Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #47: Hard Mode (A discussion on advanced difficulty levels)

[SeraphimKensai]

Hello again folks. This week the conversation segues to hard mode content.

 

What has your experience been with running content at advanced difficulty levels (one star and up)? Do you think advanced difficulty causes imbalance regarding powersets/AT choices, if so why? How often do you utilize the extra difficulty features for TFs such as enhancements do nothing, enemies biffed, players debuffed, etc? Are there any TFs or trials that you would love to see get a hard mode option, if so which ones and why? What do you think about incarnate choices for hard mode content, is there enough need to promote incarnate diversity?

 

As always thanks for playing.

[Greycat]

*Watches hard mode TFs get speedruns.*

 

Personally... well, the answer gets split into two categories.

 

As far as the choices for enemies buffed, etc? Other than the timer or number of deaths, I don't know that I've ever seen them used. People might solo with them for a badge or something, but they're sure not advertised if there's going to be a TF with them activated.

 

If we're talking actual "Hard mode" multi-star whatever? I tend to just skip them these days. There seems to be a choice of them being speedrun, so people are just bouncing to what *has* to be done like overcaffeinated monkeys on crack to get the prismatics and other rewards in as little time as possible, or they're being run by people who INSIST you MUST BE RIGHT HERE and do EXACTLY THIS to where you wonder why you're bothering playing instead of just giving them control of your system, or the *most* fun... both. None of that interests me, so... *shrugs*

[Spaghetti Betty]

Woo!

 

As someone who runs Advanced Difficulty TFs daily, I absolutely adore them. I've ran starred ITFs up, down, around, forwards, backwards, and sideways with every different kind of team comp imaginable since it was released! I run starred ASFs pretty often too, but not nearly as much. It's like comparing a lake to an ocean.

 

I can personally attest to the fact that even a 4* ITF can be conquered by sheer tactical knowledge and preserverance in 99.9% of cases (with the caveat that everyone has a fully decked out build). You can join the Master ITF channel if you're looking to dip your toes into this kind of stuff! Although it's a bit quiet right now, but I'm looking to change that. They gave me big boots recently

 

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Do you think advanced difficulty causes imbalance regarding powersets/AT choices, if so why?

 

Only slightly. If anything, it only made the real winners stick out more, but there is no reason to bar anyone from entry into Hard Mode. Good players matter way more. There's also a somewhat prevalent notion going around that "control is useless" is Hard Mode, but I find that's only really relegated to the ITF, where mobs were given a blanket mag 10 protection to mez (excluding Surgeons) instead of their immunity shout. Anything can work!

 

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How often do you utilize the extra difficulty features for TFs such as enhancements do nothing, enemies biffed, players debuffed, etc?

 

I would probably use them more if I could get people on board!

 

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Are there any TFs or trials that you would love to see get a hard mode option, if so which ones and why?

 

Hard Mode DFB!

 

In all seriousness, I would like to see all of them get the treatment at some point, but my biased choice is Katie Hannon. I love that TF.

 

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think about incarnate choices for hard mode content, is there enough need to promote incarnate diversity?

 

Well, the big stinker is Barrier. How many see MUST HAVE T4 BARRIER when a Hard Mode run is being announced? It really is a bandaid fix for the PUG roulette. The easiest way to reduce the most incoming damage is to have capped DEF and RES most of the time. 6-7 Barriers and an Incan or two is the most optimal setup, but I've seen oddball combinations work as well. 1 Rebirth can have massive value if heals on the team are lax. An Ageless is great if there aren't any Recovery buffers on the team. And also, this stuff only really matters on 3* and up! Bring whatever you want on lower difficulties!

 

That being said, Destiny is really the only choice that gets picked apart constantly since they can make or break a team. Everything else is essentially minmax fluff.

[arcane]

Because only a couple of discord servers run these daily, and because I prefer to only get on discord with good people, I’ve mostly stopped doing 4* content. It was fun while it lasted though.

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What has your experience been with running content at advanced difficulty levels (one star and up)?

 

None.

 

4 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Do you think advanced difficulty causes imbalance regarding powersets/AT choices, if so why? How often do you utilize the extra difficulty features for TFs such as enhancements do nothing, enemies biffed, players debuffed, etc? Are there any TFs or trials that you would love to see get a hard mode option, if so which ones and why? What do you think about incarnate choices for hard mode content, is there enough need to promote incarnate diversity?

 

Since I don't participate in "advanced difficulty level" content, I have no idea.

[macskull]

I've done a few PuG 4* runs and have decided they're too hit-or-miss to be worth my time. I don't know if I'm looking an an hour or three hours when I start, which isn't an acceptable range of time since the completion rewards don't change based on how quickly (or not) you finish. Yeah, sure, I could get a handful of PaPs, but my care level about costumes is approximately zero and if I did want one of the prestige costumes I could easily just buy the PaPs instead. Aeon's nice because you can gamble at a 500m inf enhancement, but I can also just do the SF at default difficulty and finish it in like 30 minutes with a team of randoms.

 

Re: task force/flashback difficulty settings - until I get some sort of additional reward from using them I'm going to continue to not use them.

[Snarky]

My 2 inf.  It sucks.  Not in that wonderful vampiric way either.  

 

Hard Mode (and the incredible rewards) create a two tier system of people.  Those who run the stuff, and those who cannot or will not.  This divides player resources (people) which we are short on.  Then the rewards further divide the community into haves/have nots.

 

To anyone who would argue the "shiny new hard difficulty" keeps better players interested.... a few months after the hard mode came out the entire leadership and guild of Cosmic Council departed for other places.  AFTER spanking the hard mode content into the ground AND manipulating the new economy like a room full of Warren Buffet clones.

[Clave Dark 5]

I can see that you need a hard mode after you've given everyone unlimited IOs (essentially).  I don't enjoy min/maxing or (essentially) twitch-gaming, so I'm often not really up to the challenge, after having gone along on a couple of one-stars.  Not my thing, you guys have fun.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Clave Dark 5

[furniturepolish]

I'd love to try a hard or a starred something at some point but I dont have a character juiced enough, I don't think. only comment I can really make is that I can tell from the outside that barrier is a must and that the PUG scene is miniscule. I think one person runs frequent pugs, right? JJANG I believe. 

[Snarky]

9 hours ago, furniturepolish said:

I'd love to try a hard or a starred something at some point but I dont have a character juiced enough, I don't think. only comment I can really make is that I can tell from the outside that barrier is a must and that the PUG scene is miniscule. I think one person runs frequent pugs, right? JJANG I believe. 

Look up Spaghetti Betty (2nd reply) who is a top notch gamer and crazy enough to organize such things.

[furniturepolish]

32 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Look up Spaghetti Betty (2nd reply) who is a top notch gamer and crazy enough to organize such things.

I just might once I have a character zhuzhed up enough and ready to go

[Uun]

I've run both ASFs and ITFs from 1* to 4*, but I do them infrequently. From a time commitment/enjoyment standpoint, I think 2* is my sweet spot. I prefer ITF largely because I find ASF too gimmicky.

[SeraphimKensai]

Personally I really like them because I'm a min maxer at heart. The issue with them that I have however is I have a 1 year old so I usually don't have the time to do them that often, basically if my daughter is asleep is my window to play and that gets eaten into by doing chores and such as well.

 

I really like the ITF, but it gets overplayed as well. The ASF is pretty cool as it's ultimately a player made strike force after the game died and it's pretty decent overall. I do like running it as DSync IOs are pretty cool, and yeah you can hit the jackpot on some of them.

 

I do enjoy the challenge of them and hope that other TFs/SFs get similar treatment, including lvl 50 hard mode versions of lower lvl TFs.

That would want to ensure that any AT/powerset would be welcomed given design elements and that it's not just barrier cheese mode as I'm a big fan of taking things like ageless radial, or rebirth, or clarion radial as well.

 

The advanced options for TFs don't often get used outside of the requirements for Master of runs, but I did have a blast with a group about a year ago running a classic Position TF via Ouroboros where we were under debuff, mobs were buffed, and our enhancements didn't do anything. Yes there were a ton of deaths, but we were laughing about guessing who would die next on discord. Good times.

 

I also don't really care about PAPs either as I can make some pretty epic costumes already. That said I do think that higher difficulty content should have higher chances of IO/salvage drop and increased reward merits as that would give people a justified reason for doing harder content aside of just being gluttons for punishment.

Edited September 29, 2023 by SeraphimKensai

[drbuzzard]

I think the hard mode content is a fine addition to the game. It gives the people who like challenge something to enjoy. 

 

I've done a number of runs at them (mostly ITFs). The main thing I've learned is that a PUG 4* is a recipe for frustration. Of course because people have run too many disasters of those leaving too many people utterly uninterested. It's a sad example of people wanting to fly before they can crawl. PUGs should be doing the hard mode step by step starting at the lowest setting so people understand the hazards. 

 

Of course them being difficult means people want coordination via discord, which I dislike, so I don't do many. 

 

Suppose I should address the questions:

What has your experience been with running content at advanced difficulty levels (one star and up)?

 

At the lower stars they are reasonable places to learn and get a feel for it. However people never seem to do 1 star, and 2 stars are rare. Every wants to dive into the deep end and do 4 star. I actually missed when the system burst on the scene as I was taking a break, so I missed the initial rush. 

 

Do you think advanced difficulty causes imbalance regarding powersets/AT choices, if so why?

 

I've seen people with all manner of builds do them, and short of gimmick teams of a bad sort doing 4*, it's generally not an issue as long as the play is good and the build is well done. They do tend to encourage a solid stock of buff/debuff on the team to make it likely to succeed. 

 

How often do you utilize the extra difficulty features for TFs such as enhancements do nothing, enemies biffed, players debuffed, etc?

 

I don't. I certainly have no interest in the no enhancement route since it basically tosses my build out the window. The others I have played on teams using them, and they can make it interesting. 

 

Are there any TFs or trials that you would love to see get a hard mode option, if so which ones and why?

 

Might as well do Apex and Tin Mage just to take it to 11. They are already hard, so make them possibly stupid hard. I'd also do the other high level TFs, so Kahn, MLTF, LGTF. I'd also consider the Shard TFs, but only after they get cleaned up. 

 

What do you think about incarnate choices for hard mode content, is there enough need to promote incarnate diversity?

 

They do tend to encourage (as mentioned above) T4 barrier as mandatory, which on a PUG is probably prudent since you cannot anticipate builds. Though a good bubbler on the team does half that already. Add in a sonic, and you're there and people can have other options. I've even seen people get uptight about which interface people use, but that was only on runs where they were trying to beat a record time. In general people don't seem to care which Lore (though even there I've seen calls for BP or Longbow in particular). Judgement and hybrid seem to be left to the individual as not important enough to matter (or perhaps they figure you're smart enough to make the right choice). 

[Etched]

Playin on Torch, mostly in the mornins it is nearly impossible to put a team together to run normal mish let alone +whatever Hard mode. 

 

Also, I rarely take Barrier cause I LOVE END. So Ageless it is 99.999% of the time. Can't really fight if you have no End to do it with.

 

So it is a simple "I don't run them."

 

@Etched

[Uun]

Forgot to mention it earlier, but I've run the Old School Challenge version of the LRSF a few times (this disables incarnate powers, set bonuses and super inspirations and returns the Vindicators and Freedom Phalanx to lvl 54). Not really advanced difficulty, but still challenging and a lot of fun.

[kelika2]

im scared and dont do them

but we should relocate DFB DIB badges elsewhere to avoid level 1 fighting or scaring people off the server when someone has a meltdown in multiple chats because a cadaver died

[Veracor]

Old School LRSF is a boring slog in my opinion, but I like the two hard mode TFs introduced so far -- those are quality pieces of content for SGs and groups of friends to organize for.  However, 4-star is not PUG-friendly.  4-star is something with actual difficulty for already-established groups that take the time to reflect on their gameplay and builds and make the effort to improve.  99% of the content in this game can be PUG'd or soloed, so it's nice to have something that can actually kill that one player who always runs off and tries to speedrun a mission without their team.

 

If I had one complaint about the hard modes, it would definitely be the number of unskippable cutscenes, especially in Aeon where the cutscenes are literally just monologues that don't handle or disguise any entity movement or spawning.  That number (for repeatable content such as task forces) should always be zero if everyone on the team has seen them already, much like how BAF and Keyes work.

 

Also, the argument of "Splitting an already-small playerbase" isn't really a thing in my anecdotal experience, as (1) The people who choose to run hard modes weren't going to be joining random PUGs or MSRs anyways and (2) You're splitting these players off from a block of content that can be 99% soloed.  This might not be necessarily be true for everyone, but it is what I have observed with the majority of hard mode enjoyers.

 

...

 

Related tangent: I don't mind when someone says "I can't do it" because of timezones or because of not knowing enough people.  But it irritates me when someone says "I refuse to do it" because there's literally nothing holding them back from learning a game like this and getting better at it.  This isn't an RTS where there's APM and peripheral vision checks, nor is it an FPS where there's aiming and hearing checks.  A player that can't navigate high speeds in maps can still be a good player in a team by learning game mechanics and to hit Barrier when the leader calls for it, and a player with visual disability can still use macros and follow commands to target and position correctly.  Don't lock yourself behind the mindset that you refuse to do something because it's too hard or you're too old.  Learn, self-criticize, and adapt -- don't use video games merely as a way to wallow after a bad day at work.  All games are systems, and there is glory to be had in truly understanding what makes them tick!

[Seed22]

I view HM as not great content. I've played all of the starred difficulties, and honestly after 2* it just feels like stat boost with mechanics that can be almost ignored completely (minus the body snatchers from ITF) through barrier cycling. I feel like the difficulty is over embellished by most of the playerbase (see my comment on it being stat boost), and while the rewards are pretty good, it's still a 2-3 hour tedious slog outside of SG runs (if you're not lucky enough to have an SG, you'll probably be stuck on either a 3hr run or never running one to begin with). Props to HM though, it got me trying more mechanics driven games with mechanics driven difficulty and it was like night and day (to be fair, CoH is much older and they did what they could with what they had but still), so I literally can't play HM anymore as I'll be thinking of those more mechanics driven games and longing for something that can't happen.

 

I am very glad those who asked for this got some content to play through, but I personally find HM to be just 'meh'. As far as the incarnates situation? PuGs cycling barrier was to be expected (though SGs do the same thing, especially if they're trying to speed the TF). What I'm horribly disappointed in is the lack of inclusion of most powersets. While sure you shouldn't and probably won't be kicked for bringing say, archery, you can bet your bottom dollar unless they're friends of yours they'd of preferred a fire blaster or another cold corr. I personally also hate that most speed groups are just 5 corrs, 2 blasters and a scrapper or tank. Feels like the cookie cutter crap you'd see in WoW. I get that's typical optimal run for things but it's still pretty gross to see for endgame content.

[High_Beam]

I don't do hard mode because I am not interested.  I don't have a problem with those that do.

 

I think every Task Force/Strike Force/Trial should have the option though, it seems like a simple way to slightly refresh old content.

 

Obviously I would prefer a content refresh or a revamp on Tasks Forces but hey, a Beam can dream.

 

 

[WumpusRat]

On 9/28/2023 at 11:51 AM, Spaghetti Betty said:

 

In all seriousness, I would like to see all of them get the treatment at some point, but my biased choice is Katie Hannon. I love that TF.

I've joked about this one a few times on that TF.

"Hard Mode Katie Hannon, featuring the brand new badge: 50 Times the Victor!"

[nihilii]

I like Hard Mode. Soloing 1-2 stars and multiboxing 3-4 stars is a great challenge that requires the best tactics out of me. Each tier change feels noticeably different and requires a different approach.

 

I haven't done one in a team yet, so I'm hardly in a position to comment on powerset balance. But I haven't been able to notice an imbalance that wasn't mirrored in the original game yet. Perhaps it is a question of the extra stress making PuGs close ranks around easy winners.

 

All in all, I think I enjoy 1 star the most, for the extra powers enemies get and little bump in difficulty without changing the game completely. Although I also like 2 stars for the extra carrot of merit rewards when defeating AVs.

 

It would be great to see the concept expanded to other TFs.

[Snarky]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:06 AM, Uun said:

Forgot to mention it earlier, but I've run the Old School Challenge version of the LRSF a few times (this disables incarnate powers, set bonuses and super inspirations and returns the Vindicators and Freedom Phalanx to lvl 54). Not really advanced difficulty, but still challenging and a lot of fun.

This I enjoy.  Prime gaming

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

I've joked about this one a few times on that TF.

"Hard Mode Katie Hannon, featuring the brand new badge: 50 Times the Victor!"

And a “rescuee” who will beeline for the biggest boss on the map.  When (if ) that one goes down races through caves to find #2…repeat endlessy

[Silver Lancer]

I like the Hard Mode content. The new ITF is a lot of fun and it brings out the best/worst in some players.

 

Has the idea of a Death Match Mode ever been explored?

 

Team wipe on map= permanent removal of toon. 🏴‍☠️

 

The rewards & badge would have to reflect the ultimate risk.