs to be adjusted to create more utilization of support ATs and that power creep has trivialized what used to be hard content. However, where you and I disagree is that I don't think bringing back dependence on the trinity is the solution for the problems you mention.

[Psyonico]

To my knowledge, the holy Trinity was never "needed" in CoH.  Mind you, I started in i6, so I don't know about the early days, but with the exception of fringe content, healers always took a back seat to (de)buffers, which is not the way a Trinity game works.

 

Additionally, and someone who was around before me can correct me if I'm wrong, controllers used to be able to lock down every spawn with their AoE hold, then Jack decided people didn't like playing City of Statues and AoE holds got their durations and recharges nerfed.

 

Tankers used to herd entire maps, that wasn't because of healers.

 

[FFFF]

4 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

To my knowledge, the holy Trinity was never "needed" in CoH.  Mind you, I started in i6, so I don't know about the early days, but with the exception of fringe content, healers always took a back seat to (de)buffers, which is not the way a Trinity game works.

 

Additionally, and someone who was around before me can correct me if I'm wrong, controllers used to be able to lock down every spawn with their AoE hold, then Jack decided people didn't like playing City of Statues and AoE holds got their durations and recharges nerfed.

 

Tankers used to herd entire maps, that wasn't because of healers.

 

 

Agree. In fact, in many situations, it was suboptimal. You would really miss that rad defender if facing a tough AV.

[Ulysses Dare]

I played CoH from around Issue 2 until sunset. The game never revolved around the "holy trinity". There were always some people who thought it did; who wouldn't move an inch until their team had a tank and a "healer" (usually meaning an Emp). But most of us just rolled with whatever and it worked just fine.

[lemming]

Thumbs up for a thoughtful post, even if I disagree with it.

 

played since Beta and didn't really see a Holy Trinity.  I saw people advocating for team composition, but that was also when if you weren't an Empath defender, you'd get passed over if playing a different defender. 

 

I like that you can put together any composition and tackle 90% of the content, or do solo stuff when you just want to chill.  Also this makes it so that sub-optimal builds can be played.

[Veracor]

I am a tank main.  I live to tank.  I spend 99% of my time here on my tank.  I justify this preference by analyzing my gameplay to try to be the best possible tank my team could ask for.  My hobby of being punched in the face is often marginalized by Destiny and the high levels of player power, but moving the team quickly and controlling aggro on more than one group is still useful.

 

Tank/nuke/support is a trinity that exists among a small section of players.  It isn't enforced due to the inherent low difficulty of this game, and it isn't enjoyed by most as it invalidates many ATs and powersets, but the speed and power of a trinity-focused team far outclasses the hodgepodge of other ATs you usually see in a team.  An organized tank (be it a Tanker, Brute, or Scrapper), a Fire Blaster, and a Cold Corruptor can carry whatever the rest of the team is through the majority of task forces, and it becomes very apparent in iTrials when the league splits up for badges.

 

That said, I don't think the trinity should be required or even leaned into for future design.  When you look at 4-star Aeon runs for example, the number of compositions available for a time-efficient run are slim due to Barrier chains greatly narrowing the possibilities.  It sucks if a new piece of content comes out and your main/badger/whatever can't contribute well, or even participate to any unique effect, because the content is so skewed towards a small selection of powersets.  If the trinity should ever be designed for, then it needs to be done in some way as to not say "better luck next time" to the majority of powerset combinations -- especially at this point in the game's life when people have long settled on their character choices.

 

I do feel bad for the people that wanted to be healers in this game, though.  It's a legit role in other games, but here if players are at least moderately aware of their surroundings then there's almost no situations for a healer to shine over another buffer or debuffer.  This was different very early in the game's life when player power levels (especially enhancements) were much lower, and thus healing was much more on par with other methods of support.  Perhaps the nostalgia towards the holy trinity comes from this moreso than the meta that the trinity design actually causes in gameplay.

[Spaghetti Betty]

Nope. I don't believe there was ever a "Holy Trinity" either. I've been playing since release as well, and if anything there was more of a "Holy Triangular Pyramid". The base is made up of 3 points: Damage, Support, and Crowd Control. It didn't always necessitate "heals" or "tank", and if any combination of these 3 points were strong enough to reach the tip of the pyramid, you had a successful team. I think the major difference that might have affected viewpoints was that powerset combos were more restrictive across the ATs, defining their "roles" a little more rigidly. The game has always been about variety in team compositions.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Spaghetti Betty

[Without_Pause]

All support teams laugh at the idea CoH was ever about the Holy Trinity. You might have wanted it or needed it, but many of us absolutely went against it. 

[Ringo]

Kudos to this thread.  I don't agree with the premise, but it has made me realize that while I personally eschewed "healers" and generally avoided people who declared themselves as such, I've never once looked at how the game must appear to them.  That's led me to having very little empathy (hah) for those who think having a "healer" is important and their gameplay experience.

 

My apologies to the "healer" crowd.  I never said we couldn't coexist, but I definitely acted like we couldn't.  And I can now see how easily that could turn into a detrimental CoX experience, which is the opposite of what I value in the CoX community.  My bad.

 

As far as the devs and the evolution of the game  - I personally don't believe there was as much as a push for killing the Holy Trinity as there was an interest in making as many powersets and builds viable.  Combine the smoothing out of low performing builds versus the higher performing builds, plus the introduction of IOs and Incarnates leading to incredible power creep, and you now have a game where every build can be viable and self-sufficient.  Which, naturally, mutes the reactive healer playstyle designed to shore up weaknesses - because there aren't any weaknesses to shore up.  Instead the MinMax optimal strategy is to use buff/debuff powers as force multipliers to utilize the power creep each build can leverage.

 

Personally that's a thing I have enjoyed.  But that doesn't mean everyone does, or should.  And I think the availability of doing content in a "No IO, No Incarnates" mode would possibly lead to players who use that mode to have more structured team composition and more complexity in how the team works together.

 

 

[Verfall]

Other have already stated it, but yeah, this game never had the "Holy Trinity". It had inklings of it, but that was more of an "old mmo mindset". All the content could be done with any mix of toons. Did leaning towards trinity make some stuff more easier? Yeah. A well balanced team can make any content trivial. But the sheer beauty of the fact that I could do almost anything with a mishmash of god only knows what toons was why this game was so damn beloved.

 

The fact any toon could solo was also an amazing thing. Were some slow to do so? Of course. But with patience and practice any toon could solo 85% of the content, probably more now.

 

The best part of City of Heroes, the reason so many of us loved it, could be summed in one sentence, "F@k your Trinity and F@k your team, I'm a goddamn super hero!"

[Snarky]

I tend to run villain compatible.  heh.

 

Exactly what was this "Holy Trinity" on Red...or, erm, unholy Trinity? that the game designers (according to OP) created this game around.  Or is the argument by issue 2 all the "other gamers" ruined it and so the Devs cowered in fear and changed everything before redside?

[Glacier Peak]

There are roles in this game, though - and not just in PvE, but also for PvP. That is the damage dealer role and the support role, (and in less organized or more friendly settings the disruption role). 

 

Edit: And these roles can be filled by any powerset/archetype combo - it really comes down to who can click the buttons fast enough (regarding PvP specifically).

Edited September 23, 2023 by Glacier Peak

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

There is no holy trinity in CoH.

 

Untrue.  Unless we are talking really difficult content, the trinity is me, myself, and I.

[Ananke]

I honestly feel that COH does have a sense of trinity, it's just that instead of healers it's support debuffers and buffers. On the other hand, most content is so easy that you don't need to worry about it but if you're lining up to do 4* TFs, the roles are especially obvious. Sure, you could go without but why would you? ice/cold corrs, ill/rads, fire/kins, /FF, nature defenders, among others, are all really good.

[Psyonico]

8 minutes ago, Ananke said:

I honestly feel that COH does have a sense of trinity, it's just that instead of healers it's support debuffers and buffers. On the other hand, most content is so easy that you don't need to worry about it but if you're lining up to do 4* TFs, the roles are especially obvious. Sure, you could go without but why would you? ice/cold corrs, ill/rads, fire/kins, /FF, nature defenders, among others, are all really good.

Except that with everything but the hardest content you're actually better off with a full team of (de)buffers than you are a balanced "Trinity" team.

[TheOtherTed]

Full disclosure - I joined after I6, and I have no idea what the game was "really" like before then.

 

That said, I'll offer an alternate hypothesis:  The perception of "chaos" vs the supposedly ideal alternative may have more to do with the tactical thinking (or lack thereof, or tactical thinking that looks like a lack thereof) of teammates than in any structural elements of the game.  I suggest this for two reasons.  First, I've seen a lot of messy, stupid "chaos" in MMOs that have much more rigid trinity elements baked into their design.  Second, in the cases in which I've seen situations go sour in this game, whether "live" or currently, trinity gameplay would likely not have saved them.

 

I was going to provide some anecdotes from this and other games, but I won't, because 1) they're anecdotal, 2) we could all probably dig up a few with a bit of thought, and 3) it's past my bedtime.  I may be in more of a mood to humble-brag tomorrow.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by TheOtherTed
Spelling, alright? I said I'm tired. Back off! (smiley face (sort of))

[Ananke]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

Except that with everything but the hardest content you're actually better off with a full team of (de)buffers than you are a balanced "Trinity" team.

 

that would be why I said "most content is super easy" and implied that comp is irrelevant

[Kaika]

As someone who has played since "Issue 0" I can assure you that this game never "needed" a holy trinity on teams. Many players just thought they did. Early on players were understandably considerably worse at the game, there was nothing quite like CoH, and they didn't have nearly the info that we have today. In these early days players turned too emps in particular as it was very easy to understand compared to the other support sets and other games had taught them that "healing is needed". For sure players could understand that a force field bubble reduces damage, but not by how much or how it even did it. Comparatively Empathy was very easy to understand, you get a big green number and your HP goes up by that number. One of my oldest memory of this game was playing a FF/dark def, slotted for def and -to-hit. From the moment I would join teams they would simply stop taking damage, as nothing was even hitting them, this would almost inevitably lead to someone telling the emp on the team, who hasn't had anything to heal since I joined "GREAT HEALS!", and it was one of the most eye opening experiences I had in this game.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one with this experience, once I realized "healers" weren't really needed, I started running my own teams and experimenting with non "standard" team comps. No tank? No problem! 8 blasters? Everything is dead before they get a chance to hurt you. 8 Defenders? Literally the smoothest team in existence. Just about every comp I could think of worked, an over abundance of one strength could easily cover for the lack of another. Sure you would sometimes need to adjust play style, but you could make basically everything work and even well.

 

 My point is the perception that you needed the "Holy trinity" was not true, but was simply a popular misconception back in those days due to most players haveing little understanding how how the game functioned and sticking to what they understood. Some of the best teams I was ever on back in those days, lacked a tank and a healer. Keep in mind these were the days of a single fire tanker, herding entire maps into a dumpster and burning the whole map at one time, seriously if you think AE farms are bad, image that with no target/aggro cap. There was alot of broken stuff back then, it's one of the reasons why there were such massive waves of nerfs and they had to revamp the entire enhancement system. Look I'm not gonna pretend like the game hasn't gotten easier, because it has, but the game as it was on release wouldn't have lasted this long and become beloved enough that the player base still keeps it alive after it was shut down, without changes. Over the years the game started to lean more into it's unique aspects and power fantasy, and while it did lead to the game becoming a easier, I think it was a good choice, even if they over did it a bit. In just about any other game of it's a era, a healer, tank and DPS can crawl methodically through a dungeon, but CoH was the only game were you can throw a team of DPS at a army of enemies, with the strategy of "blow them up before they blow us up" and it would work, and it's a major part of the reason I love this game so much.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Riot Siren

[biostem]

I think Goblin Slayer put it best:  "Imagination is a weapon.  Those who lack it are first to die".