Focused Feedback: Role Diversity Bonus

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, Indystruck said:

New Players are most likely to be told by Old Players that they can pick anything. Which is true, once you're all kitted out you can just blow through whatever at +4/x8 and be fine. Now for 8 new people who decided they want to be controllers, petless masterminds, etceteras who have expired DOs in and are like "hey let's try a Synapse", it may be a little different.

 

I’d argue a team of random 8 could still complete that Synapse. Slowly but still could be done. Also those new players probably also have no idea what Prismatic Aether are.

[Coyotedancer]

11 hours ago, TheZag said:

I like the change and hope it makes it live.  Alot of people dont seem to care for it though and im curious if there were a few alternate versions would it help at all.  Like include all 8 players are the same archtype and all are different archtypes with the current version of 5 roles filled.  You will still only be eligible for a single reward but there are multiple ways to earn it.

 

 

 

I like this idea... Have the current arrangement as one of several "extra Aether" possibilities.

 

A whole team of the same AT. A team with each of the original Hero ATs. A team with each of the original villain ATs. A team that's all Support. A team that's all Melee or all Ranged... That fulfills getting a few more PAPs in player hands and I think more accurately shows off what City is actually about.

 

We're just not playing a strongly set-role or specific role-focused game when it comes to the majority of content. Trying to tell newbies that we are limited that way feels like teaching them the wrong lesson. 

 

 

Edited January 25 by Coyotedancer

[psylum1]

If you could get this reward more than once a day per character I'd see more of the arguments.

 

You get it once a day though. You get your Shiny for the day and then don't need to think about it. You can get double the Aether by running 1 stars. 

[Psi-bolt]

15 hours ago, arcane said:

So we can’t have bonuses because some humans are too stupid to comprehend that they’re not being penalized, marginalized, or victimized by the mere existence of rewards they personally aren’t pursuing. That’s bleak shit.

 

Without disparaging folks, it's still true that some folks will want to ensure that this bonus exists and this will create certain undesirable behaviors in the playerbase as a result.

 

Just to make this concrete, these are some of the scenarios I think will happen:

1. Experienced team leader just wants to do a Positron I TF.  They want to get it done ASAP.  They invite 7 random people with no concern at all about PA since they have 300 in their SG base.  One or more team members, prior to starting the TF complain that they don't have a diverse team.  Leader either acquiesces to their desires or people are now salty, people quit, etc.
2. Conversely, new team leader, having built up the gumption to form their own team, tries to fill.  They get 4 of the standard AT and a HEAT/VEAT that would fill it out.  They have to argue with folks that they now have the bonus despite the visual cue.  
3. Also, in the same scenario, the new team leader doesn't even know about the bonus and has a similar issue with the experienced team leader in no.1.  This discourages them from trying to build teams in the future. 

Sure, folks might not think these are big issues, but they interject some negativity where none was before.  

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Sorry, but I had to hide some posts for arguing back and forth in this feedback thread.

 

What the devs would like to see: 

• I like this because [reasons]
• I don't like this because [reasons]
• or best of all:  I tried this on test server and found [findings]

You should not be arguing with each other.

 

Thanks.

 

[Seed22]

The crummy thing about this particular feature is it really cant be given a large sample size for testing until its live

[psylum1]

Based on other features implemented here's what will likely go down: For about 5-14 days this will get buzz, then people will realize "oh hey we can just form a posi 1 and recruit for the PAP, do it in 20 minutes, and cash out check." Then because it's limited to once a day per character continue to do that on other characters and while everyone else goes about their day.

[Coyotedancer]

You do sort of need the larger community to see how the social aspects of it may work out in the larger community, yeah... 😐

[gameboy1234]

15 hours ago, TheZag said:

Im curious if there were a few alternate versions would it help at all.  Like include all 8 players are the same archtype and all are different archtypes with the current version of 5 roles filled.  You will still only be eligible for a single reward but there are multiple ways to earn it.

 

3 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

 

I like this idea... Have the current arrangement as one of several "extra Aether" possibilities.

 

A whole team of the same AT. A team with each of the original Hero ATs. A team with each of the original villain ATs. A team that's all Support. A team that's all Melee or all Ranged... That fulfills getting a few more PAPs in player hands and I think more accurately shows off what City is actually about.

 

I like it too, rather a lot and more than the original idea.  A "Team Composition Challenge" might be a fun idea to add to the gameplay.  I do like the "original five" and the "villainous five" challenges.  Back on Champion we had Tanker Tuesday where all tanker teams would do missions together.  All "x" missions would be fun, curated a bit just to make sure we don't add one that's too hard (all blaster? just bring Vengeance).  All tanker, all scrapper lock all the time, all defender, all controller, all dom, all VEAT (soldiers and widows), these sound like neat ideas for a extra game play idea.

 

If this is pitched as a "fun extra" rather than "learn to play" I think a lot of the original objections go away, because now you're not telling people it's how you *should* play.

 

 

[psylum1]

At most this will encourage people to go "Hey we're just missing a support for the RD bonus. See if a Mastermind or Defender is out there. If not we'll get it next time"

[arcane]

2 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Sorry, but I had to hide some posts for arguing back and forth in this feedback thread.

 

What the devs would like to see: 

• I like this because [reasons]
• I don't like this because [reasons]
• or best of all:  I tried this on test server and found [findings]

You should not be arguing with each other.

 

Thanks.

 

I like this because it seeks to give less meta roles and playstyles a seat at the table and because it gives us another completely optional source of Prismatic Aethers.

[Paradox Fate]

4 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Sorry, but I had to hide some posts for arguing back and forth in this feedback thread.

 

What the devs would like to see: 

• I like this because [reasons]
• I don't like this because [reasons]
• or best of all:  I tried this on test server and found [findings]

You should not be arguing with each other.

 

Thanks.

 

I don't like this because this feels like a low-level attempt to introduce this system under the pretext by providing more Primatic Aethers to players. If you want to make certain AT's more wanted in groups, then you should try to make the AT's themselves more attractive to play (I look at you, V/HEATS).

 

There are enough systems in place where you can give folks a extra PA or two for a job well done, so I'd rather have you fine-tune what's already in the game.

Edited January 25 by Paradox Fate

[Doc_Scorpion]

I think some folks need to scroll back up and actually read and understand how this bonus works.  It's not a Mission Complete award, it's a Task/Strike Force award...  And given the effort it takes to complete a Task/Strike Force, it's highly likely that nobody who desires a reward is going to want to invest the time and energy on a Task/Strike Force where they know they won't get the reward. (That is, there won't be "ah well, we'll get it next time.")  This goes squared and cubed if they have more than one character they want to get the reward on that day.   Dailies are socially corrosive, distort gameplay, and we don't need either here in the City.  I oppose them on principle.


Where there is a reward, there is pressure to get that reward as swiftly and efficiently as possible.  We see that with AE farming.  We see that with the WST.  We see that with badge collecting.  We see it with people who'll drop what they're doing to collect a few Merits from knocking out a GM.  (Heck, even powerleveling partially stems from that same impulse.)  We see that every day of every week.

We don't need to gather data by letting it go live. Humans will behave in the future in the way they have in the past and behave currently.  You simply cannot in good faith argue otherwise.

And if you've played long enough, you saw the chaos around the farming nerfs and the removal of the base teleport macro, and I have no desire to go through that crap again.

The only way to limit the damage is to change the reward period to weekly, and it's better not to implement it at all.

[Xiddo]

I really like the idea of this bonus. It feels not big enough to be an argument if we don’t have the right people, and a nice bonus if I get it. Most TF/SFs I’m in tend to be fairly balanced on this metric anyway. In fact I might do a load of TFs on Saturday and just take a little tally of which ones tick this box, completely coincidentally.

Also, my main is a PB so at least I can contribute more than dazzling lights and tentacles 😉

 

I think perhaps some might also be over-estimating how many people actually read release notes (or the forums tbf). There are still people logging on asking where the AE in Atlas is, what Dr Aeon SF is, and when the new sonic powers were added. If this hit live tomorrow I’m not sure that many people would notice until they’ve done like 3 or 4 TFs and saw the icon.

[Bastille Boy]

I like the idea of having a small reward for team compositions that are either more challenging or more interesting in some way. I don't like the specific proposal because it would convey false information about the relationship between archetype and team role. (Corruptors and controllers aren't support?)

 

How about something like this?

 

Team Composition Challenge: 1 prismatic aether for completing a TF on a team that has  any of these five features:

1. No Duplicates: At least five players, all different archetypes.
2. Same Archetype: At least five players, all the same archetype.
3. Classic Blueside: All Blueside archetypes, including at least five different archetypes. Duplicates are allowed.
4. Classic Redside: All Redside archetypes, including at least five different archetypes. Duplicates are allowed.
5. Small team: Either two or three players on the team.

[gameboy1234]

38 minutes ago, Bastille Boy said:

I don't like the specific proposal because it would convey false information about the relationship between archetype and team role. (Corruptors and controllers aren't support?)

 

I think I have to agree.  Asked to come down on one side or another, I'd have to go with I don't like it.  It purports to tell people how to play (that's what Cobalt actually said) while doing something different.  Better to make it a fun challenge sort of thing than trying to make it instructional.  Thus I'd like to see something like the lists of challenges like some folks have started proposing (like Bastille Boy just above) rather than trying to evaluate the correct "role" for individual archetypes.

 

[DoctorDitko]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:26 AM, Andreah said:

However, failing that, how about the Yahtzee! method:

A) Any five unique AT's on the team

B) Any five of the same AT on the team

Ya beat me to it! Seconded!

[Reiska]

18 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Sorry, but I had to hide some posts for arguing back and forth in this feedback thread.

 

What the devs would like to see: 

• I like this because [reasons]
• I don't like this because [reasons]
• or best of all:  I tried this on test server and found [findings]

You should not be arguing with each other.

 

Thanks.

 

Okay.  I don't like this in its current form for the reasons broadly expressed by Doc_Scorpion.  I do think there should be additional vectors for PAs over what we currently have.  I don't think this specific one is a good idea.

 

Several other posters in this thread have all made good suggestions for alternatives like Andreah, Dispari, and Bastille Boy.  I would add to that pile that I think it would be a good additional fungible reward for joining additional WST runs beyond the one that gives you double merits in a week.  Yes, I realize you already get a badge for that.  Badges aren't fungible, a fungible reward will be a stronger incentive.  (Not that people have issues getting WST runs generally, just, if there needs to be more PA vectors - and I think there does - this seems like an easy vector for them!)

 

Unfortunately, as some others have noted, there isn't much to actually test on Brainstorm about this change beyond the sheer fact of whether it awards correctly or not - the psychological effects of it on the playerbase at large are not ever going to be testable in a beta environment because it's simply not a useful sample.

[Troo]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:19 PM, TheZag said:

I like the change and hope it makes it live.  Alot of people dont seem to care for it though and im curious if there were a few alternate versions would it help at all.  Like include all 8 players are the same archtype and all are different archtypes with the current version of 5 roles filled.  You will still only be eligible for a single reward but there are multiple ways to earn it.

 

 

So as you're thinking it would have to be a team of 8?

Anything less wouldn't have the opportunity for the bonus? (just discussing, I appreciate the different viewpoints)

 

 

19 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Sorry, but I had to hide some posts for arguing back and forth in this feedback thread.

 

What the devs would like to see: 

• I like this because [reasons]
• I don't like this because [reasons]
• or best of all:  I tried this on test server and found [findings]

You should not be arguing with each other.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Thanks for this oh great GooglyMoogly

 

 

Edited January 26 by Troo

[TheZag]

I gave some examples,  thanks for trying to find anything to nit pick at though.

 

I doubt the free bonus reward will make it live anyway.  The devs offer free stuff and there is 9.5 pages of people saying how terrible it is.  I like the idea,  but for those who felt it was exclusionary,  i offered a more inclusive option.  So most would probably require a full team other than what is already planned plus all original hero and original villain ATs unless the devs want to do 5 points towards a theme activates it to avoid having 2 theme teams on the same team.

  

[ranagrande]

I don't like the original idea, and have already stated my reasons.  Several people have posted alternative suggestions in this thread that I would wholeheartedly support.

[arcane]

20 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I doubt the free bonus reward will make it live anyway.  The devs offer free stuff and there is 9.5 pages of people saying how terrible it is. 

Yeah, no chance of it going live at this point. Our playerbase despises free and completely optional bonuses apparently.

[Wravis]

I tried skimming through 10 pages and didn't see a response, so sorry in advance if I missed it but:

Is there a reason Arachnos Widow is not support? One half of the Arachnos Widow specializations is melee support with no control whatsoever. I pick Night Widow Training and I am melee and support. I don't get a single power that has a control effect.

Dispari brought this up in the first comment and there was no direct response, just "VEATS count for three roles".

It's the wrong role 1/2 the time. They should never count towards control, because even Fortunatas offer support. Every Widow offers support.

Edited January 26 by Wravis

[PeregrineFalcon]

11 minutes ago, Wravis said:

Is there a reason Arachnos Widow is not support?

Yes.

 

It's the same reason why Force Field Defenders and Masterminds are support but Force Field Corruptors and Controllers are not.

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Yeah, no chance of it going live at this point. Our playerbase despises free and completely optional bonuses apparently.

I dunno, it may still go live, but as something different. I dont care either way being honest, you get more PAPs doing HM 1 of which I am certain all the naysayers have never nor will ever do