Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control

[The Curator]

New Powerset - Arsenal Control

 

New primary for Controllers and Dominators

• Armed with a state-of-the-art multipurpose assault rifle, you are able to deliver a wide variety of payloads to control your enemies and render them incapable of responding.

 

Powers:

•   Tranquilizer Ranged, DMG(Toxic), Foe Sleep

  • The Tranquilizing Dart is the perfect tool to sideline a single foe. It deals some toxic damage and can render the target unconscious, allowing you to focus on more important targets. The target remain asleep for some time, but will awaken if attacked. 

  • The Sleep component of this power is Auto Hit against regular enemies, but a To Hit check is required to against AVs and players, as well as to make secondary effects apply.

•   Sleep Grenade Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Smash), Foe Sleep
  • The Sleep Grenade can be launched at long range from beneath the barrel of your Assault Rifle. It releases a cloud of gas that will make enemies drowsy, slow, and fall asleep. 
•   Cryo Freeze Ray  Ranged, Minor DMG(Cold), Foe Hold
  • The Cryo Freeze Ray encases your foe in a block of ice, holding him helpless in place for a while and dealing some cold damage.
•   Liquid Nitrogen  Ranged, Target DoT(Smashing), -Fly

  • The Liquid Nitrogen dispenser can spray a target location with liquid nitrogen creating a large patch of ice. Those caught in the patch of ice are dramatically slowed, take cold damage over time, tend to fall down and will be unable to jump.

•   Cloaking Device  Toggle: Self Stealth, +DEF(All)

  • This Cloaking Device is the ultimate in infiltration technology. It uses an LCD body coating to become all but impossible to detect. While concealed you can only be seen at very close range. If you attack while concealed, you will be discovered. Even if discovered, you are hard to see but will retain some of your Defense bonus to all attacks.

•   Smoke Canister Ranged (Location AoE), Foe -Perception, -To Hit, Confuse
  • The Smoke Canister is a powerful infiltration tool. Fling it at a target location and it will quickly cover the area in smoke. While engulfed within this smoke, most enemies will not be able to see past normal melee range, although some may have better perception. If the villains are attacked, they will become confused and might attack their allies.
•   Flash Bang  Disorient, -To Hit
  • The Flash Bang Grenade is ideal to disorient a group of enemies. Even enemies that are not disoriented will have their chance to hit reduced.
•   Tear Gas  Ranged (Targeted AoE), Foe Hold, -DMG
  • The Tear Gas canister is the ultimate crowd control tool, it will make enemies choke and unable to take any action as well as debuffing their damage output.
•   Gun Drone  Build Gun Drone: Ranged, DMG(Lethal)
  • The Gun Drone is the perfect companion in the field. It has an extremely fast fire rate and is equipped with a customized tracking system. Once locked on, the Drone will continue to unload a volley of lead into the target until it is destroyed. Enemies hit by the drone, as well as those near it, will prioritize attacking it over it's owner. The Drone is armored and can take significant amounts of damage.

 

[Dispari]

From playing this set a bunch, my observations on it are as follows:

 

#1: The set relies on no less than 3 area-targeted patches, but has no way to keep enemies IN those patches. What it needs most is an AoE immobilize like (almost) every other set has, to keep enemies pinned in location. Otherwise, if enemies move, many of your powers are no longer contributing.

 

#2: The AoE Sleep is a terrible contribution to the set. Sleep is just not good, at all, even in the case where it tics periodically to put people back to sleep. It also makes the level one choice between a sleep and another sleep, so for people who do not care for sleeps at all, they have no choices to make here. It also conflicts with the confuse in the set, and obvious pairings like Arsenal Assault leave DoT patches so even ticcing sleep is not likely to contribute. And I have noticed, powers like Liquid Nitrogen are flagged not to tic on sleeping targets, which is clever, but it means they contribute less as a result. Even its secondary effects could be accomplished by another power (like an AoE immobilize). The set already does KD, confuse, stun, and hold. The sleep is not a good addition, and it fights the entire rest of the set, making it perform worse.

I would say drop it for the AoE immobilize, but if something else has to go, possibly the Cloaking Device as it isn't contributing much in the way of support for the team (though, I like the equivalent power in Illusion and would welcome its inclusion anyway). At the absolute minimum, I would move this down so you can take Cryo Freeze Ray at level 1 and skip all sleep powers.

#3: The Gun Drone is boring and unfun. It's literally just a copy of a power Blasters can get, so it's nothing novel or interesting. If it was some other kind of robot, or had different powers like missiles, or you got two of them (with pushable hitboxes like gremlins/imps get), it would be at least somewhat unique.

This isn't to be entirely negative. I like the idea of a weapon-based control set, and adds more character customization options. It (mostly) pairs well with Arsenal Assault, and should be good at dealing with multiple mobs given all its options. The mez powers the set offers are generally good, especially the smoke grenade. The set does a combination of useful effects from -ToHit to -recharge, and even -DMG.

It could definitely be improved though.

[Exxar]

Umm, I haven't tried this yet... but how is this supposed to set up containment for trollers?

[ScarySai]

My feedback more or less echos Dispari's, but I would like to add the following.

 

1: Smoke Cann is a really cool power conceptually, but it feels like it was designed under the fear of it being too good, like they looked at seeds of confusion and were way too cautious. It does pretty good work on +0, but basically doesn't exist beyond that, nor does it benefit from overpower or dominate.

 

2: Consider replacing the sleep grenade for something closer to trap's poison trap. Massive slow and -regen, chance for vomit. Instantly a better power.

 

 

[Maxzero]

Agree with everything Dispari said.

 

In addition having a 45sec CD Sleep as your second ability is almost a bit of a trap. Since you can pick one of the first 2 abilities if you pick the Sleep Grenade you are actually left with no damaging attacks except Brawl.

 

Also some of the powers have high activation times but below average damage compared to other Control sets. Traq Dart for some reason does less damage then all the ST Immo's the other Control sets get plus a longer cast time then everything except Symphony and Electric. When you combine that how hard it is for Arsenal Control to setup Containment due to lack of Immobilize you looking at some meagre damage numbers.

Edited January 20 by Maxzero

[Lordcamaris]

Could this set also be proliferated as a secondary for Masterminds? It would seem to provide good synergy to Mercs especially and provide a more diversified set of control abilities. 

[Vanden]

16 minutes ago, Lordcamaris said:

Could this set also be proliferated as a secondary for Masterminds? It would seem to provide good synergy to Mercs especially and provide a more diversified set of control abilities. 

 

It's a Control set. Masterminds get Buff/Debuff sets for their secondaries.

[Exxar]

Tranquilizer doesn't put enemies to sleep when I use it on my controller. Tested on hellions and clockwork around Prometheus Park on a level 1-2 character.

Edited January 20 by Exxar

[Psyonico]

35 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

In addition having a 45sec CD Sleep as your second ability is almost a bit of a trap. Since you can pick one of the first 2 abilities if you pick the Sleep Grenade you are actually left with no damaging attacks except Brawl.

 

This is my fear.  I'd suggest swapping the T2 and T3 powers (so you can get a hold at level 1 and no newer players get trapped in the "my only attack has a 45 second recharge" thing.

[MagicalAct]

I don't mind not having a mass immob on it. It's nice having a new set more rely on soft mitigation from the enemies trying to run out. I didn't seem to have problems with them making it out of patches after liquid nitrogen.

 

That being said, if it's not going to have an aoe immob, it needs to be one of the more damaging sets to make up for lack of aoe containment. Flashback is a proc bomb, but tranq needs it's damage numbers fixed to be in line with the st immobs from other sets if not higher. Give Cro Ray a minor slow and allow it to take slow sets so Arsenal could have it's niche as the proc damage set.

 

And if we could have the grenade toss animation for some of the aoe control powers so our heroes could feel more sciencey themselves and less this is my science gun.

Edited January 21 by MagicalAct
Autocorrected proc to process

[Exxar]

8 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

This is my fear.  I'd suggest swapping the T2 and T3 powers (so you can get a hold at level 1 and no newer players get trapped in the "my only attack has a 45 second recharge" thing.

I second this, having a 45-second ability at T2 is asking for trouble.

 

 

The set needs its damage increased to compensate for lack of options for setting up containment. All of its AoE abilities for setting up containment have long recharge and the one with the shortest cooldown will only work for a single tick of damage per fight because it is a sleep. It feels as if this set was designed for dominators without much consideration given to controllers.

[JayboH]

Copied from my other post:

 

Dominator test

Tranquilizer:  Not really a bug, just like other sleeps with damage attached - if you have an Interface slotted with a damage proc they never go to sleep

Cryo Freeze Ray:  when the opponent is defeated it triggers ice sound fx again

Sleep Grenade:  Never says domination under Domination buffs

Gun Drone:  the summon animation is kinda weird at the moment, the way it appears

Why not make a Caltrops Grenade, or heck, swap it for Trip Mine in Arsenal Assault.  Make it deal the same total damage in a quarter of the time with the same slow and fear?  Make it stackable, etc to only a point.
 

Edited January 20 by JayboH

[Frosticus]

I dont inherently dislike patch powers, but dark control has demonstrated that you have the ability to make them work with domination/overpower. So smoke canister should be altered.

 

Otherwise, aoe confuse, aoe disorient, knockdown patch and a robust taunting pet, means I can use this set to great affect.

 

I'll test out tonight though

[InfamousBrad]

I'd go so far as to say that AoE sleep powers should be removed from the game, period, since they overtly do nothing at all if you, or even one other person on your team, has an AoE attack.

[Vinceq98]

One thing I just want to add is that the devs are just so timid with power scaling of these new sets. I mean I get they don't want to make the newest power set the meta but my god it's like they make sure they are always middle or even below average in terms of damage potential. You spent so much time and love designing and creating new power sets only for players to outright ignore them and continue on playing the sets the original devs made. I truly think they need to make these new sets at bare minimum A tier if not S tier when they come out. I rarely see storm blasters or symphony controllers. Or sonic assault dominators. They were built once only to be shelved and forgotten 😭

[JayboH]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

?

Edited, I thought it was overhauled too.

[JayboH]

5 minutes ago, InfamousBrad said:

I'd go so far as to say that AoE sleep powers should be removed from the game, period, since they overtly do nothing at all if you, or even one other person on your team, has an AoE attack.

 

Static Field drains endurance, slows, debuffs recharge, and grants teammates endurance beyond the aoe sleep it provides, which also puts them right back to sleep once woken.

[Judasace]

Sleep is the worst control power in the game. The only decent sleep powers are the ones that do something else, like massive damage or big end drains. Could you at least add a -rech component to these attacks to make them something other than a set mule at best?

 

Even better, change the sleep mechanic completely and make it a percentage chance for the mob to awaken. Say whatever percent of the power's duration is the chance that it will awaken with damage - like if 90% of the sleep time is remaining, then there's a 90% chance it will stay asleep.

 

Overall this set reminds me of Seismic or Storm blast or Symphony control - interesting ideas, but so far outside of the meta that you'll almost never see one over level 20.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20 by Judasace

[Starhammer]

Like many others, my thoughts largely echo what Dispari posted.

I'm not really fond of sleep, but a single gas grenade AOE would be fine for when you want to bypass a group or something. Combining sleep gas with a smoke grenade might be interesting.

I'm not a massive fan of Immobilize either, but it definitely has it's uses, especially if you need to keep a bunch of folks in another AOE. And thematically, this set really needs a big ol' anti-dinosaur net gun. The one from Trick Arrow would fit well.

I don't really like the Cryo Freeze Ray thematically. I don't hate it, but I'd rather see bolas or a glue grenade. It'd be really wonderful if we could choose from a few very different effects for the hold... small net grenade, glue grenade, fire patch, force field, ice block... just pick whatever element/effect suits our character concept best, without impairing the options for other players to go with their own preference... like Swap Ammo, except we can only change it out in the armory (costume creator). That would also be a nice experiment to set precedent for further power customization to many other powers in the future.

[High_Beam]

Now I am going to be in the minority here but I say lean fully into the AoE here.  As others have said, swap out the ST Tranq for an AoE immob.  Grenades by design are not clean weapons; they splash and scatter.  Grenadiers are there for the purpose of infantry suppression and to aid the rest of a fire team to maneuver.  Let this new power set flourish as just that.  The problem with sleep that everyone points to is that it is rendered moot on a team or when damage is applied.  If the sleep reapplies (like with Static Field) then its totally workable, especially if you add the AoE immob.  Just give em a Wide area Web Grenade so it can be applied between Liquid Nitrogen.  But even if the sleep power is rendered no sleep, SO WHAT!  Let a new set be a new set, not a full copy.

 

And lets add the two cryo/freeze doodle powers.  You are hosing them down like a cone from flamethrower (animation recycle?) but laying a circular patch (Liquid Nitrogen).  Change that to a grenade.  No Spray!  Cryo Freeze Ray, again, call it a Cryo Slug or something.  I repeat - Do not like the Cryo Freeze Ray animation.  Should be a grenade like the rest.  If not then please remove the lingering icy glow on the barrel.  Not a good look.  Lingers when other powers fire.

 

I tested with traps as a secondary knowing that Acid mortar was going to negate sleep at times.  Did this for about an an hour at level 20, leaning mostly into all of the primaries (less tear gas and gun drone) and running around Talos aggroing +2/+3 small clusters solo (3 minion or 1 Lt 2 minion).  Initially done with ZERO enhancements slotted and used ZERO inspiration.  Attack chain was relatively good (endurance of course) but I was able to avoid death taking out trios of +3 minions (warrior, Tsoo).  Judicially cycling sleep, Liquid Nitro and Disorient then working the held target down got it done.  I imagine on a Dom the kill speed will accelerate, will be testing later.  Recharge reduction was added a little later which took the danger edge off the attack chain.

 

 

[StarkWhite]

I'm pretty sure the AOE Sleep *does* get re-applied, unless that got taken back out at some point when I wasn't paying attention.

[Riverdusk]

Was my first reaction as well.  Forced to choose between two sleeps as your only level 1 power choices?  One with a 45 second recharge?  Like, what?  At the least swap the regular ST hold so that it is a level 1 option (like almost all other control sets).

 

It is almost like they knew a lot of people would want to skip the sleeps (as usual) and are trying to force us to take one.  😁

 

Edit:  Just double checked.  The longest recharge of any other level 1 control power choices is 9 seconds (blind).  Throwing a 45 second recharge power in as a level 1 power choice option is a definite newb trap.  I can just see a new controller player coming in, choosing that (and not realizing about P2W attack options) and having only brawl and a heal and this power they can only use once every 45 seconds.  I think I'd quit and never look back.

Edited January 20 by Riverdusk

[Calamity Cain]

Lemme just throw this in, as a relatively mechanically-ignorant player. Sleep seems like it'd be useful for soloing/stealthing. And teams that don't rush through the mission like junkies jonesing for a fix. Which...of course...is most teams, let's be real. XD

So I have to echo the sentiments of these other dudes and dudettes. Sleep seems like a fun mechanic on paper, but I've almost NEVER seen it used in a PvE context. There's better mezzes out there, and sleep is so easy to interrupt...

I think the solution here isn't necessarily a new power - its a revamp of Sleep overall, as a mechanic. It's damage mitigation and control that ends at the drop of a hat. I dunno what to do about that, but the mark of a good game is one where no part of the buffalo goes to waste. I believe Sleep could be pushed to be something at least kinda useful in the main.


Buuuut it seems...greedy to ask for that with all these new toys, so here's an idea:

Make Sleep Grenade into something like Knockout Gas. What does it do? It not only puts some mobs to sleep, but it slows and/or stuns. Like, some enemies go right to bed, others get groggy and ineffectual.

That sounds a lot more useful to me. What do you guys think?

[Psyonico]

21 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

I'm pretty sure the AOE Sleep *does* get re-applied

That is accurate, I just tested this.  It's a cool mechanic. (yes, I know electric control has had this)  It also has some -recharge in it according to in game power description

 

I want to do some more testing with Liquid Nitrogen.  I ran a mission and the first group I put it on got knocked down once total, that doesn't seem right.  The second group I cast it on it worked like a normal knockdown patch.

[Neuronia]

---

Maybe swap the single target Level 1 Sleep with a knockback power of some sort, some sort of grenade that's player based area of effect and knocks foes back, I don't know...it seems too much overlap here but the set is super, super sweet overall.