Focused Feedback: Various Power Updates

[Captain Powerhouse]

9 hours ago, Mezmera said:

The splash damage seems to be a set amount which I would like to see a little higher since you can't enhance it,

 

The splash damage inherits enhancements set in the power.

[fiend]

21 hours ago, fiend said:

It appears that Bonfire for Fire Control has been affected by the epic changes, but the change is presently unlisted here. Whether it's an unintentional change from altering those, or intentional and just slipped the list, KB->KD is knocking enemies much less to a drastic degree, removing the power's mitigation/control potential.

 

Videos to demonstrate here - used fire cages and bonfire on +4x8 Circle of Thorns with my fire controller:

Live: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1029958407282761768/1200886475278004334/cityofheroes_GQfY7Z0TuS.webm?ex=65c7cfaf&is=65b55aaf&hm=6e9d57a5b904c11bf6985684f4b724befcb0c569b49ea490ab5046659edb456a&

Beta (BUILD 1 SPECIFICALLY): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1029958407282761768/1200886474829205685/cityofheroes_ghMctrhD3A.webm?ex=65c7cfae&is=65b55aae&hm=297f3b5922912f21f88690f2264e2b8f1ca8874b7593153962ca6b33bd0d6986&

 

I can still see this being a decent pick for the damage on controllers, but it does make fire control quite a bit riskier across the board, especially for a squishier AT like Dominator - something I could also see being intentional, given it was essentially far outshining other control sets with knockdown (i.e. ice slick).

 

(p.s., the fact that Bonfire relies on an IO to even be considered in most cases (except for as a joke power in the vein of Black Hole or Detention Field) is a separate issue worth highlighting, but well out of scope for this thread)

 

Follow-up post with a video from Build 2, same settings: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1029958407282761768/1201209760633065502/cityofheroes_Zn7KsMvtEx.webm?ex=65c8fcc4&is=65b687c4&hm=26af37cc6d484928866ab19c1e64538d946338192966d132c379979cb8bdb265&

 

Like the notes say, it knocks a whole lot more - not as much as the original, but noticeably better from build 1. It's more comparable to some other slip n slide type powers, closer to Freezing Rain's default state.

Edited January 28 by fiend

[drbuzzard]

Finally played the sonic defender I made on test to try out the liquefy change. Still could not get a spot on a team, so I just did the cimeroran  repeat mission intro solo. Went in with it set at +1 x4. Individual spawns were not an issue. I could lay down liquefy, and proceed to beat them all down at a defenderly pace. After they were down, I waited till liquefy was back up (not very long since I was in perma hasten +spiritual core alpha) and repeated the process. One time I got a bit too ambitious and while in the middle of a spawn tossed ion judgment at the rest of the room. That did not end well for me. I went to the hospital, returned and cleared them out at the measured pace of one x4 spawn at a time and it wasn't an issue. I was running with bosses off which no doubt made it much easier. Sonic is really not a soloing set given how many powers need allies to even be used (5 of 9). 

 

The liquefy change is nice, but I think sonic needs more love than this. Other than being the king of handing out resistance to a team (and thus providing less protection than a bubbler), it really shines nowhere else. It's not even king of resistance debuff. Poison, Cold, and trick arrow all debuff a single target just as hard. Poison and trick arrow are also better at the AOE debuffing. 

 

I don't know if I need to note this, but the defender is level 50, and fully tricked out with all the free goodies and incarnate powers. 

Edited January 28 by drbuzzard

[Wravis]

2 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

The liquefy change is nice, but I think sonic needs more love than this. Other than being the king of handing out resistance to a team (and thus providing less protection than a bubbler), it really shines nowhere else. It's not even king of resistance debuff. Poison, Cold, and trick arrow all debuff a single target just as hard. Poison and trick arrow are also better at the AOE debuffing. 

It's not even the king of handing out resist buffing. Pain Dom dishes out the same amount of +resist with one click. And it's easy to make World of Pain permanent. And Electric Affinity has a better mez protect.

Sonic does nothing better than any other powerset.

 

edited because I shouldn’t post while tired. 

Edited January 28 by Wravis

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Wravis said:

It's not even the king of handing out resist buffing. Pain Dom dishes out the same amount of +resist with one click. And it's easy to make World of Pain permanent. And Electric Affinity has a better mez protect.

Umm... no, World of Pain or Faraday Cage do not dish out as much resist buffing as Sonic Dispersion PLUS Sonic Shields. 

[Troo]

28 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

at a defenderly pace.

 

gold

[Uun]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:46 AM, The Curator said:

Mind Control/Telekinesis:

• No longer holds
• Now Immobilizes
• Target cap increased to 16
• Radius increased to 20'
• Recharge increased from 60s to 120s
• Will now keep the targets between 40 and 60 feet from the player
• Will group enemies close to the main target (i.e. "reverse repel" or "pull towards").
• Toggle now lasts a max of 30s before auto-shutdown

Tried this out on my lvl 50 Mind/Psi dominator, which already had the existing version of TK.  While the increased target cap/radius and the distance limit are improvements, particularly the ability to quickly group up a spawn, the change from hold to immobilize essentially requires that you apply another AoE control to avoid being attacked. Overall, not convinced this is an improvement vs. the existing version.

 

I don't have a Mind controller, but the 30s duration/120s recharge suggests that this won't be a viable means of setting up Containment.

[Sorena]

With the new TK power not being a hold anymore, is there a way to make it so it wont break Mass Hypnosis? Since TK does no damage. Otherwise we lose a way to mitigate damage while using TK now that they can attack us.

[TauntingMonk]

K, well... seems my opinions don't matter, feels great.

[LastHumanSoldier]

Just now, TauntingMonk said:

K, well... seems my opinions don't matter, feels great.

Did you put it in the bug forum?

 

[Gemini2099]

6 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Finally played the sonic defender I made on test to try out the liquefy change. Still could not get a spot on a team, so I just did the cimeroran  repeat mission intro solo. Went in with it set at +1 x4. Individual spawns were not an issue. I could lay down liquefy, and proceed to beat them all down at a defenderly pace. After they were down, I waited till liquefy was back up (not very long since I was in perma hasten +spiritual core alpha) and repeated the process. One time I got a bit too ambitious and while in the middle of a spawn tossed ion judgment at the rest of the room. That did not end well for me. I went to the hospital, returned and cleared them out at the measured pace of one x4 spawn at a time and it wasn't an issue. I was running with bosses off which no doubt made it much easier. Sonic is really not a soloing set given how many powers need allies to even be used (5 of 9). 

 

The liquefy change is nice, but I think sonic needs more love than this. Other than being the king of handing out resistance to a team (and thus providing less protection than a bubbler), it really shines nowhere else. It's not even king of resistance debuff. Poison, Cold, and trick arrow all debuff a single target just as hard. Poison and trick arrow are also better at the AOE debuffing. 

 

I don't know if I need to note this, but the defender is level 50, and fully tricked out with all the free goodies and incarnate powers. 

The only other change that should happen with Sonic Resonance is making Sonic Siphon a true Siphon by giving + RES.  

 

Sonic is a much better set now that Liquify is actually up for almost every spawn now or every other spawn.  

[Uun]

23 hours ago, TauntingMonk said:

Did you all look at Gremlins on Controllers yet? Not sure why I'm not getting a response.

You're not getting a response because changes to Gremlins aren't part of the Page 7 release. This is a focused feedback thread specific to the power updates in the release.

[Wravis]

2 hours ago, Gemini2099 said:

The only other change that should happen with Sonic Resonance is making Sonic Siphon a true Siphon by giving + RES.  

 

Sonic is a much better set now that Liquify is actually up for almost every spawn now or every other spawn.  

That doesn't address any of the issues Sonic has. Sonic is weak compared to most other sets, and it's weird they aren't really addressing any of the issues other than Liquefy when they're doing a pass on it.

[stryve]

Finally got to try out Temporal Bomb on  Controller, and overall I do like the power.  Seems to be effective at everything it's suppose to do (buff, debuff, and damage).  Placing it effectively can be tricky, but I have enough soft and hard control on the toon to pull it off consistently.  The second click to detonate after placing is pretty fun too, though that's obviously subjective.

 

I do have a couple questions, though.  First, here does not seem to be any way to see what the actual values for the power are.  In the Enhancement screen, you get percentage change on mouse over. and basically nothing but Recharge and base Accuracy in the Details column.

 

On a related note, Slow Attack Speed is showing as being Enhanced by Recharge Enhancements.  Is that intended?  If so, awesome!  If not, better to learn now than after it goes live.

[Sovera]

8 hours ago, Wravis said:

That doesn't address any of the issues Sonic has. Sonic is weak compared to most other sets, and it's weird they aren't really addressing any of the issues other than Liquefy when they're doing a pass on it.

 

They are doing no more of a pass to Sonic than they are doing a pass for Electric Melee just because Thunderstrike got a fresh new coat of paint.

[Kaballah]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:46 AM, The Curator said:

Various Power Updates

 

Storm Blast

The changes detailed below make Chain Lightning more consistent of an attack, and the AoE output more consistent while keeping both ST and AoE performance the same as previous.

 

While you're tinkering with this set, consider making the location you can summon Storm Cell more permissive, it's really annoying to be constantly hunting for an eligible target location because there's an ineligible object or wall in front of the mouse or "target in air". E.g. the behavior of Teleport's location placement would be fine. 

 

For example, this is really annoying to be told "target is in air"

 

Edited January 29 by Kaballah

[KaizenSoze]

Just now, Kaballah said:

 

While you're tinkering with this set, consider making the location you can summon Storm Cell more permissive, it's really annoying to be constantly hunting for an eligible target location because there's an object or wall in front of the mouse or "target in air". E.g. the behavior of Teleport's location placement would be fine. 

Just curious are you using binds to place the Storm Cell? Binds make it much easier.

 

/bind t powexec_location target "Storm Cell"

Tab to a target in the middle, hit t. Or whatever key you would to bind the power.

[Kaballah]

That's a reasonable workaround for intermediate+ players but the default behavior just sucks, especially for brand new people, of which we have many lately.

[drbuzzard]

16 hours ago, Gemini2099 said:

The only other change that should happen with Sonic Resonance is making Sonic Siphon a true Siphon by giving + RES.  

 

Sonic is a much better set now that Liquify is actually up for almost every spawn now or every other spawn.  

 

 

I can't say I object to this suggestion, but it doesn't address the main issue. Sonic Resonance is a set with a very small bag of tricks. Basically every other set does a wide variety of effects, while sonic has a very, very small toolkit. I agree that the liquefy change improves things to a good degree, but I tested at +1 (given alpha shift, +0). It was completely slotted up so it gave -56.23% to hit debuff. This sounds mighty impressive, and at even level it rather is. What about when you take on the +4s that happen when things are actually tough? Let's slap on that purple patch and see how it drives. 56.23* .48=  .27. Ok, now you're enemies go from base .50 to .23 chance to hit (higher for non minions). That's not bad. You can hand out 55% to most things (ignore psi hole for a sec here). So 45% *.23 = 10.35 % damage.  Let's look at a bubbler. In set they can hand out 39.25% defense before dipping into leadership. This is with just the base 3 shields of course and comes to about the same level of mitigation as the sonic with 3 shields and a not perma T9. Take leadership on the bubbler and we're at softcap and the damage cuts in half. The  bubbler doesn't need to stack a pile of IO bonuses and achieve perma hasten to get this effect. It's a pool power and there you go. Also, since they are defense to everything  (but toxic) they don't have that psi hole and all the packaged debuffs miss as well. This is merely showing that debuffs are much weaker with the purple patch than buffs. FF is a buffing set mostly. Liquefy is pure debuff. At even level liquefy+sonic shields is superior, yes. Then again you don't really need a defender for even level now do you?

 

So if the liquefy change were possible to make permanent (which currently requires the recharge cap) you're at bubbler level mitigation kind of. The power also does a defense debuff (so does the T9 FF bubble), - recharge,  and knocks people down (except Romans now, who seem to have been given weeble capability). The FF T9 offers a bunch of interesting debuffs as well as some debuff resistance for all the effects which managed to hit your softcapped team. It should also be noted that the FF T9 can be permanent with just 100% recharge slotting in the power. 

 

One of the best sonic tricks is rigging sonic repulsion for knockdown, which of course takes an IO for the purpose. This is probably the only interesting effect FF can't achieve (repel being in repulsion field). Of course to mitigate this nice trick, the endurance cost is an expensive toggle plus more cost per target knocked. 

 

Sonic then has the shared with FF useless 'get in the corner child' power (sonic cage), and then clarity which is pretty redundant with sonic dispersion. 

 

I have tricked out level 50 sonic and FF defenders. I know which one can turn a sorry team around and make it plow through things without much trouble at all. That isn't the sonic defender. 

 

Edited January 29 by drbuzzard

[Kai Moon]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:36 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

This is a side effect of the pet now actually inheriting the caster's modifiers. The run speed was likely not listed due to the large number of attributes in the power.

 

Both Freezing Rain and Sleet inherit in Page 7. If reduced slows are a side effect of inheriting, wouldn't both Freezing Rain and Sleet have weaker slows in Page 7?

 

Using Defender as a baseline, only Sleet has weaker slows in Page 7. Freezing Rain's are unchanged.

 

Rechecked on Build 2:

	Recharge	Run Speed	Fly Speed	Jump Speed	Jump Height
Live Defender Freezing Rain	-50%/-30%	-70%/-30%	-60%/-30%	-70%/-30%	-70%/-30%
Build 2 Defender Freezing Rain	-50%/-30%	-70%/-30%	-60%/-30%	-70%/-30%	-70%/-30%
Live Defender Sleet	-40%/-20%	-50%/-20%	-40%/-20%	-50%/-20%	-50%/-20%
Build 2 Defender Sleet	-40%/-20%	-40%/-20%	-40%/-20%	-40%/-20%	-50%/-20%

 

[c0]

Blaster>Devices>Remote Bomb doesn't seem to inherit player stats, not sure if by design?

 

[Player-1]

2 hours ago, c0 said:

Blaster>Devices>Remote Bomb doesn't seem to inherit player stats, not sure if by design?

 

Hello c0,

 

What do you have slotted in remote bomb, and what level enemy were you fighting?

[Lazarillo]

Quick question on the Thunderstrike update (since I don't have any alts to check): on live, as far as I know, some versions of the power (Dominators, Blasters, APPs too maybe?) do Knockback, while some (from the melee sets) do Knockdown.  There's no mention of this being given the same "consistency" pass in the patch notes...has it been, despite this?  And if so, is that particular lack of consistency intended, or simply an oversight?

[Gemini2099]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:38 AM, drbuzzard said:

 

 

I can't say I object to this suggestion, but it doesn't address the main issue. Sonic Resonance is a set with a very small bag of tricks. Basically every other set does a wide variety of effects, while sonic has a very, very small toolkit. I agree that the liquefy change improves things to a good degree, but I tested at +1 (given alpha shift, +0). It was completely slotted up so it gave -56.23% to hit debuff. This sounds mighty impressive, and at even level it rather is. What about when you take on the +4s that happen when things are actually tough? Let's slap on that purple patch and see how it drives. 56.23* .48=  .27. Ok, now you're enemies go from base .50 to .23 chance to hit (higher for non minions). That's not bad. You can hand out 55% to most things (ignore psi hole for a sec here). So 45% *.23 = 10.35 % damage.  Let's look at a bubbler. In set they can hand out 39.25% defense before dipping into leadership. This is with just the base 3 shields of course and comes to about the same level of mitigation as the sonic with 3 shields and a not perma T9. Take leadership on the bubbler and we're at softcap and the damage cuts in half. The  bubbler doesn't need to stack a pile of IO bonuses and achieve perma hasten to get this effect. It's a pool power and there you go. Also, since they are defense to everything  (but toxic) they don't have that psi hole and all the packaged debuffs miss as well. This is merely showing that debuffs are much weaker with the purple patch than buffs. FF is a buffing set mostly. Liquefy is pure debuff. At even level liquefy+sonic shields is superior, yes. Then again you don't really need a defender for even level now do you?

 

So if the liquefy change were possible to make permanent (which currently requires the recharge cap) you're at bubbler level mitigation kind of. The power also does a defense debuff (so does the T9 FF bubble), - recharge,  and knocks people down (except Romans now, who seem to have been given weeble capability). The FF T9 offers a bunch of interesting debuffs as well as some debuff resistance for all the effects which managed to hit your softcapped team. It should also be noted that the FF T9 can be permanent with just 100% recharge slotting in the power. 

 

One of the best sonic tricks is rigging sonic repulsion for knockdown, which of course takes an IO for the purpose. This is probably the only interesting effect FF can't achieve (repel being in repulsion field). Of course to mitigate this nice trick, the endurance cost is an expensive toggle plus more cost per target knocked. 

 

Sonic then has the shared with FF useless 'get in the corner child' power (sonic cage), and then clarity which is pretty redundant with sonic dispersion. 

 

I have tricked out level 50 sonic and FF defenders. I know which one can turn a sorry team around and make it plow through things without much trouble at all. That isn't the sonic defender. 

 

 

What you are suggesting would radically change sonic resonance.  Is that in line with the spirit of the current dev team intentions? Doesn't seem like it but the can of worms of IO defense set bonuses was opened long ago so you can't really turn the clock back on that. 

 

FF was recently updated for the modern game (IO set bonuses) but Sonic was in a much better shape before the FF rework.   The reason why the Sonic Resonance changes and improvements are tiny and not sweeping so far is that it is already a strong set.  And drastic changes could make it very over powered. 

 

Fix the obvious issues first and then we can re-evaluate if SR needs more changes.  Reducing the recharge of Liquefy is a very good and important step.  Making Sonic Siphon into a true siphon is another obvious change that should happen.  And finally re-evaluating the endurance costs of several powers in the set. 

 

So in summary I disagree the set needs sweeping changes.  Fix what obviously needs to be addressed first then re-evaluate if necessary. 

Edited January 30 by Gemini2099

[Kaballah]

Defender/Corruptor Psychic Mastery Epic pool versions of Telekinesis on the test server still have the original power behavior (5 targets etc) - seems like this is an oversight, fyi.