IO Sets with Level Caps... Do you ever use them?

[ThatGuyCDude]

Enhancements with the 'Effective until Level 20/30' nonsense... do you ever use them?  I always auction off the recipes when I get them, since I won't get any endgame benefit from them otherwise.  Still, some of their set bonuses are interesting and their proc effects intrigue me.  A few sell for quite a lot, too, which makes me think I'm missing something.

Do you ever think it might be more fun to make builds if those sets didn't have an effectiveness level ceiling?

(This is specifically about level-capped IO Sets and NOT the Praetorian/START enhancements.  I'm wondering why the former aren't evergreen like the 'training' inventions, and how the game might be different if they were.  Basically, I'm hoping to gather opinions here before I inadvertently make a jerk of myself in the Suggestions subforum)

[Marine X]

I am not aware of any Enhancement sets that become Ineffective beyond a certain level. There are sets that only appear in a certain level range, say 10-25 but you can continue to get their benefits after you pass their level range, also you can attune them to somewhat scale them to your level.  Most sets have a Minimum effective level and it varies by the set, and others require you to be level 50 before you can even install them. 

 

The start enhancements are their own thing, I believe they remain effective at any level but the associated PROC that comes with each one only works to a certain level.

[Marine X]

An example of one that is very popular but has limited level range:

 

Steadfast Protection is a Resist Damage enhancement set in the Invention System. It is available in the 10-30 level range.

There are three enhancements in this set:

Steadfast Protection: Resistance/Endurance,
Steadfast Protection: Resistance/Defense Unique Global, and
Steadfast Protection: Knockback Protection Global ( +4 ).
Only one of each of these types of enhancements may be slotted per power, except for unique enhancements which, if present, are limited to one per build.

The following set bonuses apply when slotting more than one of the enhancements in this set into a single power:

Two enhancements increases Recovery by 1.5%.
Three enhancements increases maximum Health by 1.5%

 

It offers a Unique Combo of Resist Damage, Defense and Knockback Protection but only needs 3 slots for the Whole Set.

[Sovera]

No, they are useless. There are some cherry picked ones like Kinetic Combat and Steadfast Protection (just the proc), but the OG devs expected us to spend a couple of weeks in the low levels. Now we spend two hours in the low levels.

 

One QoL I'd like would be for all sets to be slotted by level 10 instead of having arbitrary minimum level. It's busywork to wait until 17 or 27 to slot something and in the meanwhile use a filler.

[Herotu]

The game is full of stupid side-rules. Example: Why only 5 of any bonus, and why allow people to slot them if they've got 5 already? Boobytraps galore!

[hoodedKitsune]

I think it was more so a design with rules that tried to keep characters from being "overpowered" but that was like way before the incarnate system which in so many ways throws the whole not being OP out the window.  Most so I wonder if a lot of the old rules in some ways are outdated more so when updates and redesigns to Enemy types, that said (haha) I am nowhere near smart enough to know how you would undo some of those old rules and not break the game in someway haha!

[Uun]

3 hours ago, Marine X said:

There are sets that only appear in a certain level range, say 10-25 but you can continue to get their benefits after you pass their level range, also you can attune them to somewhat scale them to your level. 

Sets that cap at lvl 25 or 30 don't provide enhancement values beyond those levels even if they're attuned. The in-game tool tips provided for those enhancements at higher levels are in error.  For example, if you slot attuned Steadfast Protection res/end at lvl 50, the tool tip will state it provides 15.937% resist and 26.5% end reduction. Because the set caps at lvl 30, it actually only provides 13.063% resist and 21.75% end reduction.

[Snarky]

There a few ( not tiny, but not a lot ) of set bonuses that are so perfect that even though they top out early (25, 30, 40) they fit into high end builds naturally.  Oftentimes a build is so overpowered missing out on “ basic enhancement upgrade” on a non primary power means zip. 
 

Also, when doing an alt build for low level Ouro badging these “baby sets” come in handy.  Since your enhancement values get squished so hard at 10/15/20 and even at 25 you are building for set bonuses and cramming Globals on.  

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Enhancements with the 'Effective until Level 20/30' nonsense... do you ever use them?

 

Yes. There are some very useful pieces that are in low level sets - like KB protection in the defense and damage resistance spots. One of which also adds something like 3% defense to all.

3 hours ago, Herotu said:

The game is full of stupid side-rules. Example: Why only 5 of any bonus,

... because 5 is already enough to easily min/max, perma or cap stuff and make the game stupidly easy? Personally I'd lower it to 3. And make LOTG's recharge unique.

[FupDup]

A few examples of good sub-50 sets are Touch of Death, Reactive Armor, and Decimation...notice how these all go up to level 40. There is also Cloud Senses that only goes up to 30 but has really good set bonuses (plus the fact that it only competes against one set, and that one set has extremely shitty bonuses). 

 

The ones locked to 20-30 however tend to be shit for both enhancement power and set bonuses, outside of a few unique pieces like Steadfast's +def and KB protection. There's also some bad level 40 ones like Ruin and Focused Smite. Another funny thing is that a lot of the sub-50 sets actually have a higher minimum requirement to slot than stuff like PVPs and Winters that are far more powerful too, which adds more insult to injury. 

 

Something I'd like to see is for the crappy lowbie sets to have their max cap increased to 50 and get better set bonuses to make them a truly viable slotting option to make the building minigame feel less stale than it currently is. Instead of just making the bonuses bigger, however, what I would rather have is giving each tier an additional weak bonus so they feel different compared to current sets (choice between a small number of big bonuses or a big number of smaller bonuses). 

[Seed22]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

because 5 is already enough to easily min/max, perma or cap stuff and make the game stupidly easy? Personally I'd lower it to 3. And make LOTG's recharge unique.

Most people are proc bombing not stacking 5 of sets, except for on armors maybe but even then probably not, probably mostly 3 or so of the same set. 
 

I’d have to look at my builds to see whats up but yeah, not a lot of 5’s. 
 

Making LOTG unique. Interesting take, not a good one tbh but interesting

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Something I'd like to see is for the crappy lowbie sets to have their max cap increased to 50 and get better set bonuses to make them a truly viable slotting option to make the building minigame feel less stale than it currently is. Instead of just making the bonuses bigger, however, what I would rather have is giving each tier an additional weak bonus so they feel different compared to current sets (choice between a small number of big bonuses or a big number of smaller bonuses). 

never take away/alter.  people use this stuff

 

always add

[FupDup]

14 minutes ago, Snarky said:

never take away/alter.  people use this stuff

 

always add

I didn't ask for anything to be removed, people who still slotted currently crap sets like Salvo or Bonesnap would still have them. They'd just get a little bit stronger so it's less of a noob trap kind of choice. 

 

Here's an example using an existing set, Volley Fire. This is how it currently looks: 

 

 

This is a potential revamp of it: 

 

 

Nothing got removed, only added. 

Edited July 14 by FupDup

[tidge]

19 hours ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Enhancements with the 'Effective until Level 20/30' nonsense... do you ever use them?

 

I always use Cloud Senses and never Siphon Insight, and almost always 4-slotted.

[MonteCarla]

I use Basilisk's Gaze pretty often, 4-slotting it for Recovery, Energy/Ranged Def and +7.5% global recharge. 
Yes, the enhancement values do stop increasing after level 30, but the set bonuses more than make up for that. 

 

And Cloud Senses (also caps at 30), Luck of the Gambler (caps at 40)

 

Sets that cap at 20 - I never use them except for special pieces like Achilles Heel -Res proc.

 

[kelika2]

I have more and more alts that are using second or third builds for low level play.  something like fisticuffsx3 and slugfestx3 in a melee power

Kinetic Combat is still great for Bio and Willpower since they both come with innate high elemental defense and low s/l def

Something like Serendipity for ninja or firefarmers

And my pre-level 47 masterminds I use 4/5 Commanding Presence(skip taunt/placate), 1 Brilliant Leadership acc/dmg/end, and 1 pet buff IO.  like a ninja/ta will benefit more from call to arms: defense.  and a demon/thermal would benefit more from sovereign right: resist

And I have a handful of alts that use Ruin set for aoe def

Also Decimation for a lot of blast/corr/defs

[ThatGuyCDude]

Okay, so I was confused by the language of their descriptions; I believed they were just going to stop having any effect after their level cap, but they're actually just fixed in power after that point.  The attuned enhancement selection was a large contributing factor in that confusion, which in any other context makes no sense at all.  I mean, of course a level 30 IO works as a level 30 at any level, that's exactly how the 'training' recipes work!  Why couldn't I understand that?  o_O
Maybe the Praetorian enhancements from the START vendor contributed to that confusion, they have similar language and their effects actually DO deactivate after level 20 as far as I am aware.

Knowing that the procs don't go dark after that level opens a lot of possibilities for me... I love making two-piece franken-sets and with this new knowledge I have a LOT more combinations to play with.  Thank you everyone for your input.

(I also agree a standard 7-50 level range would make the whole thing a lot less confusing and might even balance out their prices on the consignment house, but I don't feel strongly enough to propose that as a formal suggestion.  Others more informed on the subject would make a stronger argument for it anyway.)

[Maelwys]

Aside from all the fun globals/procs, I tend to use Eradication (Lv30 cap PBAoE Damage) quite a bit for +Energy Defence and +MaxHP...

..and sometimes Cloud Senses (Lv30 cap Accurate ToHit Debuff) for +Energy Resistance and +Global Recharge.... and Reactive Armor (Lv40 cap Damage Resistance) for +Smashing/Lethal Resistance and +Energy Defence... and Touch of Death (Lv40 cap Melee Damage) for +Smashing/Lethal Resistance and +Melee Defence... and Kinetic Combat (Lv35 cap Melee Damage) for S/L Defence... and Shield Breaker (Lv30 Accurate Defence Debuff) for +Smashing/Lethal Resistance and +AoE Defence...

Yeah, there're actually quite a few low-level-capping enhancement sets that provide very useful set bonuses.

I very rarely 6-slot an enhancement set into a power; it's all about the build goals and set bonuses so Frankenslotting some lower-capped enhancement sets are fair game.

[Marine X]

22 hours ago, Uun said:

The in-game tool tips provided for those enhancements at higher levels are in error.

Good to know, I think most people use these for the -knockback and the set bonuses anyway.

[Ukase]

So, there's still some information to unravel here. 

First - it's worth pointing out that when you compare the same four pieces of Touch of Death with the same 4 pieces of Kinetic Combat...damn language skills. (or lack of) - what I mean is this: 
 

  vs 
 160.7 Damage                                          166.1 Damage

Now, it's less than 6 pts worth of damage difference, as ToD stops at level 40, and Kin Combat stops at level 35. For the casual player, not too big of a deal. But for the dps hungry trying to squeeze out every advantage they can, the choice to go with these depends on whether the power chosen is actually going to be used, or is a mule, a power chosen with no intention of being used, just there for whatever set bonus the IOs can provide. 

Now, the ToD offers us something the Kin Combat doesn't - a useful damage proc. It's also a 6 piece set, where kin combat is only 5. And kin combat offers a proc that I don't think anyone is going to worry too much about, a knockdown bonus. Fine mitigation, but no dps. 

This is why most of my armored characters use the sets that cap at 50, not 40 or 30. There may be diminishing returns, but those are still returns. 
 

On 7/14/2024 at 2:28 AM, ThatGuyCDude said:

A few sell for quite a lot, too, which makes me think I'm missing something.

What you may not be thinking of is converting these into IOs that sell for more. 

Luck of the Gambler, Kismet, Achilles Heel, various damage IOs..all of these have an impact on the price of the IOs that can be converted into one of these higher priced IOs. 

Red Fortune recipes selling for 1.4M because someone is crafting them, and converting them into LotG 7.5%, I imagine. Selling them for 5M, it would seem. The crafting and salvage costs are minimal, so not considering the opportunity cost of converters, they're making 2.5M or so per sale. Hopefully, they're smart enough to pay a little more in crafting costs at level 41, rather than 25. Otherwise the converter costs will run higher given the other sets also available below level 40. 


 

[Erratic1]

44 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Now, it's less than 6 pts worth of damage difference, as ToD stops at level 40, and Kin Combat stops at level 35. For the casual player, not too big of a deal. But for the dps hungry trying to squeeze out every advantage they can, the choice to go with these depends on whether the power chosen is actually going to be used, or is a mule, a power chosen with no intention of being used, just there for whatever set bonus the IOs can provide. 

Now, the ToD offers us something the Kin Combat doesn't - a useful damage proc. It's also a 6 piece set, where kin combat is only 5. And kin combat offers a proc that I don't think anyone is going to worry too much about, a knockdown bonus. Fine mitigation, but no dps. 

 

I suspect most people love Kinetic Combat for only consuming 4 slots to get to 3.75% Smash/Melee Def, particularly if their defensive set uses typed, not positional, defense.

[TheMoncrief]

It is worth noting that you can, IIRC, use an Enhancement Booster on leveled sets to go past their official max level. Usually nobody does that except for stuff at level 50, but if you really want the set bonus from Kinetic Combat or Basilisk's Gaze, but desperately need more enhancement value, you can squeeze out a few extra points at the cost of a few Enhancement Boosters. It seems weird to me to spend 1 million Inf up to five times to boos an enhancement that only cost 2 million Inf to obtain, but... if that's what your min/maxing soul wants, it does get you a little extra power out of your sets without abandoning their highly desirable set bonuses.

[tidge]

8 minutes ago, TheMoncrief said:

It is worth noting that you can, IIRC, use an Enhancement Booster on leveled sets to go past their official max level. Usually nobody does that except for stuff at level 50, but if you really want the set bonus from Kinetic Combat or Basilisk's Gaze, but desperately need more enhancement value, you can squeeze out a few extra points at the cost of a few Enhancement Boosters.

 

I forgo attuned pieces and go with 50(+5) from sets for powers that require things like both Accuracy and Recharge, so Analyze Weakness is a typical candidate. +10% Regeneration (the 2-piece bonus for that set) is one of those bonuses that for anything but a Tanker or Brute would be almost impossible to observe, unless somehow that was the only source of +Regeneration, and the character was constantly taking damage. YMMV.

 

[Herotu]

23 hours ago, Greycat said:

... because 5 is already enough to easily min/max, perma or cap stuff and make the game stupidly easy? Personally I'd lower it to 3. And make LOTG's recharge unique.

I think it's an inelegant band-aid solution that adds to a mountain of insider knowledge which isn't conducive to a newb-friendly environment. CoH has far too many of these hidden rules that make mids a necessity rather than optional.

[Hedgefund]

In my lifetime I've 3 slotted Explosive Strike, a set that tops at 20, +5ing the two boostable pieces, which takes the values from awful to just a  hair below mediocre.  The proc is nice and I was chasing ranged def.  I wish I could remember which character this was, I'd like to check what I put in the other 3 slots but my recollection was at the end of the day it met my targets.

 

My problem with Kinetic Combat is not the damage, but the set has accuracy in only one piece, offering a hair under 23% accuracy enhancement at lvl 35 and beyond, boosted +5 takes it to almost 29%..  So unless it's a pure mule you have to dedicate more slots to make up for this.